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Volvo XC70 Safety Issues

135

Comments

  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Not exactly even.
    The Pilot doesn't offer the Roll Stability system, nor does it have the Boron reinforced roll cage, seat belt pretensioners for all seating positions or anti wiplash seats.
  • linerliner Posts: 2
    There is a system on the Pilot called Vehicle Stability Assist with Traction Control that is comparable to Electronic Stability Control (generic term, not Volvo). It also has seat belt pretensioners for front and rear, which may or may not include the 3rd row (I will check that). Agreed that there is no mention of a boron steel roll cage or anti-whiplash seats (whatever that is). Besides those 2 features I don't see much difference in the two cars from a safety standpoint.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Stability and Roll stability are two different things.
    Stability control is a yaw program, keeps cars from spinning out. Roll stability keeps cars from flipping over.

    Anti whiplash seats are seats that in the event of a rear impact will tilt up to 15 degrees limiting the whiplash forces being transmitted to the front seat occupants and reducing the potential for whiplash by 50%.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "Stability and Roll stability are two different things. "

    Since the Pilot and XC70 (and XC90) have identical 4 star rollover ratings, it would appear that the Honda has better engineering, because it doesn't need a rollover stability program to achive it's rating.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    Roll stability keeps cars from flipping over

    Aside from cutting engine power and applying brakes what does it do to keep the vehicle from flipping over?

    Does it extend the trainig wheels out to the sides to keep the SUV from flipping over?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Since NO ONE actually tests roll over, the rating system is useless.
    All they do is take the length of the vehicle, its weight and wheelbase and height and come up w/ a formula.
    No one TRIES to roll a car over and see how it really does.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Aside from cutting engine power and applying brakes what does it do to keep the vehicle from flipping over?

    Does it extend the trainig wheels out to the sides to keep the SUV from flipping over?


    That is usually enough.
    The system starts w/ a gyro sensor that determines roll angle vs how fast the car is moving forward.
    If the vehicle is turning left, for instance the roll sensor determines that the car is pitching right too far too fast for the suspension to recover. The system then locks the brake on the LR wheel. The drag on the LR causes the car to return to level and for the rear wheels to break traction for an instant. This action will stop a vehicle from rolling over.
    No outriggers are necessary.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    Aside from cutting engine power and applying brakes what does it do to keep the vehicle from flipping over?

    Does it extend the trainig wheels out to the sides to keep the SUV from flipping over?


    That is usually enough.
    The system starts w/ a gyro sensor that determines roll angle vs how fast the car is moving forward.
    If the vehicle is turning left, for instance the roll sensor determines that the car is pitching right too far too fast for the suspension to recover. The system then locks the brake on the LR wheel. The drag on the LR causes the car to return to level and for the rear wheels to break traction for an instant. This action will stop a vehicle from rolling over.
    No outriggers are necessary.


    Of course I know how VEHICLE STABILITY CONTROL system works. The question I asked was how does Roll-over control system work, that was being touted as vastly different and superior to VSC, and you walked right into it. :-)

    In the end it is just a different name for the same system.
  • rodutrodut Posts: 343
    So, if I understand correctly, you want more electronic gizmos on your cars, authorized to brake and steer your cars. But after a certain age, any system will malfunction.

    Those "safety" systems will kill you when they will become defective !!! The bad sensor, or the rusted grounding, will send the wrong information to the computer, and the damn car will steer by itself, on a sunny day on dry pavement ! Can't you see it ? It's obvious man. No cheap diagnostic system can take into consideration all the possible malfunctions. And they have to be cheap, because these days there are websites dedicated to teach buyers about how to negotiate the car price as close as possible to the car manufacturer bankruptcy limit.

    On one side you want cheap, on the other side you want the fanciest electronics enabled to brake and steer your cars, as they like. That's a recipe for disaster. You enable a cheap car to kill you.

    Either leave it expensive, or don't enable it to kill !
  • calhoncalhon Posts: 87
    VSC and and other ESC systems do not have gyro sensors to determine roll angle/rate. That's the difference.
  • daedae Posts: 143
    VSC and and other ESC systems do not have gyro sensors to determine roll angle/rate. That's the difference

    ESC systems where first developed by Bosch for Mercedes A-class. They all use steering-wheel angle sensor in combination with yaw sensor.

    Honda's version also has roll-over sensor to deploy curtain air-bag.

    Please do not post nonsense.

    Another point here was about boron steel. There is no magic in stronger steel. You can achieve the exact same effect with thicker steel. Please, spare us buzzword filled salesmen talk. The only point is - vehicle engineered paying with attention paid to reinforced occupant cage and crush zones. Honda does it just as well as Volvo, in particular with ACE cars, such as Odyssey.
  • calhoncalhon Posts: 87
    ESC systems where first developed by Bosch for Mercedes A-class. They all use steering-wheel angle sensor in combination with yaw sensor.

    Honda's version also has roll-over sensor to deploy curtain air-bag.

    Please do not post nonsense.


    Yaw is sideways movement or rotation about a vertical axis such that the vehicle is off its intended path, e.g., a skid. Roll is rotation about a longitudinal horizontal axis. ESC systems have yaw sensors but NO roll sensors.

    Honda's rollover sensor simply deploys the airbags if a rollover occurs. There is no interaction with the ESC system (VSA) to prevent rollovers.

    The XC90 has a full-fledged ESC system (DSTC) that includes active yaw control; i.e., inputs from the steering wheel, wheel speed and yaw sensors are used to control vehicle dynamics by throttle modulation and 4-wheel independent braking. Additionally, it has active roll control, whereby inputs from roll sensor(s) are also used to adjust vehicle dynamics via the DSTC system to help prevent rollovers.

    Incidentally, the XC90 curtain airbags are designed to deploy in a rollover and remain inflated for an extended period to provide head protection - same functionality as Honda's rollover sensor.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    With all that gadgetry, what is left for the driver to do? Does Volvo even offer XC90 with a MANUAL TRANSMISSON?

    How about letting the driver make those educated desisions. And if the driver is INCAPABLE of driving, how about TAKING THE BUS?

    To me, all those gadgets are just a hindering to driving. What if I want to drive on the 2 wheels on one side? At least I can completley turn off VSC in the Honda. And If I want to drive in 5th gear at 30 mph, I can, likewise, I can drive 80 mph in 3rd if I want to. And if I want the rear to swing out as I make a tight turn, I can, because I control the car, not the car controlling me
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Another point here was about boron steel. There is no magic in stronger steel. You can achieve the exact same effect with thicker steel. Please, spare us buzzword filled salesmen talk. The only point is - vehicle engineered paying with attention paid to reinforced occupant cage and crush zones. Honda does it just as well as Volvo, in particular with ACE cars, such as Odyssey.

    Obviously, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Why would you need thicker steel, which makes a car heavier and cuts fuel efficency if you can achieve BETTER results with a harder stronger alloy?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    With all that gadgetry, what is left for the driver to do? Does Volvo even offer XC90 with a MANUAL TRANSMISSON?

    Because not enough people want a manual XC90 to justify building one.

    You can turn off the DSTC system in the XC90(But not the RSC system).
    With the Geartronic you can drive in whatever gear you want and the system won't change gears, even at redline.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    ESC systems where first developed by Bosch for Mercedes A-class. They all use steering-wheel angle sensor in combination with yaw sensor.

    As others have posted, and I'm sure you are aware, yaw is different than roll.
    Yaw is a sliding motion. Roll is a pitching motion.
    It is possible to have a rollover without any yaw motion at all.

    Honda's version also has roll-over sensor to deploy curtain air-bag.

    Hondas version deploys the airbag when a rollover is IN PROGRESS. It does nothing to actually prevent a rollover from occuring.
  • stmssstmss Posts: 206
    How about letting the driver make those educated desisions. And if the driver is INCAPABLE of driving, how about TAKING THE BUS?

    Unfortunately they don't make enough buses! All this rollover and anti skid technology is a result of early SUVs getting a bad reputation due to people driving them like performance cars - remember the Trooper or early Bronco - vehicle design or driver, maybe bit of both? And of course, from that is companies being sued.

    Every year, at the first snow fall, it is the SUVs in the ditch.
  • calhoncalhon Posts: 87
    To improve safety, you must build cars and the traffic infrastructure taking into consideration how people actually behave. You don't make the ridiculous assumption of the perfect driver, or that people will do what you very well know they won't - like taking the bus. That doesn't mean drivers have no responsibility, but even the best drivers make mistakes.

    Let's put aside imprudent behavior for the moment. How many drivers have the training AND the practice to control a skid at 40+ mph due to sudden changes in road conditions, such as a puddle of water, an ice patch or gravel? How many can safely maneuver around an unexpected obstacle at moderate or higher speeds?

    The answer on both counts is probably less than 5% and that's not going to change. If you're in the tiny minority, you are still at risk from the over 95 out of 100 drivers without those skills ... even when you're not on the road. You could be mowed down by an out-of-control SUV in your front yard or living room.
  • Of course I know how VEHICLE STABILITY CONTROL system works. The question I asked was how does Roll-over control system work, that was being touted as vastly different and superior to VSC, and you walked right into it.

    In the end it is just a different name for the same system.


    Actually, and this is often omited by many description, there is a point at which the XC90's roll-over control behaves quite opposite to other conventional systems, and this makes all the difference.
    In a situation, where "conventional" Electonic Stability Control system will keep the pivoting wheel locked, because of the yaw sensor, the gyro sensor will override it, unlocking the wheel momentarily, allowing for the lateral move to prevent a roll-over.

    The engineering behind of this system is truly amazing, and in my particular case, I believe it has saved lives of my entire family when I had to perform the "moose avoidance" maneuver on a pin-sharp blind 180 degree turn on the edge of cliff somewhere between Germany and Check republic.

    I did not have time to brake and most likely would NOT make the turn at my speed, so I have recalled the Drive for Life event and just swirl the steering wheel into the direction of the turn as hard as I could. After a few moments of rocking, brake screeching (engaged by the RSC), family yelling, etc., we ended up around the corner on the right lane facing right direction.

    I would not be writing this, if not for the amazing Volvo engineering. And once is one time too many for those accidents.
  • While I agree with your notion that you can not have it both cheap and good, I would like to make a couple of comment on electronics in general.
    The electronics IS a best compromise to get the most for least money. The industrial/automotive electronic component are relatively inexpensive and unbelievably reliable. Anyone from the industrial QA will tell you that electronics on average far more reliable than the mechanical devices.
    In my driving experience, the only potentially dangerous failure I ever have was with the Honda Accord, when I loose all braking coming to the red light, and had to use a curb as a mean of slowing down. The brake master cylinder had a casting defect, and a large cavity had opened, overflowing the braking fluid around the piston.

    So - mechanical defect and Honda - but not the electronics and Volvo.

    Stuff happens. No brand is completely failure-proved.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    Let's put aside imprudent behavior for the moment. How many drivers have the training AND the practice to control a skid at 40+ mph due to sudden changes in road conditions, such as a puddle of water, an ice patch or gravel? How many can safely maneuver around an unexpected obstacle at moderate or higher speeds?

    Why not start there and MAKE people learn how to drive? I took my driving test when I was 17. I have not been re-tested since. I am 31 now, a lot can happen in 14 years. It scares me to think that 50 year olds drivng around today were tested some 35 years ago.

    And the test it self was joke. Drive straight, turn left, turn right, parallel park, make a 3 pointed u-turn. What about accident avoidance maneuvers? What about skid control?

    Some countries, Japan for example, have very stringent testing to get a driver's license. That way it limits the number of numbskulls behind the wheel posing danger to other people on the streets.

    In the US, we compensate for lack of driver's skill with bigger, heavier more electronic ladden vehicles. Why not solve the problem at the root, make every one go to Skip Barber or similar driving schools, make road tests a little more difficult than simple maneuvers. I guess, it would be too much to ask people to be responsible for their own actions.
  • Why not start there and MAKE people learn how to drive?

    Because it is impractical and impossible when it comes to the emergency avoidance maneuvers.
    I consider that I drive much better than the average driver. I was in the military service driving military vehicles in a wide variety of conditions, I took several defensive driving classes, I can drive manual for hours without using clutch, for instance, but nothing would help anyway in the situation that I have described a couple of postings above. Just because I do not do stunts everyday, my reflexes are not good enough, and could not match the electronics of my XC90, although, in theory, I new exactly what need to be done.

    Some countries, Japan for example, have very stringent testing to get a driver's license.

    Yes, but not to the degree of teaching the defensive driving anyway.

    In the US, we compensate for lack of driver's skill with bigger, heavier more electronic laden vehicles.

    This is not true. We drive bigger vehicles because they a) cheaper and b) we still can afford buying more gas than people in other countries.
    And when it comes to electronics, the European or Japanese versions of the same vehicle are pretty much the same.

    I guess, it would be too much to ask people to be responsible for their own actions.

    Yes it would, because the price for it is the death or severe injury.
  • calhoncalhon Posts: 87
    Every reasonable person would agree that better drivers are a part of the solution. Systems such as ESC and RSC are also parts of the solution. They compensate for the mistakes that people always make, and they do things that no human can.

    There is no training or testing program that will make drivers behave perfectly, or give them super-human abilities.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "There is no training or testing program that will make drivers behave perfectly, or give them super-human abilities."

    No, but you can have minimum standards. Having driven for a number of years in Germany, I can say that while it is a fast experience, the drivers are predictable in behavior, and follow the rules of the road. I think this is due to three factors:

    1. Mandatory driving classes before a license is issued.
    2. The expense of owning and driving a vehicle in Germany.
    3. Really stiff fines and very serious police officers.
  • daedae Posts: 143
    .Why would you need thicker steel, which makes a car heavier and cuts fuel efficency if you can achieve BETTER results with a harder stronger alloy?

    Obviously, you do not know what you are talking about - just mindlessly repeating buzzword from sales booklet.

    There is NOTHING special about steel used in Volvo. It is all about the basic engineering concept of stronger cage and predictable deformation in crumple zones. There are many ways to achieve that.

    And if anyting - excessive weight is Volvo's problem.

    Are you capable about discussing anything but Volvo's marketing spin on comon engineering solutions?
  • daedae Posts: 143
    As others have posted, and I'm sure you are aware, yaw is different than roll.

    And if you have actually read and comprehended what I had written you would not post nonsense.

    What I have written in the second paragrpah is that Honda has ANOTHER sensor, in ADDITION to yaw sensor in stability control. Is it that hard to read?
  • Easy, Dae.
    It's not just marketing. Volvo DOES use the steel that is several (I think x4) stronger that the normally used one.
    And Max usually KNOWS, what he is talking about, as he gets his info not just from the chat rooms.

    And, actually, Volvo XC90 is the lightest of 3 - Honda Pilot, Acura MDX, Volvo XC90.
  • Speaking of yaw, roll and nonsense....

    ...take it easy here too. As it has been already pointed out, that OTHER sensor in Honda, is not a part of the Stability system, it does not provide a feedback, but merely says "OUCH" and deploys the airbags.
    Here is a quote from Honda's marketing literature -

    "New for 2006, Pilot provides standard side curtain airbags for all three rows of seats. In addition to the protection they offer outboard occupants in the event of a side impact, these side curtain airbags are fitted with a rollover sensor to help provide protection in a rollover. Most side curtain airbags in this class are designed to provide side-impact protection, but rarely do they also provide protection in the event of a rollover."

    In this sense - Volvo has THIRD sensor, that does the same function deploying IC.

    Why it is so difficult for people to except Volvo's leadership in active and passive safety?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Dae, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Volvo does indeed use hardened steel in the cage area of the XC90.
    This use is widely reported.
    They aren't the only ones to use boron steel in the manufacture of their cars, the Germans do as well, but the XC90 represents the most widespread use of the material.
  • orbit9090orbit9090 Posts: 110
    > I tell you what. You get your Honda, I'll get a Volvo we'll hit each other head on 50 mph and see who does better.

    OK, you spend $32K on a little Volvo S40 AWD Automatic, and I'll spend $28K on a 4500lb Honda Ridgeline. Let's tango...

    Here's the last thing you will ever see...

    image
This discussion has been closed.