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Honda Accord Brake Questions

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Comments

  • Make a copy of the messages on these couple of pages that mentioned the silent and temporary solution and go back to your dealership and ask them to install the following part 43022-TA0-A51 with the wire springs as indicated by elroy5.

    Honda service mechanics and So California Rep mentioned the same thing that the rear pads did not disengage after releasing the pedal so the premature wear -- this is a caliber problem but they believe that the springs will prolong the life of the pads at that level that looks decent. A Honda mechanic mentioned that everything is under-engineered in 08 09 10 Accords that is why the cars have so many problems. She suggested to use always hand-brake and from time to time to back up the car for a couple of hundred yards to help with aligning the pads – not sure how this things works.

    I have found at least one person from www.carcomplaints.com that was able to get money back through arbitration (#602 post – Accords 2008s), and there is class action on the works in Los Angeles http://www.girardgibbs.com/hondabrakes.asp?_kk=honda%20accord%20brake%20problems- &_kt=72b8cce1-0fe8-4f4f-88b8-55662de96fbb&gclid=CPiPpoG2ip0CFUdM5QodLVRm2Q. :lemon:

    I am close to start BBB-Autoline arbitration I will post the dates if/when this happens as the Honda people do not care about their customer’s safety but for their bottom line only. It took a highway police officer to die for the NHTSA to recall the Toyotas because of the faulty cruise control … it will take years to act to the rip-off of the Honda customers. Edmunds do not post reviews that will deviate to much from the initial review because they will get the blame for their poor job rating and consumerreports.org will take a year to change their rating the way they calculate the statistics – they at least let all reviews visible. I suggest all of us to write to the State Attorneys and Congressmen of our areas for this rip-off. :mad:

    The dealership in Southern California installed the same part in my car, part 43022-TA0-A51 with the wire springs. However my rear brakes still smell burning even after a short ride so their solution is not the best— I have no clue about cars but I think it is more caliber & distribution problem. By the way my car smells more on cold days … :confuse:

    2010 Accords have the same design as 08 09 no brake improvements I do not know if Honda is installing the new pads though :surprise:

    I think with this information you will convince the dealership to change your pads to the new pads with the metal spring.

    By the way does anybody knows
    - if the metal brake sensor on the rear pads on 08 09 accords is in the inside or outside pad.
    - if it is common to have inner outer pads uneven significanlty (1/4 inch)
    - if it is common to have left-right parts uneven significanlty (more than 1/4 inch)
  • corkscrewcorkscrew Posts: 254
    If you have uneven pad wear (tapered) that is the result of improper, or no lube on the sliding pins. Damaged or improperly installed bushings or sleeves will cause uneven movement of the caliper causing tapered pad wear as well. Which wheel and which pad (inner or outer) has the most wear?
    Corkscew
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,705
    I have a 2005, and had to do the rear brakes at 40K.

    And it was uneven pad wear that caused the problem. The left side (both pads) was fine, and the outer RS was like new. The inner RS pad however was shot.

    particularly annoying since shortly before that, the dealer gave the rear brakes a green check for pad life left (pretty sure they just measured the outer pad since the wheels didn't come off during the oil change). Wasn't til I had a rotation done and the tire shop guy checked them all that I found the problem.

    The mechanic at the shop who did the job even knew before I brought it in which pad it was!

    He also said it was a caliper problem, related to the sliding pins (I am pretty sure) not releasing. He supposedly lubed the heck out of them. I should probably have them checked/lubed next time I get a rotation done.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Went to Honda again, but they told me if they check again and find nothing I have to pay for the labor.

    I'd simply go to a different dealership, assuming there is more than one relatively nearby.
  • corkscrewcorkscrew Posts: 254
    Here is an article about brakes: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-parts/brake-calipers.htm/p- rintable. Check the third paragraph under "brake caliper tool", very interesting to those of us with floating calipers.
    Corkscrew
  • My left (driver) inner pad was at .5 mm (1/50 inch) or less
    My right inner pad was at 2.5 mm ( - 1/8 inch)
    I could figure out from the metal clips that inner pads have which go to the bottom and the arc of the pads -- I think.

    I have no clue about the outer pads as there were not marked when I received them
    one has 3 mm (+ 1/8 inch) and the other 6 mm (1/4 inch).

    I do not know the original OEMS or new OEM replacements but they should be at or around 8.5 mm +/- the manufacturing tolerance I guess

    So something in the original Accord design makes the brakes stick and they do not release properly (according to Honda So Cal representative).

    I am not sure if the extra metal clip/spring will fix the brake problems. I doubt as they do not address the real problem but they try to do a temp-fix up so the clip could assist the release of the pads

    We will see on that as more people will receive tha replacement pads etc
  • Several points from a lifelong technician at Honda :

    okay first things first people, as an educated certified Honda technician with a lifetime in the automobile business. please stop throwing around the words "lemon law" if you are not fully aware of what they mean and substantiate. A "lemon" is a car which has had at least(depending on what state you are in) 3 attempts to repair the same item/complaint.

    Attempts to repair do not include visits where no problem can be duplicated, and no action was taken. Generally these attempts have to be within a period of time (not your warranty period), usually 30-90 days and/or must disable the vehicle at one time for a straight period of time, usually at least 14 business days. You do NOT have a lemon if your need rear brakes before your warranty expires, sorry. no attorney's general office is going to support you, and a BBB representative should shy away form such a case as well.

    Things you should know about repair attempts and those of us servicing your auto :

    there is NO CONSPIRACY to deny you anything, EVER! We want you to be happy, because we need your business. This extends from the technician servicing your car , through the low level management, District Service management, all the way to the Heads of Service/Parts. The service dept WANTS MORE THAN ANYTHING TO FIND A PROBLEM WE CAN FIX UNDER WARRANTY! If a technician analyzes a car for 20 mins only to come up with "normal operation and no problems noted", then he or she GETS PAID NOTHING and has wasted their time!

    Second, if a technician cannot find a problem with your car, he or she is not blowing you off. What consumers don't always realize, and shouldnt have to think about but should know is a reality, is that Technicians ARE NOT PAID IN DEALERSHIPS TO BE AT WORK!. Technicians are "flat rate",which essentially is a COMMISSION. If they cannot find a FAILED PART when a car is in warranty, THEY DO NOT GET PAID AT ALL TO DEAL WITH YOUR CAR! Technicians will NOT RECIEVE ANY PAY for driving your car or looking at it while under warranty unless they can find a definitive problem and return a failed part.

    Honda has a VERY ACTIVE Warranty Parts Inspection department. they retrieve and inspect failed parts that were taken out of vehcles. If they find a part returned to not fit the criteria of "failed" they can and will take the $ they paid a service dept back. Thus we have to be very careful to replace only what is truly broken, other wise everyone from the technician to the Service Writer to the manager will all lose the pay they got form servicing that component. This is called "backflagging", and it can be done even after employees were paid, it will be deducted form the next pay check they get.

    As far as the technician who marked one persons brakes green and the inner pad was worn out, please consider this : If your car was getting an oil and filter service, that technician gets paid .3 hours to perform that service. (thats 18 minutes of pay). Many dealers also cut the technicians rate of pay to 70-80% of their pay rate for performing oil changes as it is considered "entry level " work, and simple enough that anyone can perform the task, thus they refuse to pay a full wage (that is scary, but a point for another time). He IS NOT PAID TO INSPECT ALL OF THE THINGS ON THE SHEET YOU GOT! He is EXPECTED to do that as a courtesy and being thankful for a job. In order to fully view your brakes, he would need to remove all of your wheels. He is NOT BEING PAID TO DO SO! If you would like a full brake inspection, that usually take approximately 25-30 mins to do thoroughly with a sufficient road test included. The technician may receive .4-.5 hours of pay to do so, and you should request one and pay for it. That inspection if you want it, is not the responsibility of the manufacturer, nor is it the responsibility of the technician, to buy for you.

    Points regarding Technicians and Service Writers and YOUR CAR! :

    You would actually be well served when you go to a dealer for service, to specifically request a salaried Master technician to look at your car, in order to recieve the most thorough service possible for your vehicle. Some dealers keep one person so employed, called a Foreman, for the purposes of quality control, many do not.

    I would reccomend not SERVICING at any dealer that employs only FLAT RATE TECHNICIANS! I would reccomend all consumers ask the Service Writer handling their auto as soon as they are written up, what the method of pay is for the technician handling their car, and to please see his or her training credentials and or ASE certifications. You will VERY SURPRISED to find that there are VERY FEW CERTIFIED TECHNICIANS actually working in DEALERS. Most service departments are resting on the accomplishments and laurels of a 10-30% of their employees and hoping nobody ever asks to validate the credentials of the rest.

    Start asking and see what types of responses you get from your Service Writers/Managers. If you find that only a FLAT RATE technician is available to you, understand going into service that he or she has to work on as many cars as he or she possibly can in order to make a pay check to pay their daily bills. This is not a sob story, simply a fact that needs to be stated, so that consumers can better understand and interact with the people they are trusting to solve their problems.

    This thread seesm to be picking on an anomaly, the likes of which can be represented by at least one model from basically every manufacturer similarly. And by the way, I can find 08 09 10 Accords that are over 30 k that havent needed rear brakes yet, so in my professional opinion, I could not issue a blanket statement saying ALL Accords have this problem, and its still a brake related problem,which, like it or not, just like tires and windshield wipers, are always going to wear out. Most other companies would stand on a pulpit of "12 month 12000 miles" as the warranty, and that would be that.

    And lastly, you should know that when it comes to consumer care, Honda is probably the MOST gracious and concerned company in the industry. We sometimes jokingly refer to them a a Consumer Protection Group, because they will on a daily basis bend over backwards with Goodwill Claims assistance that we who have been in the business for years all know, few if any other Manufacturers would equal. From the perspective of this lifelong technician, in the current climate of econlmy and technology, there is no other company that as a whole provides a better product in terms of quality, reliability, value and usefulness. I myself and quite satisfied and proud to work for Honda in the capacity I do.
  • Nobody complaint for the mechanics. Honda Mechanics are great !!! That is why we servcie our cars in the dealership. It is not that we like the service manager (Whom I like by the way) but because of the confidence that the car will be fixed to specifications.

    Your notice about flat rates and rate you are getting paid should be redirected to Honda not its clients, which are us. Honda is making the big mistake to try to cover things instead of issuing a recall and replacing all Accord pads with the new pads with the clip.

    You see the rip-off here, instead of fixing the problem they charge a couple of times so far as nothing happened. I did not pay because I complaintm and I am a 10 year customer that I bought three cars from teh dealership (They try to chrage me $200 initially), the person in front me of me was charged $200 for the same car for the same problem (Do not ask Do not tell policy of Honda) ... you see the problem there.
    Honda is not acting responsible

    Many Accords have problems for both rear brakes and front brakes according to Southern California Mechanics and one of the Honda Southern California parts and service representative.

    We complain because many accords have brake problems which is a safety issue and mostly we complain on behalf of the Honda working people !!!!

    I and other people who complaint here has bought multiple Honda cars (Personally I have owned 5 Hondas the last 10 years - 3 at a time), but we will not buy another Honda car and our friends will not buy another car (recently my friend did NOT but an Odyssey because he heard about my brake problems and how honda treating it, and he purchased a toyota - He had an Odyssey before with only problem transmission problem at 110K). So if Honda will not get it repeated customers Honda will start loosing big, we will pay $800-1000 more for brake replacement but Honda will loose customers .

    There is a class action lawsuit going on in Los Angeles so if Honda looses that it would be double loss for all Honda hard working people loss of customers and money. If Honda cover the problem under legalities Honda will just loose the customers.

    My two cents

    By the way as certified mechanic why do not find out what is the problem for rear pads not releasing proper
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,705
    Frankly, I do not care (nor should I) how the technicians get paid. That is the dealers (and of course their) problem. Same goes with a saleman. Not my problem how the commisions work.

    As for the green check mark, the dealers heavily advertise their multi-point check up. They even give measurements (in addition to the green/yellow/read check boxes). I also pay for this as part of the service, so the tech darned well better actually be doing what they check off (especially with safety related items like brakes and tires, since this is the primary time they get inspected).

    if they don't want to (or can't be bothered) actually do the inspection, the dealer should stop flaunting it as part of their service.

    anyway, my real point was to note that the calipers are, if not defective, overly sensitive or poorly designed. No way an inner pad should be shot when an outer pad on the same wheel is barely worn.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,705
    do any other cars have rear brakes wear out so much sooner than fronts? About 10K after I had the rears done, they are already as low (or lower) than the fronts that are still original, and will probably go close to 100K before needing to be changed. Probably will be well into the 2nd set of rears by then!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    We complain because many accords have brake problems which is a safety issue and mostly we complain on behalf of the Honda working people !!!!

    This is NOT a safety issue. It IS a wear issue only. Not something there would be a recall on. Honda will likely do many good-will or discounted pad replacements, for early wear. People have been complaining of early wear, on rear brake pads ever since the Accord was equipped with EBD (electronic brakeforce distribution). My rear pads (03 V6 Sedan) were worn well before the front pads, but since the brakes work well, and don't have any other problems, I'm ok with that.
  • I agree is mostly wear issue because there are front brakes as well, but it is a rip-off as most people buy Accords to the relative lower cost to keep up relative to similar cars, but in So California people need a one-two set a rear brake pad a year (as the average use is 20-25K) where before we needed rear pads once every three year. So comparing $200 versus $800-1200 is a big issue. The rip-off is bigger because Honda knows the problem and "good-will" discounts only to people that complain

    EBD is not a major issue in other cars (e.g. Osyssey) so it is a faulty design in a specific model (Accord)

    It is safety issue as well as the brake pads are touching the rotors when they suppose not (This is from the mouth of Southern Honda regional Cal Service Manager).

    If the brake pads and rotors touch then they will have higher temperature and they could not convert as eficiently the kinetic energy to thermal energy in a brake attempt so it increases the expected driving distances which is a safety issue. Even 3-6 feet distance would make a word of diference in an accident.

    My two cents
  • "The rip-off is bigger because Honda knows the problem and "good-will" discounts only to people that complain"

    I complained and it did not do me any good. I told the Honda dealer that I had spent $75,000 since 2005 at his dealership and they still did not pay 1 penny toward my brake issue. I told them that I was trading the Accord and would never buy another Honda again and they still did nothing :mad:
  • For 08 09 10 Accords mentioned that Honda has new pads (43022-TA0-A51) with a metal clip because there is problem and ask the dealer's explanation

    If your dealer did not give you the 50% discount that Honda gave so far to several people and this was your first rear brake pads it just show that the dealers are milking the cow, but they will pay it in big $$$$ in the future. As you, I and others will not buy a Honda again, companies get in trouble one customer at a time. :sick:
  • Because the front brakes have problem as well fro the Accords 08 09 10
    Honda has the following

    http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2696671

    From another forum the following exchange
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Accord Sedan
    45022-TA0-A60 - Front Pads
    43022-TA0-A60 - Rear Pads

    Accord Coupe
    45022-TE0-A60 - Front Pads
    43022-TE0-A60 - Rear Pads
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think the new rear pad # are 43022-TA0-A51 , no ?
    The orginal # on rear were 43022-TA0-A00


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No. 43022-TA0-A51 is the supersession from the A00 part number

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So I guess you can ask the

    Accord Sedan
    45022-TA0-A60 - Front Pads
    43022-TA0-A60 - Rear Pads

    or

    Accord Coupe
    45022-TE0-A60 - Front Pads
    43022-TE0-A60 - Rear Pads
  • schimischimi Posts: 2
    Thank you so much Rearpad for your great help and info. So from what I read here and the comments before and after I do understand that the breaks in the 09 & 10 model is similar to the 08 and the same spring loaded brake pad will work fine (or not so well since your breaks still do smell). I also do agree the smell is worse on cold days and more so when I had 3-4 passengers on board. What freaks me is exactly what one of the later comments says, namely that the disks are heating up and therefore may be compromised. Also to have the breaks constantly hot to smelling point must heat up the ball bearings of the whole wheel and maybe will cause grease to start dripping out? It could cause pre-mature wear and tear and therefore alone could be a safety issue.
    I had other cars where the breaks did get hot, then the disks would start ticking during cooling, but they never smelled. I do understand that this new computerized break system may lead to shorter lifetime on the rear pads but smelling and smoking breaks is a very clear indication that the rear brakes are not disengaging on the Accord. This is a nice and clear construction failure and Honda should fix the problem and do a re-call.
    What ticks me off most is the extra fuel consumption, which this problem probably does cause. I am surprised nobody of you mentioned that fact? I deliberately ordered the car with the smaller engine since I do mainly do city driving and i promised my kids I would buy a car with low fuel consumption. But the fuel consumption in the city is way higher than what I would have expected and I do blame part of it on that break problem. This could get really expensive if customers what the money for that extra fuel back from Honda...
    Anyway I had promised my children cross my heart that this Accord is relatively low in carb emissions and now I feel so betrayed. What a madness to bring a car onto the marked in these times were you constantly drive around with the brakes slightly engaged???? :mad:
  • newf4newf4 Posts: 1
    Perhaps when things do go wrong with a honda product we will overreact mainly because of our high expectations, but I agree with most everything that has been written on this recent brake problem. I own a number of honda products and have very little bad to say about any of them, and I do expect the very best of each because we initially paid extra for their anticipated excellence. However they are man-made and engineered, therefore i should expect something to go wrong on occassion. BUT this problem ,that continues to go unabated, tells me(and others) that honda is not working towards a consumer driven solution. Rest asured, they will soon be losing much of their loyal fan base because of their indifference and complacency We were in the market for a new family sedan for the upcoming spring, but we will now have to rethink the Accord as our first choice. Thanks for the information---it has been noted and acted upon!
  • From another forum
    ---------------------------------------

    HONDA CANADA released letter, they sell the same accords as HONDA USA
    HONDA Europe sells the Accura TSX as Accord

    http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?p=588342

    Honda Canada issued a letter that they will fix brakes but they do not call it a recall otherwise HONDA USA has to do the same, and also they will need to stop selling cars till they fix the problem. Then they will have to holt as toyota did check also the following.

    Notice the issue of the Calibers that causes uneven wear of rear pads there.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------

    573.11 Prohibition on sale or lease of new defective and noncompliant motor vehicles and items of replacement equipment.

    (a) If notification is required by an order under 49 U.S.C. 30118(b) or is required under 49 U.S.C. 30118(c) and the manufacturer has provided to a dealer (including retailers of motor vehicle equipment) notification about a new motor vehicle or new item of replacement equipment in the dealer’s possession, including actual and constructive possession, at the time of notification that contains a defect related to motor vehicle safety or does not comply with an applicable motor vehicle safety standard issued under 49 CFR part 571, the dealer may sell or lease the motor vehicle or item of replacement equipment only if:

    (1) The defect or noncompliance is remedied as required by 49 U.S.C. 30120 before delivery under the sale or lease; or

    (2) When the notification is required by an order under 49 U.S.C. 30118(b), enforcement of the order is restrained or the order is set aside in a civil action to which 49 U.S.C. 30121(d) applies.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Recalls are for "Safety" related issues only. This is not a "Safety" issue. Even if the pads were worn out at 5,000 miles, it would still not a safety issue. I'm sure Honda has, and will be performing a lot of good-will brake jobs over this issue, but there will not be any recall, IMO.
  • I am talking for Accords 80 09 10 not other years.
    Notice tha Honda Canada is replacing for free calibers. :surprise:

    This is not a problem of soft pads as the previous Accords 03-07.
    It is a design problem on 08 09 10.

    The premature wear is the end effect.
    The caliber and pressure is the problem.
    So it is safety issue.
    Aftermarket pads will prolong the life but not solve the problem.

    Continued temperature increase on the rotors create diminished braking distance and increased chance for accidents.

    Continued rubbing of the pads on the rotors will make the brake not to work on the first force pressure.

    Just try and drive an Accord 08 and brake lightly while you are pressing the accelerator. After 50 feet you loose all braking power in the first braking attempt, the second attempt you will be OK. Within a half a second you travel a long distance even with only 60 mph. This does not happen to any other Honda model.

    My two cents, but soon Honda USA will have to do something officially about this and then all the people that were ripped-off will be very very angry. Personally I paid $0 for my pad replacement the same day Honda stole $$$ from two people in front of me.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Just try and drive an Accord 08 and brake lightly while you are pressing the accelerator.

    Why would someone do this, unless they were trying to create a problem?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Just try and drive an Accord 08 and brake lightly while you are pressing the accelerator.

    Maybe people are doing this, wearing out their brakes? I understand your point about brake fade (reduced ability to stop when brakes are hot), but the left foot braking this is just idiotic to me. That'd be abuse, and cause for any dealer to NOT want to do any goodwill.
  • Of course nobody will/should drive like that

    This is an example of what is partially happening while the calibers or pressure are not releasing the rear pads, the touching of the pads is compromising the brake system's ability to stop the car. It is "like" driving with the left foot on the brake
    That is why 08 09 10 Accords have premature wear it is not the softness of the pads

    My point is that "is not just the pads" (which is a wearable item) and Honda can claim this is not a recall but "customer satisfaction" item.

    It is also the braking systems which need replacement,
    and by indirect admidance of Honda Canada the Calibers are pretty much involved and are included in the free replacement.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Of course nobody will/should drive like that

    Oh, but they do, and will drive like that. I see cars on the road all the time, accelerating, with brake lights on. Not hard to figure out what's going on there, and it makes me wonder if this person is one of the people complaining about his/her car's brakes, on some forum.
  • " I see cars on the road all the time, accelerating, with brake lights on"

    Are we saying that Honda does not have a design problem with the rear brakes on 2008 and up Accords? I guess all of us stupid people also got together and bought 08 Accords because if you go to any website that tracks complaints like carcomplaints.com the 2008 Accord has 40 times yes I said 40 times the complaints about rear brakes than any other year for the Accord. for those of you that try to blame everything and everybody except Honda for this problem I just hope you own a 2008 or 2009 Accord. :lemon:
  • Sticking accelerator?

    Sticking brakes?

    I think I prefer sticking brakes. But hey, that's just me.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'll just take a Fusion.

    ;)
  • What's a Fusion? :confuse:
  • "What's a Fusion?"

    Its the car that does not have sticky brakes or a sticky gas pedal :D But I would also take either one of the Graduates Accords (96 and 06) I think. Those were well built cars and he take really good care of them.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    That's absolutely right, on all accounts. :)

    Both are paid-for, and neither are going anywhere for awhile.
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