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Hyundai Santa Fe vs Toyota RAV4 vs Mazda CX-7 vs Ford Edge

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Comments

  • vbbuiltvbbuilt Posts: 498
    Oh boy, you're gonna get some arguments on that comment! :P

    Yes, it's not 1985 anymore, but american car makers still haven't figured out how to make good cars. Yes, the fusion is doing well, but that's just a lonely, isolated example. The american buyer, by and large, has figured out that Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Mazda/Hyundai, as a group, far outstrip the American Big 3, in terms of reliability and quality. The numbers speak for themselves. Why do you think the American Big 3 are loosing their shirts in the market place? Hmmmm? It's because Toyota, who for the first time, dominates. It's quality and reliability. Period. And as for the Edge, look at the early figures...It's not doing so well.

    I rest my case.

    Vince. :shades:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    The latest JD power 3 or 5 yr reliability survey will prove you wrong. I'll see if I can find it.

    The fusion is not a lonely, isolated case. All of the new Ford products introduced in the last 3 years have proven very reliable (Mustang, F150, Fusion, 500/Taurus). Same with GM. Not sure about Chrysler.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    Here is the 2006 reliability rankings of 2003 models. Note that Nissan, Mazda and Hyundai rank far below Ford and Chevy and Mercury, Buick and Cadillac are beaten only by Lexus and are ahead of Toyota, Honda and Acura. And this is not initial quality or first year reliability - these are 3 year old cars. Add in the Fusion and 500 and remove the Taurus and Ford should be even higher on the 2009 survey.

    Welcome to 2007.

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/MostDependableCar.- aspx
  • vbbuiltvbbuilt Posts: 498
    Now contrast that with Consumer Reports. MSN is heavily subsidized by advertising dollars and therefore, subject to those influences. CR, on the other hand, is not. I place full faith and credence in an independent testing organization that has decades of experience behind it. Take your pick.

    Vince.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    Apparently you didn't read the article. That report came from JD Power, not MSN. Surely you don't think JD Power is biased, do you?
  • d_hyperd_hyper Posts: 130
    What a great piece of statistics that is: "The study gives all problems equal weight; the most common ones reported were wind noise and loud brakes.". :shades:
  • davesuvdavesuv Posts: 149
    I have no doubt that the domestic automakers are trying hard to increase their product reliability. The Japanese and Korean companies are likewise trying to further increase their statistics (look how rapidly Hyundai is rising). At this point in time, I don't think it's all that helpful for a consumer to lump all a manufacturers vehicles together and say, for example, that Toyota is better than GM. Each manufacturer has a range of vehicles, each with different strengths and weaknesses.

    Once I've decided on a particular class of car that I'm interested in (size, style, price, etc.), then I can research to see how the various models in this class compare in reliability. I have to take into account that vehicles are constantly being refined and may have a different reliability than a model 2 or 3 years ago. Of course, whatever the statistics say, it's difficult to ignore what my past experiences have been with various brands as well as those of friends and family. Sometimes it's impossible to stay objective.

    Finally, the reliability is just one factor in selecting a vehicle. I have to balance reliability with feature sets, looks, mileage/performance, safety, comfort, and pricing before I can arrive at my final decision (not necessarily weighted in that order). The car company that can give me the best complete "package" is the one that gets my business. While I grew up in a "Ford family" with my father working at Ford and us always having purchased Ford brands, the winning packages for me over the past 15 years have been supplied by non-domestic brands.

    The real winner is the consumer. Competition has caused cars today to be significantly better than those of just 10 years ago, regardless of brand.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    Just because you don't like the results doesn't mean the survey is invalid.

    If they used weights then someone would just argue that the weights are wrong.

    The point here isn't that one brand is better than the other - only that the statement that domestic brands are much worse than the Japanese brands is absolutely not true anymore.
  • d_hyperd_hyper Posts: 130
    I thought I made it clear I don't like the criteria. Wind noise or 'loud brakes' has nothing to do with reliability. These things are usually there by design. Yes, people may like them or not, but it's like complaining about 'not enough power', or not meeting EPA numbers. This is not mechanical or electronics failure and shouldn't be counted at all. A better survey would count visits to the dealership to fix something. This one is superstitious at best. Although, I admit, Lexus must have a better sound deadening. ;)
  • chuck68516chuck68516 Posts: 195
    Americans are not buying Japanese/Korean cars because they are superior to American cars. They are buying them because they think they are getting a better price than they can get on the American counterpart. Having once owned a Honda, I would never buy another foreign vehicle. But if I were an average, dumb American buyer who sees that the Ford Edge is $33,0000 sticker priced and I see a Honda CR-V similarly equipped with a sticker price of $27,000, I would buy the Honda. Of course I am not an average, dumb American. I realize that Ford hasn't sold vehicles for MSRP for 15 plus years and I buy that better made higher quality Ford Edge for $26,700. I could list example after example of why MOST Americans think the foreign vehicles are "cheaper" priced. Add that to the fact that the foreign car companies can use inferior steel/aluminum/plastics to make the price even lower than what the Big 3 can/will do.

    Someone replied earlier that the reason they wouldn't buy a Ford Edge was that it was 500lbs heavier than a similar [non-permissible content removed] vehicle. To me, heavier equals sturdier, stronger materials, longer lasting. Basically the opposite of every [non-permissible content removed] vehicle I have ever sat in. What would you rather be driving when you get t-boned on the highway? My choice is always going to be the heavier vehicle.

    I have owned a Honda, 2 Pontiacs, 4 Fords, a Chevy and a Hummer H3. Which one do you think had the most problems? The HONDA!!!!! The frame by the drivers side rear wheel somehow decided to crack completely in half for no reason, the radio stopped working which required the whole dash to be pulled out to replace a $10 part resulting in $390 in labor, the power seat quit working TWICE, and my favorite, the horn decided to start honking on its own whenever it felt like it. My Pontiac Grand Prix rear window motor burned out, no biggie $50. No problems with the Chevy or Hummer. No problems on any of the Fords (Edge, F-150, Explorer, except Ranger (center cap of rear wheel fell off, Ford gave me a new one). Have any of you foreign vehicle enthusiasts ever even owned an American vehicle? You guys probably all own Mac's too.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    I understand your argument but that $33K Edge can't be purchased for less than $31K right now. No incentives.
  • carlitos92carlitos92 Posts: 458
    Do you really know people paying MSRP for Hondas? Maybe I should start up a car dealership! :P I mean, the $34K Acura RDX was selling for near invoice before it was even out for 6 months... same for the CX-7.

    "Add that to the fact that the foreign car companies can use inferior steel/aluminum/plastics to make the price even lower than what the Big 3 can/will do."

    :confuse: You got some kind of, you know, factual stuff to back that up, Sparky?

    FWIW, of all the cars I've owned, my '93 Civic was by FAR the best in terms of reliability, even in the face of heavy abuse: A real A+. I give my '76 Buick a C+, my '97 F-150 a B+, my '00 Jetta a D, and my '07 Mazda an A- so far... The '85 Cavalier that lived me for a while 15 years ago gets a triple F and middle finger. :P

    As far as weight, everybody has their own beliefs, but the way I look at it, savvy chassis engineering is JUST AS PROTECTIVE as sheer mass. I say Ford took the low road. ...If you've got a nut to crack, you could either use a chisel or a sledgehammer. One of those is easier to carry around, though.
  • chuck68516chuck68516 Posts: 195
    Do you want me to post a copy of my sales slip? MSRP 2007 Ford Edge FWD SEL Plus reverse sensing, 6 disc MP3, vista roof, Sirius, MSRP $32,690, price paid $267something. It CAN be done, I did it. The Honda dealer where I looked at CR-V's said "There is too much demand on the CR-V's, you would have to pay sticker." The CR-V I was looking at was #28,900 and didn't have reverse sensing system, memory seats, satellite radio, 6 disc MP3 etc, etc, etc.
  • chuck68516chuck68516 Posts: 195
    Do you really know people paying MSRP for Hondas? Maybe I should start up a car dealership! I mean, the $34K Acura RDX was selling for near invoice before it was even out for 6 months... same for the CX-7.

    Mazda makes the CX-7, FORD OWNS MAZDA.
  • chuck68516chuck68516 Posts: 195
    As far as weight, everybody has their own beliefs, but the way I look at it, savvy chassis engineering is JUST AS PROTECTIVE as sheer mass. I say Ford took the low road. ...If you've got a nut to crack, you could either use a chisel or a sledgehammer. One of those is easier to carry around, though.

    If you were the nut, would you rather be hit by the chisel or the sledgehammer? Do you think the sledgehammer even feels anything when he hits the nut?
  • vbbuiltvbbuilt Posts: 498
    Mr. Kirby, see what you and I started? A shootin' match! :P

    Well, I'm gonna say for the record that you're right * I misread the article. You did well in figurin' out that the Big 3 have finally achieved parity and in some cases, surpassed America's competitors in terms of quality and reliability. Bravo!

    Vince.
  • vbbuiltvbbuilt Posts: 498
    * Did y'all think I was going to bow out so gracefully?

    Now, let's see, where's that bridge I was meaning to sell. Someone in Brooklyn just left me a voice mail....
  • chuck68516chuck68516 Posts: 195
    I test drove the Honda CR-V, Rav4, Santa Fe, Edge. The only one I liked was the Edge. The [non-permissible content removed] crap was all too expensive, too small, cheap looking. I am not from Osaka for Pete's sake, I am a corn-fed American (6'4" 210lbs).

    If people knew that the Ford really isn't $33,000 they would pick it over the [non-permissible content removed] crap. Our society is so engrained with the belief that foreign = good. We will all be speaking Chinese/Japanese/ within 20 years. Japan West here we come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • d_hyperd_hyper Posts: 130
    Just so you know, you are riding a corn-fed Mazda 6 wagon.
    Knowledge is power.

    Also, nothing is more patriotic than buying the best product out there, so the local brand makes improvements to survive in the global marketplace.
  • carlitos92carlitos92 Posts: 458
    "Mazda makes the CX-7, FORD OWNS MAZDA."

    So what? That's why I also mentioned another brand. Face it: Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, and a host of other import brands AREN't owned by Yanks - and you can buy them for less than MSRP.

    BTW... when Ford owned Aston Martin, do you think you could've gotten a DB9 with a wicked 'Merican discount? :P
  • carlitos92carlitos92 Posts: 458
    C'mon now, Chucky. Posting a dissenting opinion is hardly "My Dad could beat up your Dad." If you look at it that way, then you kindof started it by saying "My Dad is the best, and all of your Dads are inferior and people are ignorant for liking them."

    And everyone who's disagreed with you had posted in this forum prior to you, so that hardly makes them trolls. But good luck making a point. Keep trying, and you'll get there eventually.

    And now I have that stupid song from the Edge commercials stuck in my head. Thanks fer nuthin'! ;)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    MSRP $32,690, price paid $26,7 something. It CAN be done, I did it.

    Only with a $4000 trade-in. That's below dealer COST, much less dealer invoice. Dealers don't give vehicles away - especially the ones that are selling well.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I test drove the Honda CR-V, Rav4, Santa Fe, Edge. The only one I liked was the Edge. The [non-permissible content removed] crap was all too expensive, too small, cheap looking.

    The Santa Fe isn't Japanese. It does look a bit bloated to me. The CRV looks the best. The Edge is right there tho. Too bad Ford can't get over the hump with their interiors.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Add in the Fusion and 500 and remove the Taurus and Ford should be even higher on the 2009 survey.

    So does that mean Hyundai will finish as one of the lead automakers in 2009 (since it finished 3rd place behind Porsche and Lexus in 06 IQS)?

    Just for the record, I believe both the Fusion/500 and overall Hyundai brand will likely perform well in the upcoming years but right now it's all speculation about the 2009 survey.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I test drove the Honda CR-V, Rav4, Santa Fe, Edge. The only one I liked was the Edge. The [non-permissible content removed] crap was all too expensive, too small, cheap looking. I am not from Osaka for Pete's sake, I am a corn-fed American (6'4" 210lbs).

    If CR-V, RAV4, and Santa Fe are expensive, then so does the Edge. It's a great vehicle and all, but it does have the highest starting MSRP (comparable equipped, I believe Edge still has the highest MSRP).

    I have spent an extensive time in all four of these (and more). I would say the Santa Fe is the all around winner, between features, safety, warranty, look, styling, power, comfort, price and other combinations give the SF the lead in the group. My understanding the Santa Fe has been well-received and doing fantastic for Hyundai.

    By the way, these vehicles are not small as you stated. I had no problem sitting in the third row of the Santa Fe and RAV4, for example, (unfortunately Edge doesn't have one). Regardless, this is not a forum about country, race, etc but rather about vehicles vehicles, their attributes, features, comparisons, etc.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The CRV looks the best.

    The outgoing model looked pretty good. I am just not sure about the front of the new model. A little better in real-life but by far no looker.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    The 2009 survey will be based on the 2006 models and we're halfway through the 3 yr reliability period. Given that the 06 Fusion and 500 have both been above average in reliability so far (with the Fusion way above average) I think it's a reasonable prediction.
  • d_hyperd_hyper Posts: 130
    Please, stop referring to it "reliability survey". It is a "wind-noise" survey.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    It is a survey of reported "problems" which includes wind-noise. But it also includes mechanical failures and problems and driveability issues. It's an industry standard report. If you don't like it, call J.D. Power.
  • davesuvdavesuv Posts: 149
    This report would be more valuable to me if they provided more details, like what were the detailed findings for each category for each model. Is that detailed information available somewhere? I could not find it on the JD Power website. Is there even a listing of what categories the survey was divided up into or a copy of the actual survey they used?

    Also, rankings mean little if the results are so close together as to be statistically insignificant. What I'd really like to see from JD Powers is the numerical value for each car together with it's standard deviation.
This discussion has been closed.