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Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow?

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  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    National Ethanol Vehicle Cooperative (NEVC) - Dresser Wayne has introduced the industry’s first approved E85 dispenser – the Dresser Wayne Vista ™ 387. The pump is both approved by Underwriters Laboratories (UL) and the Weights and Measures Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

    The corrosive nature of the higher blend of alcohol in E85 requires its equipment to be different to that of gasoline equipment. Dresser Wayne is partnering with CleanFUEL USA, both members of the NEVC, to offer this certified E85 compatible dispenser to retailers.

    “In bringing certified dispensers to the market, we are able to offer retailers access to the E85 market with the reliability and investment protection of industry certification. At a time when legislation is providing significant economic incentives to E85 retailers, Dresser Wayne feels it is especially important to offer proven and certified equipment,” said Scott Negley, Dresser Wayne’s director of product management.

    “We are very excited to partner with Dresser Wayne in offering this E85 certified dispenser,” commented Curtis Donaldson, President of CleanFUEL USA and Chairman of the NEVC. “This has been a milestone in the ethanol industry and CleanFUEL USA is proud to be a part of it. I would like to thank the NEVC for their assistance in this achievement.” The NEVC provided funds that assisted in the certification process.

    Dresser Wayne’s Ovation ® is planned to be certified in months to come.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition (NEVC) - Two Farmer Owned Coops Offer E85 Affordably in Missouri

    Jefferson City , MO - MFA Oil Company and Mid-Missouri Energy announced today plans to offer E85 at a cost of 20 percent less than regular unleaded at many fueling stations across Missouri. The announcement was made at MFA Oil Company headquarters in Columbia, Missouri – the city which holds the most E85 stations per capita in the nation.

    “Our goal is to help educate consumers so that E85 becomes their fuel of choice,” said Jerry Taylor, MFA Oil Company president.

    Mid-Missouri Energy is working with MFA Oil to supply the product at a rate that will allow the retailer to sell it at this low cost. MFA Oil now offers E85 at 25 Break Time and Petro-Card 24 locations across the state and plans on doubling the number in months to come. The NEVC has assisted in the opening all MFA Oil E85 fueling sites.

    MFA Oil will also offer E85 for $1.85 per gallon. One can also register to win a new flexible fuel vehicle Ford F-150 at each MFA Oil station. The vehicle will be given away at the Fire in the Sky celebration on July 4th in Columbia.

    “We are pleased to see two members of our coalition, MFA Oil Company and Mid-Missouri Energy, work closely to help Missourians obtain this renewable, locally grown fuel at a competitive price,” commented Phil Lampert, Executive Director of the NEVC. “We hope that this model where ethanol producers and ethanol retailers work in concert can be duplicated across the nation, thereby; ensuring that the final consumer will be able to take advantage of E85 priced 20 percent less than regular unleaded.”

    There are currently 58 E85 sites that are open or soon will be open in the state of Missouri. For a complete listing of these sites and all across the nation, visit www.E85Fuel.com.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    GM is manufacturing 400,000 vehicles equipped to handle E85 in 2006 to take advantage of the new 85% ethanol/ 15% gasoline mixtures. They will provide their GM staffs in Detroit with E85 dual use vehicles.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    2006

    4.7L Dodge Durango
    4.7L Dodge Ram Pickup 1500 Series
    2.7L Dodge Stratus Sedan
    2.7L Chrysler Sebring Sedan
    3.3L Caravan & Grand Caravan SE
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    2006

    3.0L Ford Taurus sedan and wagon
    4.6L Ford Crown Victoria
    4.6L Mercury Marquis
    4.6L Mercury Mariner
    5.4L Ford F-150
    4.6L Lincoln Town Car (2-valve)
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    2007

    5.3L V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD
    5.3L Vortec-engine Avalanche, Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon & Yukon XL
    3.5L Chevy Impala (LS, 1LT & 2LT)
    3.5L Chevy Monte Carlo (LS and LT models only)

    2006

    3.5L Chevy Impala (LS, 1LT & 2LT)
    3.5L Chevy Monte Carlo (LS and LT models only)

    2005 - 2006

    5.3L Vortec-engine Avalanche
    5.3L Vortec-engine Police Package Tahoe*

    2003 - 2006

    5.3L V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD
    5.3L Vortec-engine Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon and Yukon XLs
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,969
    For years, conventional wisdom was that presidential candidates could not survive the first-in-the-nation caucuses in Iowa unless they supported subsidies for the corn-based ethanol fuel. But strategists say Iowa no longer is a single-issue state - if it ever was. At least one presidential hopeful intends to test the premise.

    "Ethanol is very important, but Iowans are more sophisticated than that," said a former Iowa Republican chairman, Michael Mahaffey. "I think ethanol could be a bright part of Iowa's future, but it's only a part. I don't think there's going to be some kind of litmus test when it comes to presidential candidates."

    Republican Sen. John McCain, an early front-runner in the 2008 sweepstakes, told Iowa audiences recently that he is opposed to all farm subsidies, including special deals for ethanol production.

    That is not exactly what people are used to hearing from candidates, but it has not stopped the Arizona lawmaker from collecting some important early backing.

    "I don't think it's a make or break issue," said Steve Roberts, a Des Moines lawyer who sits on the Republican National Committee.

    Pragmatic Iowa caucus-goers take a lot into account when pondering their picks, strategists say.

    Ethanol "is an issue that is probably more important to the Iowa economy than for Iowa voters," said veteran Democratic activist Phil Roeder. "I don't think it's an exclusive issue right now for any candidate for any office."
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    2005

    2.6L C240 luxury series

    2003-2005

    3.2L Mercedes-Benz C320 sport series
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    E85 and the Environment

    E85 has the highest oxygen content of any transportation fuel available today, making it burn cleaner than gasoline. Fewer exhaust emissions result in reduced production of smog and a decline in respiratory illness associated with poor air quality. E85 also reduces greenhouse gas emissions such as carbon dioxide, the main contributor to global warming, as much as 39 to 46 percent compared to gasoline.

    Since E85's main ingredient is ethanol, which is non-toxic, water soluble and biodegradable, E85 is simply a better fuel for the world around us.

    The Argonne National Laboratory has completed several significant studies.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    GENERAL MOTORS ANNOUNCES COLLABORATION WITH STATE OF INDIANA AND MEIJER GAS STATIONS TO HELP MORE INDIANA MOTORISTS POWER THEIR GM FLEXFUEL VEHICLES WITH E85 ETHANOL

    INDIANAPOLIS – General Motors today announced that it has facilitated plans for the addition of several new E85 ethanol fueling sites throughout Indiana thanks to a collaborative partnership with Meijer and the state of Indiana. GM has been the catalyst behind several similar partnerships across the country as part of a broader, national GM campaign to boost the use and awareness of ethanol-based E85 fuel in the United States.

    The announcement was made today during a ribbon cutting to celebrate the opening of an E85 ethanol pump at the Meijer Pike Plaza 129 store. Governor Mitch Daniels and Lt. Governor Becky Skillman were on hand for the event along with U.S. Secretary of Energy, Samuel Bodman.

    “Flexible fuel vehicles and E85 are proven options for substituting a clean burning renewable fuel for gasoline, and I believe it should be our common goal that E85 become a nationwide fueling option,” Secretary Bodman said. “I want to thank Governor Daniels, Lt. Governor Skillman, GM and Meijer for their commitment to this goal. Efforts like these—to educate the public and expand the network of stations that can deliver E85 fuel—will help us meet the President’s goal to reduce our reliance on foreign sources of oil.”
    “GM already has nearly two million vehicles on the road today that are capable of using E85 ethanol fuel. ,” said Elizabeth Lowery, GM vice president of environment and energy.

    The effort is similar to announcements GM has already made with other state government, oil industry, ethanol producers, and retail partners in California, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, South Dakota and Texas. Since May of 2005, GM has announced partnerships with states and fuel providers around the country to locate, to date, up to 130 new E85 ethanol fueling locations by the end of 2006.

    Corn is the leading source of income for Indiana farmers contributing $1.45 billion annually. Indiana produces 786.9 million bushels of corn a year, providing a basis for millions of gallons of ethanol to be produced in the future. There are currently nearly 70,000 GM flexible fuel vehicles in Indiana, with a total of 90,000 flexible vehicles in the state.

    E85 flexible fuel vehicles can run on any combination of gasoline and/or E85 ethanol, a fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. E85 ethanol can contribute to energy independence because it diversifies the source of transportation fuels beyond petroleum, and it provides positive environmental benefits in the form of reduced greenhouse gas emissions.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    NEVC - Jefferson City, MO – E85 refueling locations have more than doubled in the past year, making more availability for the almost six million compatible vehicles on American roads. Unfortunately, the price at the pump has not been the most attractive in recent months.

    When using E85 in a flexible-fuel vehicle, one will receive a 5 to 12 percent mileage reduction than when using unleaded gasoline in the same vehicle. This reason is simple – E85 contains less energy, lower British Thermal Units (BTUs) than regular unleaded gasoline. Thus, to be advantageous for a consumer, the price of E85 must be lower than that of regular unleaded gasoline. Unfortunately, at this time, the price of E85 is sometimes higher than regular unleaded at many refueling locations.

    What are the factors that are resulting in these high E85 prices? One of the main reasons is that ethanol demand has recently been at an all-time high. The reasons for this unprecedented demand of ethanol is the phase out of MTBE in parts of the United States and continued reductions in refining capacity. The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in late 2005 created a gasoline shortage throughout the country and in some cases, refinery supplies are still being impacted. Major gasoline retailers needed to extend their fuel supplies, and adding a small percentage of ethanol to their gasoline blend was a short term answer.

    Most persons associated with the industry indicate believe that the high cost of E85 is short term. “The price [of E85] is higher but it is being driven by market forces due to a short term market shortage.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,969
    What are the factors that are resulting in these high E85 prices?

    No sniveling about the high price of corn ethanol. Did I say, I told you so? I hope you continue to support and run E85 in your vehicle when the price continues to rise. If not I would say that borders on hypocrisy.
  • gridflashgridflash Posts: 1
    Good post.
    It's surprising that it's taken this long to get an Industry-Approved E85 fuel dispenser.

    It's too bad that they aren't publicly traded. Cause we are going to need a lot of them.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    Removing the influence of the oil cartel or at least dissipating it is our national goal. South America and now Iran are threatening to cut off the oil spigot...this terrorist blackmail has to stop!

    It is hilarious to see even our USA TREE-HUGRs scramble, whine and ineptly try to denigrate renewable resources such as Ethanol and Biodeisal. Of course Hydrogen powered autos are decades away from being practical, just as Electric autos have been phased out as impractical so far.
    E95 and Biodeisal will allow us to push diesels technology NOW! Of course E85 continues to impact auto sales NOW.

    Ford currently is running a new ad that is advertising their E85 capable F150 as having NO price increase over 100% gasoline models. Good advertising...shows a stalk of green corn slowly turning into an E85 green corn like hose that is fueling a bright red F150...and the beat goes on...NOW! Like Mikey..."Buy it, you'll like it."
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,969
    You and I may be closer together than you think. First though I am not worried about oil being shut off from Iran. They have crap oil with real high sulfur that no one wants. That may cause them to use their big guns to take over other Middle East countries. That could be problematic. South American oil is much more stable. They talk a lot but love our money. They have horrible leaders, but not ones that have a religious fervor of hatred toward the USA.

    It is good that Ford and GM are offering FFVs for those that have access to E85. Right NOW today we are just about maxed out on what we can produce from corn. Until a process is in place to make ethanol from biomass we have reached our potential for supplying ethanol. We can waste a lot of money building more stills and without the corn to fill them it is a waste of money. You have already seen the price of E85 pass up regular. What does that mean to you. I do think biodiesel will have a more positive impact on our oil usage than ethanol over time.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Removing the influence of the oil cartel or at least dissipating it is our national goal."

    Well that's fine and dandy but raising corn for ethanol won't do it. Have you read the extensive article on ethanol in the latest (July) issue of Car and Driver?
  • jkinzeljkinzel Posts: 735
    The correct spelling is "diesel".

    I truly admire the enthusiasm and passion you have for ethanol and E85 as an alternative fuel. You also have a deep desire to rid the US of oil dependence from other countries as I’m sure most of us do.
    If you really want to eliminate our need for imported oil you would have the same enthusiasm for bio diesel as you do ethanol and I don’t see that.
    Have you written your Congressman or woman asking why more has not been done to promote diesel and bio diesel passenger cars? I have.
    Have you written your Congressman or woman asking why Congress, the President and the US auto makers are pushing ethanol and ignoring bio diesel and in fact legislating some of the most fuel efficient diesels off the market? I have.
    I got back a form letter, but at least I did something and it’s on record.
    Forgive me if I’m wrong, but with such single, narrow focus on ethanol, I can’t help but feel your enthusiasm is self serving.
  • mlbendermlbender Posts: 3
    I haven't run a full tank of E10 through yet, but if it's anything similar to my 00 Yukon 5.3 on E10, I'm expecting 14city/18hwy. I got very consistantly over 6 years of owning it. According to the fancy computer on my new truck, E10 is showing about 13.5 in mixed driving (mostly city), but that's only over about 100 miles. I'll let everyone know when I get a couple tanks through for comparison.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Of course Hydrogen powered autos are decades away from being practical, just as Electric autos have been phased out as impractical so far

    Actually I'm reading that automakers like Honda and BMW are going to be introducing hydrogen vehicles way ahead of schedule. Maybe in 3-4 years.

    If ethanol's viability is based on large government subsidies I think the idea of practicality goes out the window. Electric vehicles have already been proven. They may only have a limited range but it is more than adequate for the vast majority of commuters. So the main problem is the expensive battery pack that adds $10k or more to the price of the vehicle. No problem. Let the government subsidize this amount and, voila, its practical.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    All I am saying is that Ethanol and E85 are available NOW, not like Hydrogen fuels that have No infrastructure and right now are as unsafe as a mixture of fertilizer and diesel oil...explosive resistant tanks have yet to be built.

    There is a Biodiesel plant being built about 20-30 miles south of here. The problem with biodiesel is the same as for Ethanol...where do we get enough raw material? States like California will never accept Ethanol or Biodiesel...too bad!

    I am not on any Ethanol bandwagon except it is a renewable resource available to us now and can be used in 12 million autos today, not tomorrow. Both Ethanol and Biodiesel are proven to be winners today and do cut down on our imported oil usage.

    We will evolve solutions over time, there is an E95 solution to the diesel problem right now, but nobody is building any plants. Diesels will be used in passenger autos more and more. However, Ethanol can be used today in today's gasoline engines where biodiesel can only be used in a major way in our diesel trucks.

    South America, Venezuela and Bolivia, have openly espoused their hatred of the USA getting their oil and of course Iran has generated this kind of hatred for many years.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    All I am saying is that Ethanol and E85 are available NOW, not like Hydrogen fuels that have No infrastructure and right now are as unsafe as a mixture of fertilizer and diesel oil...explosive resistant tanks have yet to be built.

    I've read there are only 500 filling stations that sell E85 and they are primarily located in the midwest. So for most of the country the infrastructure does not exist and will require a large investment. There are more hydrogen fueling stations in Southern California than E85. The idea that a hydrogen fuel tank is as unsafe and explosive as a mixture of diesel and fertilizer is just bizarre. There are test fleets of these vehicles and buses being driven throughout the world and so far none have blown up. BTW, there aren't 12 million FFVs on the road, its 5 million and most of the drivers of them choose to fill up with regular gas.
  • fireball1fireball1 Posts: 30
    Hey, folks, something has to give here. Corn plantings are down 5 percent because of the skyrocketing cost of natural gas fertilizer. But ethanol's share of corn continues to rise. That leaves less corn for cattlefeeding which, frankly, is not all that bad a thing. But if natural gas prices continue to steadily climb, you can expect nationwide corn plantings to decrease. And you can expect ethanol plants to go with coal instead of natural gas, a real pollution-intensive alternative that the American public won't buy once they catch wind of it. The solution: Get the hell off corn ASAP! Reduce corn subsidies to save our environment. Subsidize the growth of other ethanol fuelstuffs instead of throwing millions down the corn drain, thus destroying the environment in which it grows and eliminating the number of farms in our countryside. Ethanol from corn is a part of an unhealthy food system and an ag system that needs to be revamped.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,969
    I've been preaching that since this thread began. Some cannot fathom that growing a crop can cause as much damage as growing corn with current Mega farm methods. It is polluting the streams and rivers to a very high level. So much so that the Mississippi Delta will soon be completely dead. In their greed to get more tax dollars companies like ADM are building more coal fired stills. Coal is about 1/6th the cost of natural gas to use. More pollution there. I wish I could see ethanol through the same rose colored glasses others see it. The only silver lining I can see, is ethanol from biomass as produced by Iogen of Canada. So far that is experimental.
  • gem069gem069 Posts: 65
    You and I may be closer together than you think. First though I am not worried about oil being shut off from Iran. They have crap oil with real high sulfur that no one wants. That may cause them to use their big guns to take over other Middle East countries. That could be problematic. South American oil is much more stable. They talk a lot but love our money. They have horrible leaders, but not ones that have a religious fervor of hatred toward the USA.

    I saw on TV the other day the commie Pres of Venezuela, Chaevez talking at a OPEC meeting. Even through I really hate them commies, he did have many logical points regarding OPEC and fossil fuels.
    And as been his agenda of slamming the "Imperial Empire" (USA) and still trying to find a way to shut off all fossil fuels to the USA and bring the USA to it's knees. (As quoted by him) Luckily the rest of the OPEC is still greedy for the $, or surely the USA would be shut out.

    =======================================================
    It's only a matter of time till they will!
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I don't see how any country can prevent the US from accessing their oil unless they shut down their production completely. All oil makes its way into a global supply. Its like having a swimming pool and saying that you can only take water from the shallow end.

    Venezuala's President enjoys playing Robin Hood with a seized oil company's (Citgo) revenue. His leftist practices are a fairly transparent effort to buy influence and support. He wouldn't be able to do this without oil money. If it wasn't for the US's demand for oil the revenue generated would be a fraction of what it currently is. All these anti-American oil producers are like the crack whore who complains about who she has to lie down with. They have no options.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    You are right, all these oil producing countries are dependent on money from oil. None of them will turn off the tap decreasing the flow of money inward.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    All I am saying is that Ethanol and E85 are available NOW,

    While it is available now its not such a great option. Its more expensive to use and extremely land intensive to produce any great quantities of. Not to mention other issues with ethanol. Just don't put all your eggs in the E85 basket, its not as strong as it looks.

    South America, Venezuela and Bolivia, have openly espoused their hatred of the USA getting their oil

    Yeah but my money is on them loving those Yankee Greenbacks.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    Shell Oil announced today that they will be producing Ethanol from waste material within two years -- BLOOMBERG TV
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    I was interested to watch on TV the other night the installation of the large hydrogen tanks in autos. These hydrogen tanks took up all of the trunk space. The rear seats had to be temporarily removed and a mechanical arm and winch were used to stuff the trunk with the Hydrogen tank and associated hardware.

    All Hydrogen autos are on a short mileage tether just like the Electric cars. We are a tremendously long way from ever having Hydrogen as a viable fuel source just as Electric cars have been interesting but only in an confined urban setting.

    In the 60s we had propane powered taxicabs in San Fransisco -- and we know how far that technology took us.

    Hydrogen powered autos may be a technology of the future, but it is a long term solution that will take decades to implement and many billions of dollars for infrastructure even to support going outside of an urban area. Hydrogen researchers are now lookng at creating some sort of jell that would fill a storage tank in an auto to smother the explosive Hydrogen product or render it inert in case of an accident.

    Solutions will come. However, the point I am making is that we have viable solutions NOW with Ethanol and Biodiesel running in autos that currently come off the production line.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    What is the range of a flexible fuel ethanol vehicle?
    Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 100 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 5% to 15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on temperature and driving conditions. For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%.

    Research indicates Ford FFVs experience a 5% horsepower gain on E85.
    The range of any particular vehicle is dependent on the size of the fuel tank and driving habits.
    Current Ford Taurus FFVs have an 18-gallon fuel tank and will normally travel 350 miles between refuelings.
This discussion has been closed.