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Honda Accord Brake Questions

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  • 2008 2009 Accords and maybe 2010s are lemons.
    All models (LX EX V6) have defective brakes.
    I was in the dealership with three other people at the same time for the same problem. Changing rear pads at 15K !!!
    My pads were burned and each pad different width from 1/16 of an inch to 1/4 of an inch... uneven pressure or what. My front pads are at 70% according to dealer.

    Well we payed different prices that day as well. The people that did not complain gave $180. People that complaint 50% (Honda paid the rest). People that mentioned lemon law ...free. Later Honda called me to tell me that they are collecting incidences and are working for the problem ... NHTSA has 400-500 complaints for 08 and 09s, nobody has died yet so they have not recalled the lemon yet. Are they serious
  • billpaulbillpaul Posts: 103
    "Good for you - do you have anything of value to add to the discussion that doesn't represent your continued bias against the American Honda Motor Company?"

    Are complaints about brake problems - these problems are real - a bias against the manufacturer?

    Has Honda solved these problems in the 2010 model?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    This is a quote, from a Honda technician, on another forum.

    "Update: Just got a new revised set of '08+ Accord rear pads in yesterday (12/16/2009). The new part number for the rear pad set is 43022-TA0-A51, which replaces the original pad set 43022-TA0-A00. The revised pad set includes two wire springs that fit into holes drilled into the rear edges of the backing plates. These springs are intended to hold the pads away from the rotor while there is no brake pressure. Honda has already been using a similar wire spring setup for '02-06 CR-V and '03+ Element front pads.We'll see if they help to extend rear pad life for the Accords."

    Can't say if this will solve the problem or not (too early), but I would check with a dealership about it. Good luck :)
  • "Has Honda solved these problems in the 2010 model? "

    I asked the Honda service manager that question when they were replacing my back brakes on my 08 Accord and she told me that Honda is working on this problem and yes the 2010 back brakes are the same as the 08/09 back brakes. That was a month ago so I am not sure if they have figured it out yet.
  • My 1999 Accord still has the original rear shoes at 50,000 miles, and that's 95% city driving. I probably won't purchase another Accord, not because of the brakes, but due to the excessive road noise, which is again there in 2010 models, but not in a 2007 model I test drove a few years ago. Honda needs to tame the road noise like it has in the 2010 Acura TL.

    As for those of you with the pads going at 24,000 miles or less in normal driving, I'd be P.O'd too. Thankfully Edmunds is around to save the day giving us an outlet to hold discussions and to discuss ongoing issues, good or bad. Thank you Edmunds.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Here is Honda's attempt at the solution to the rear brakes.

    This is a quote, from a Honda technician, on another forum.

    "Update: Just got a new revised set of '08+ Accord rear pads in yesterday (12/16/2009). The new part number for the rear pad set is 43022-TA0-A51, which replaces the original pad set 43022-TA0-A00. The revised pad set includes two wire springs that fit into holes drilled into the rear edges of the backing plates. These springs are intended to hold the pads away from the rotor while there is no brake pressure. Honda has already been using a similar wire spring setup for '02-06 CR-V and '03+ Element front pads.We'll see if they help to extend rear pad life for the Accords."

    Can't say if this will solve the problem or not (too early), but I would check with a dealership about it. Good luck
  • billpaulbillpaul Posts: 103
    Thank you everyone for your comments.

    It is hard to understand why Honda is having problems with disc brakes, which are not exactly new technology. Has it really taken them 2 years to come up with a solution that is the same as in other Honda models? Also, I wonder what percentage of Accords are having this problem.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Disk brakes are not new, but EBD (electronic brake-force distribution) is. EBD uses much more rear braking, to reduce nose dive. My guess is, they will have to increase the size of the rear callipers and pads. While this sounds simple enough, they have to decide how much increase in size is needed, which will require some research and testing. Safety is a big concern, with any braking system change, so change will take time. I doubt the Accord will see a rear braking system change before the redesign in 2013. I'm sure Honda is hoping the rear pad revision will reduce the problem until then.
  • danesidanesi Posts: 11
    just got back from my 20000 mile service. Was told 2mm left on rear brake pads. Service technician said Honda was offering to install replacement pads, etc on rear for 50% of regular price. He related that Honda was quietly providing 100% replacement if mileage was under 12000, 50% between 12000 and 20000. No subsidy after 20001 miles. Cost to me approx $150. Figured it was worth it. If I find that Honda is making it a warranty item in the future I will make a claim.
  • schimischimi Posts: 2
    I have an almost brand new 2009 Accord EX-L 4cyl 190hp with only 4400km on.
    At the beginning brakes were smoking heavily. Honda service could find nothing. Smoking stopped but rear brakes smell burnt every second time I come home. Went to Honda again, but they told me if they check again and find nothing I have to pay for the labor. I think something stinks big time. I never had that problem with any car before. I am a very experienced driver and used to repair my car myself in my earlier days, but they treat me like a complete idiot at the service department.
    What shell I do about it? If something is wrong they will later say breaks are normal wear and tear and will make me pick up the bill.
  • Make a copy of the messages on these couple of pages that mentioned the silent and temporary solution and go back to your dealership and ask them to install the following part 43022-TA0-A51 with the wire springs as indicated by elroy5.

    Honda service mechanics and So California Rep mentioned the same thing that the rear pads did not disengage after releasing the pedal so the premature wear -- this is a caliber problem but they believe that the springs will prolong the life of the pads at that level that looks decent. A Honda mechanic mentioned that everything is under-engineered in 08 09 10 Accords that is why the cars have so many problems. She suggested to use always hand-brake and from time to time to back up the car for a couple of hundred yards to help with aligning the pads – not sure how this things works.

    I have found at least one person from www.carcomplaints.com that was able to get money back through arbitration (#602 post – Accords 2008s), and there is class action on the works in Los Angeles http://www.girardgibbs.com/hondabrakes.asp?_kk=honda%20accord%20brake%20problems- &_kt=72b8cce1-0fe8-4f4f-88b8-55662de96fbb&gclid=CPiPpoG2ip0CFUdM5QodLVRm2Q. :lemon:

    I am close to start BBB-Autoline arbitration I will post the dates if/when this happens as the Honda people do not care about their customer’s safety but for their bottom line only. It took a highway police officer to die for the NHTSA to recall the Toyotas because of the faulty cruise control … it will take years to act to the rip-off of the Honda customers. Edmunds do not post reviews that will deviate to much from the initial review because they will get the blame for their poor job rating and consumerreports.org will take a year to change their rating the way they calculate the statistics – they at least let all reviews visible. I suggest all of us to write to the State Attorneys and Congressmen of our areas for this rip-off. :mad:

    The dealership in Southern California installed the same part in my car, part 43022-TA0-A51 with the wire springs. However my rear brakes still smell burning even after a short ride so their solution is not the best— I have no clue about cars but I think it is more caliber & distribution problem. By the way my car smells more on cold days … :confuse:

    2010 Accords have the same design as 08 09 no brake improvements I do not know if Honda is installing the new pads though :surprise:

    I think with this information you will convince the dealership to change your pads to the new pads with the metal spring.

    By the way does anybody knows
    - if the metal brake sensor on the rear pads on 08 09 accords is in the inside or outside pad.
    - if it is common to have inner outer pads uneven significanlty (1/4 inch)
    - if it is common to have left-right parts uneven significanlty (more than 1/4 inch)
  • corkscrewcorkscrew Posts: 254
    If you have uneven pad wear (tapered) that is the result of improper, or no lube on the sliding pins. Damaged or improperly installed bushings or sleeves will cause uneven movement of the caliper causing tapered pad wear as well. Which wheel and which pad (inner or outer) has the most wear?
    Corkscew
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 13,585
    I have a 2005, and had to do the rear brakes at 40K.

    And it was uneven pad wear that caused the problem. The left side (both pads) was fine, and the outer RS was like new. The inner RS pad however was shot.

    particularly annoying since shortly before that, the dealer gave the rear brakes a green check for pad life left (pretty sure they just measured the outer pad since the wheels didn't come off during the oil change). Wasn't til I had a rotation done and the tire shop guy checked them all that I found the problem.

    The mechanic at the shop who did the job even knew before I brought it in which pad it was!

    He also said it was a caliper problem, related to the sliding pins (I am pretty sure) not releasing. He supposedly lubed the heck out of them. I should probably have them checked/lubed next time I get a rotation done.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Went to Honda again, but they told me if they check again and find nothing I have to pay for the labor.

    I'd simply go to a different dealership, assuming there is more than one relatively nearby.
  • corkscrewcorkscrew Posts: 254
    Here is an article about brakes: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-parts/brake-calipers.htm/p- rintable. Check the third paragraph under "brake caliper tool", very interesting to those of us with floating calipers.
    Corkscrew
  • My left (driver) inner pad was at .5 mm (1/50 inch) or less
    My right inner pad was at 2.5 mm ( - 1/8 inch)
    I could figure out from the metal clips that inner pads have which go to the bottom and the arc of the pads -- I think.

    I have no clue about the outer pads as there were not marked when I received them
    one has 3 mm (+ 1/8 inch) and the other 6 mm (1/4 inch).

    I do not know the original OEMS or new OEM replacements but they should be at or around 8.5 mm +/- the manufacturing tolerance I guess

    So something in the original Accord design makes the brakes stick and they do not release properly (according to Honda So Cal representative).

    I am not sure if the extra metal clip/spring will fix the brake problems. I doubt as they do not address the real problem but they try to do a temp-fix up so the clip could assist the release of the pads

    We will see on that as more people will receive tha replacement pads etc
  • Several points from a lifelong technician at Honda :

    okay first things first people, as an educated certified Honda technician with a lifetime in the automobile business. please stop throwing around the words "lemon law" if you are not fully aware of what they mean and substantiate. A "lemon" is a car which has had at least(depending on what state you are in) 3 attempts to repair the same item/complaint.

    Attempts to repair do not include visits where no problem can be duplicated, and no action was taken. Generally these attempts have to be within a period of time (not your warranty period), usually 30-90 days and/or must disable the vehicle at one time for a straight period of time, usually at least 14 business days. You do NOT have a lemon if your need rear brakes before your warranty expires, sorry. no attorney's general office is going to support you, and a BBB representative should shy away form such a case as well.

    Things you should know about repair attempts and those of us servicing your auto :

    there is NO CONSPIRACY to deny you anything, EVER! We want you to be happy, because we need your business. This extends from the technician servicing your car , through the low level management, District Service management, all the way to the Heads of Service/Parts. The service dept WANTS MORE THAN ANYTHING TO FIND A PROBLEM WE CAN FIX UNDER WARRANTY! If a technician analyzes a car for 20 mins only to come up with "normal operation and no problems noted", then he or she GETS PAID NOTHING and has wasted their time!

    Second, if a technician cannot find a problem with your car, he or she is not blowing you off. What consumers don't always realize, and shouldnt have to think about but should know is a reality, is that Technicians ARE NOT PAID IN DEALERSHIPS TO BE AT WORK!. Technicians are "flat rate",which essentially is a COMMISSION. If they cannot find a FAILED PART when a car is in warranty, THEY DO NOT GET PAID AT ALL TO DEAL WITH YOUR CAR! Technicians will NOT RECIEVE ANY PAY for driving your car or looking at it while under warranty unless they can find a definitive problem and return a failed part.

    Honda has a VERY ACTIVE Warranty Parts Inspection department. they retrieve and inspect failed parts that were taken out of vehcles. If they find a part returned to not fit the criteria of "failed" they can and will take the $ they paid a service dept back. Thus we have to be very careful to replace only what is truly broken, other wise everyone from the technician to the Service Writer to the manager will all lose the pay they got form servicing that component. This is called "backflagging", and it can be done even after employees were paid, it will be deducted form the next pay check they get.

    As far as the technician who marked one persons brakes green and the inner pad was worn out, please consider this : If your car was getting an oil and filter service, that technician gets paid .3 hours to perform that service. (thats 18 minutes of pay). Many dealers also cut the technicians rate of pay to 70-80% of their pay rate for performing oil changes as it is considered "entry level " work, and simple enough that anyone can perform the task, thus they refuse to pay a full wage (that is scary, but a point for another time). He IS NOT PAID TO INSPECT ALL OF THE THINGS ON THE SHEET YOU GOT! He is EXPECTED to do that as a courtesy and being thankful for a job. In order to fully view your brakes, he would need to remove all of your wheels. He is NOT BEING PAID TO DO SO! If you would like a full brake inspection, that usually take approximately 25-30 mins to do thoroughly with a sufficient road test included. The technician may receive .4-.5 hours of pay to do so, and you should request one and pay for it. That inspection if you want it, is not the responsibility of the manufacturer, nor is it the responsibility of the technician, to buy for you.

    Points regarding Technicians and Service Writers and YOUR CAR! :

    You would actually be well served when you go to a dealer for service, to specifically request a salaried Master technician to look at your car, in order to recieve the most thorough service possible for your vehicle. Some dealers keep one person so employed, called a Foreman, for the purposes of quality control, many do not.

    I would reccomend not SERVICING at any dealer that employs only FLAT RATE TECHNICIANS! I would reccomend all consumers ask the Service Writer handling their auto as soon as they are written up, what the method of pay is for the technician handling their car, and to please see his or her training credentials and or ASE certifications. You will VERY SURPRISED to find that there are VERY FEW CERTIFIED TECHNICIANS actually working in DEALERS. Most service departments are resting on the accomplishments and laurels of a 10-30% of their employees and hoping nobody ever asks to validate the credentials of the rest.

    Start asking and see what types of responses you get from your Service Writers/Managers. If you find that only a FLAT RATE technician is available to you, understand going into service that he or she has to work on as many cars as he or she possibly can in order to make a pay check to pay their daily bills. This is not a sob story, simply a fact that needs to be stated, so that consumers can better understand and interact with the people they are trusting to solve their problems.

    This thread seesm to be picking on an anomaly, the likes of which can be represented by at least one model from basically every manufacturer similarly. And by the way, I can find 08 09 10 Accords that are over 30 k that havent needed rear brakes yet, so in my professional opinion, I could not issue a blanket statement saying ALL Accords have this problem, and its still a brake related problem,which, like it or not, just like tires and windshield wipers, are always going to wear out. Most other companies would stand on a pulpit of "12 month 12000 miles" as the warranty, and that would be that.

    And lastly, you should know that when it comes to consumer care, Honda is probably the MOST gracious and concerned company in the industry. We sometimes jokingly refer to them a a Consumer Protection Group, because they will on a daily basis bend over backwards with Goodwill Claims assistance that we who have been in the business for years all know, few if any other Manufacturers would equal. From the perspective of this lifelong technician, in the current climate of econlmy and technology, there is no other company that as a whole provides a better product in terms of quality, reliability, value and usefulness. I myself and quite satisfied and proud to work for Honda in the capacity I do.
  • Nobody complaint for the mechanics. Honda Mechanics are great !!! That is why we servcie our cars in the dealership. It is not that we like the service manager (Whom I like by the way) but because of the confidence that the car will be fixed to specifications.

    Your notice about flat rates and rate you are getting paid should be redirected to Honda not its clients, which are us. Honda is making the big mistake to try to cover things instead of issuing a recall and replacing all Accord pads with the new pads with the clip.

    You see the rip-off here, instead of fixing the problem they charge a couple of times so far as nothing happened. I did not pay because I complaintm and I am a 10 year customer that I bought three cars from teh dealership (They try to chrage me $200 initially), the person in front me of me was charged $200 for the same car for the same problem (Do not ask Do not tell policy of Honda) ... you see the problem there.
    Honda is not acting responsible

    Many Accords have problems for both rear brakes and front brakes according to Southern California Mechanics and one of the Honda Southern California parts and service representative.

    We complain because many accords have brake problems which is a safety issue and mostly we complain on behalf of the Honda working people !!!!

    I and other people who complaint here has bought multiple Honda cars (Personally I have owned 5 Hondas the last 10 years - 3 at a time), but we will not buy another Honda car and our friends will not buy another car (recently my friend did NOT but an Odyssey because he heard about my brake problems and how honda treating it, and he purchased a toyota - He had an Odyssey before with only problem transmission problem at 110K). So if Honda will not get it repeated customers Honda will start loosing big, we will pay $800-1000 more for brake replacement but Honda will loose customers .

    There is a class action lawsuit going on in Los Angeles so if Honda looses that it would be double loss for all Honda hard working people loss of customers and money. If Honda cover the problem under legalities Honda will just loose the customers.

    My two cents

    By the way as certified mechanic why do not find out what is the problem for rear pads not releasing proper
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 13,585
    Frankly, I do not care (nor should I) how the technicians get paid. That is the dealers (and of course their) problem. Same goes with a saleman. Not my problem how the commisions work.

    As for the green check mark, the dealers heavily advertise their multi-point check up. They even give measurements (in addition to the green/yellow/read check boxes). I also pay for this as part of the service, so the tech darned well better actually be doing what they check off (especially with safety related items like brakes and tires, since this is the primary time they get inspected).

    if they don't want to (or can't be bothered) actually do the inspection, the dealer should stop flaunting it as part of their service.

    anyway, my real point was to note that the calipers are, if not defective, overly sensitive or poorly designed. No way an inner pad should be shot when an outer pad on the same wheel is barely worn.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 13,585
    do any other cars have rear brakes wear out so much sooner than fronts? About 10K after I had the rears done, they are already as low (or lower) than the fronts that are still original, and will probably go close to 100K before needing to be changed. Probably will be well into the 2nd set of rears by then!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

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