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2007 Hyundai Accent v 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift

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Comments

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Saying the Yaris engine is so much better, that is just preposterous - I am not trying to catch anyone, simply something I refute from your statement.

    I do have a job, a very good one, thank you very much :) Heard any news about Lehman Brothers lately? My wallet just got fatter ;)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    RE: Hyundai's resale values

    I can't help you if you don't want to acknowledge Hyundai improvement in resale values :)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Why stop there? Why not just buy a bicycle and take the money you saved, put it in a 401K, and when you turn 65 you can take it out and put it in a coffee can and bury it in your backyard for some kid to find and blow on a new car.

    Why stop there? Because the scenario you provided is not realistic. My point being, everyone's situation and buying decisions are different, while resale values are important to some people, a good case can also be made about it being over-rated.

    By the way, 401K doesn't work like that... :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    I know all about how dealerships "work my trade". Which is why in over 30 years of car buying, I've traded in only two cars to a dealership (one was a trade on a used car). I've found that the resale values quoted in sources like Edmunds.com, kbb.com, and nada.com are pretty close to what I can get in the real world. Edmunds.com's have probably been the closest to real-world values. I found this to be the case when I put two cars up for sale this year, one a Hyundai, one a Mazda.

    I was just pointing out that a resale value of $4200 for a 2002 Sonata is exceptionally low, and not representative in general of Hyundai resale values. I sold my 2001 Elantra GLS 5-speed, only option cruise control, this year for $5900 (within $100 of the Edmunds.com private-party TMV at the time, and 50% of its original purchase price after 5-1/2 years of ownership). A 2002 Sonata, assuming it isn't run into the ground, is worth a lot more than that.
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    Brettes23, you need to cold down. CVVT is a generic name for continuous variable valve timing in auto engine technology. Toyota gives CVVT a name of VVT-i, Honda calls it VTEC, BMW names it double VANOS, while GM, Hyundai, MB, and Volvo like to say CVVT. Like or not, the Yaris engine is at the same level as the Accent engine. The best Toyota mass-production engine is several generations behind BMW I6 that does not even have a throttle body because it has CVVL (continuous variable valve lifting).
  • I dinstinctly remember Backy that you "sold" your Elantra. Had you traded it in to a dealership, especially a non-Hyundai one, you would have gotten a fraction of that number. According to Edmunds (far more realistic than KBB), a 2001 Elantra GLS is worth a mere $2957 as a trade-in. Whoever paid nearly 6K for your car seriously got taken.

    The fact remains that Hyundai's resale is terrible. My neighbor received this response from numerous dealers: "nobody wants a 4+ year old Hyundai...once the B2B warranty wears out...nobody trust them...they don't hold value because after 60K they just wear out." One dealer (the Toyota dealer he purchased his new Camry from) told him he can't seem to sell used Hyundai's with the 2.7l because after 40K, they make an awful ticking sound when starting up...apparently it sounds like a diesel engine and customers are turned off by them...wonder why.

    In addition, anyone with any experience with dealers or with trading in cars knows that KBB isn't even close to fairly representing what a car is worth, save for a Honda or Toyota. Edmunds trade in value for his 2002 Sonata is $5357. He might have gotten more than the offered $4200 had the car not completely fallen apart after 30K miles.

    Getting back on track: If potential buyers only want to hold onto their car for 6 years or less, resale value is going to be a big factor. Thus the Yaris might be the better pick in comparison to the Accent, a car notorious for having a very poor resale value. Calling resale a "moot point" because you plan on keeping the car for 12 years (you'd be lucky to get 8 out of the Accent)is like trying to argue A/C isn't needed because you live in Minnesota.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    If you would refer back, I never posted anything about Accents having anywhere close to a high-powered motor - that was all you, with the supposedly superior VVT-i in the Yaris. Mentioning anything related to the word performance in the subcompact class is, well, preposterous :) I did mention, however, the Accent with better handling, specifically the SE 3 door version, something I came away with after test driving the Yaris and Accent back-to-back.

    By the way, just in case you haven't figured out yet, that "challenge" I posted was rhetorical.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    1) I am not sure if a lot of your stories add up

    2) You solution may be something to the effect of a lease?

    If you had told me Hyundai's resale value was terrible ten years ago, or even five, then I would have agreed with you. However, the current Hyundais, even the outgoing generations, have all had improved resale, holding their values relatively well. While overall, they are still below average in the industry, it is improving at a dramatic case, and this is the case across the lineup, especially at a time when Hyundai has committed to making quality and reliability its top priorities - something we are seeing on the new Hyundais. Keep in mind, perceptions -> resale values don't change overnight; they take time, and FWIW, Hyundai has made tremendous strides to become where they are today.

    Terrible resale values? Nope, no longer.
  • Terrible resale values? Nope, no longer.
    5 of the 10 cars on the top 10 worst resale value list are made either by Hyundai or Kia (2006 Accent being #2).
    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/115613/article.html

    No longer, huh? Hyundai has a long, long way to go.

    Let us compare the trade-in values of a used 2006 Hyundai Accent versus that of a used 2006 Toyota Corolla CE (no data on Yaris is available because it's a 2007, but Toyota models accross the line, even the ill fated Echo pretty much maintain the same resale value percentage)

    NEW 2006 Accent GLS 5-speed Edmunds TMV: $12,443 (includ. dest)
    USED 2006 Accent GLS 5-Speed Edmunds trade-in value: $9303
    1 year depreciation: 25%

    NEW 2006 Toyota Corolla CE 5-speed Edmunds TMV: $13,243(including the SMALLER $500 rebate that was offered 1 year ago, not the larger $750 rebate offered today on 2006 models)
    USED 2006 Toyota Corolla CE 5-speed Edmunds trade-in value: $11358
    1 year depreciation: 15%

    Why anyone would purchase a new Hyundai model without significant rebates is beyond me. Makes poor financial sense.
    The numbers speak for themselves

    Arguing that Hyundai models have decent resale value is a moot point.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    First, I mentioned in the post you replied to that I sold my Elantra in a private-party sale. Second, Edmunds.com's current TMV for a a private-party sale for that car, but 9 months after I sold it, is $5173. It was right around $5900 when I sold it. $700 depreciation in 9 months is not too bad IMO. And I don't think the buyer got "ripped off"; she was very pleased with the price and loves the car. Third, the TMV for trade-in is $3964, not $2957. Which is why I don't tend to trade cars in--you really get ripped off, whether it's a Hyundai or a Toyota.

    But back to the Yaris vs. Accent. Do you know the projected resale values for the 2007 Accent and Yaris, as a percentage of MSRP, from an expert source? For instance, the value after 5 or 6 years? I can't find that info. If we knew, we could do a fact-based comparison instead of talking about the resale prices of a single used Sonata or Elantra.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    Your example, a worst-case scenario because first-year depreciation is very high, demonstrates how an Accent can wind up costing less in depreciation than a Yaris. Consider that during most of 2006, the Accent had a $1000 general rebate. Deduct that from the purchase price of the Accent, and now the Accent cost you less out of pocket in first year depreciation than the Corolla. Plus you would have enjoyed some features the Corolla CE doesn't have standard, such as ABS, side airbags and curtains, 8-way adjustable driver's seat, 6-speaker stereo, and rear armrest. It's not just about the destination (resale value)... it's about the journey.
  • Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but they are wrong. According to Edmunds, a 2001 Elantra GLS 5-speed with 45K miles w/ cruise, keyless, and alarm sells at PRIVATE for $4723. Even a 2002 model with the same features and mileage sells at private for $5500. You charged your sister practically dealer retail price...nice guy.

    The point of my original post was that dealers give disproportionaly low trade-in values for Hyundais period. Most dealers will not even give the Edmunds trade-in value (evidenced by my neighbor's offer of more than 1K under edmunds' already low value) because, frankly, nobody wants a Hyundai that has no warranty. Ask your dealer, you'll get the same response. Unfortunately, most people must resort to trading in their vehicle at the dealer. Not everyone is as fortunate as you to have a unknowledgable sister you can rip off.

    The Accent has poor resale. Edmunds, ALG and my own figures point this out. There is nothing to debate. The Accent might have positive attributes, but resale certainly isn't one of them.
  • Math must not be your forte. Even assuming someone purchased a 2006 Accent for $11443 (including a 1K rebate), it STILL depreciated roughly 19% (9303/11443). The Corolla depreciated 15%.

    How about a "better" case senario.

    2002 Accent versus 2002 Toyota Echo (both roughly same original TMV)
    Accent trade-in value: $3000
    Echo trade-in value: $5776

    Which would you rather trade-in? (I pray I wouldn't own either but that's neither here nor there)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    I don't think you are using the right figures for calculating the TMV. Use these:

    2001 Elantra GLS
    Light brown
    45000 miles
    check options: cruise, keyless entry
    Outstanding condition

    See what you get. Due to variations around the country, your zip code will probably return a different answer than mine, but it should be close to $5,173 for private-party sale.

    At the time I sold the car, 9 months ago, the TMV was around $5900. Yes, my sister, who is a very sharp businesswoman and tough negotiator, thinks I am a very nice guy for selling her a great car at a fair price. :) If she didn't want it, I had another offer for $50 more, but I sold it to her because she needed a good car.

    Now can you knock off the personal attacks and stay on topic, for once??
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    Actually, math IS my forte--I was a math major in college and a math teacher. I would say my math skills are better than your reading skills. Please go back and read my post again. I was talking about DOLLARS OUT OF POCKET, not percentages that you and I can't spend. Here's the math. Since you seemed to have trouble with the resale numbers on the Elantra, I ran the numbers myself:

    2006 Corolla CE MT, new TMV including $500 rebate: $13,458
    Trade-in TMV: $10,783
    Depreciation: $2,675
    2006 Accent GLS MT, new TMV including $1000 rebate, $11,562
    Trade-in TMV: $9,322
    Depreciation: $2,240

    So the Corolla costs $435 more out of pocket in depreciation after one year than the Accent.

    As for the ECHO vs. Accent, that is a little more on topic. But you are mistaken as to the original sale prices. I know that back in 2002, Accents were selling for well under $10,000 with discounts and rebates. The list price on the top-of-the-line GL 4-door with A/C, CD stereo, height-adjustable front seat, tachometer, 60/40 rear seat, power steering/brakes, and power windows/locks/mirrors was only $11,049. What was the list price on an ECHO equipped like that, and what kind of discounts and rebates were available? I'll bet the difference in real-world sales prices was at least $2776. That's the main reason the resale value of the Accent is a lot lower than the ECHO's!
  • I provided generalized empirical evidence of the Accent's lackluster resale value while you provided anecdotal evidence of how you conned a family member into buying an overpriced Hyundai to rebut a widly recognized position that Hyundai suffers from poor resale value.

    Who is off topic?
  • I have a MA in economics and working on my JD as we speak so I trump you ;)

    The reason why resale values are calculated in percentages and not by actual dollars lost is to account for percentage losses in individual's purchasing power. Thus, it is far more detrimental to an owner of a $10K car which loses 25% of its value yet only accounts for $2500 in actual loss than the owner of a $50K car which might lose $5K in depreciation, but only account for 10% of the car's value. That loss of $2500 to the owner of the cheaper car is far worse than the loss of $5000 to the owner of the more expensive automobile. Thus the reason why the 2006 Accent placed #2 on Edmunds Top 10 Worst Resale Values and the Corolla (nor any Toyota model) was no where to be found.

    BTW, the 2002 ECHO with A/C had a MSRP of $11,685. The main reason the Accent has a lower resale value is because the Accent was rubbish. Resale value measures the value subsequent owners place on the car. Obviously, not many subsequent owners place much value on a poorly constructed Hyundai with zero remaining warranty. Again, don't take my word for it...numerous sources have already stated the painfully obvious...the Accent has poor resale value. There is no reason to debate the undebatable.
  • If you would refer back, I never posted anything about Accents having anywhere close to a high-powered motor - that was all you, with the supposedly superior VVT-i in the Yaris. Mentioning anything related to the word performance in the subcompact class is, well, preposterous I did mention, however, the Accent with better handling, specifically the SE 3 door version, something I came away with after test driving the Yaris and Accent back-to-back.

    By the way, just in case you haven't figured out yet, that "challenge" I posted was rhetorical.


    Actually, Hyundai already has a far superior 1600cc engine called "Gamma." The new engine makes 121 hp and is more fuel efficient than the "Alpha" engine.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    This isn't a competition, Adam Smith...

    Many times buyers often pay thousands below invoice + thousands below competition = greater purchasing power?

    So what you are saying, if I may flip the situation another way: owner 1) has 10,000 in savings and owner 2) has 50,000, one gets 10% in interest income, and another gets 5% in interest income, you would tell me the 10% has the greater purchasing power, right? And I would tell you in 36+ years.

    By the way, your comparison is unrealistic (thus I posted the above :) ). Edmunds and others use percentages rather than dollar amounts for effective presentation since multiple vehicles are compared across segments.

    Do you actually think owners of a $10K new car care much about purchasing power in the first place? I don't. Many times the money you saved by paying less than the competition upfront would far makeup for the difference later.
  • You don't even seem to understand the basic premise of purchasing power so I won't even bother going into it at length.

    Do you actually think owners of a $10K new car care much about purchasing power in the first place? I don't. Many times the money you saved by paying less than the competition upfront would far makeup for the difference later.

    You seem confused. Edmunds calculates residual value by evaluating a car's original TMV (which includes all incentives at the time) with the value of the car after 5 years of ownership. You arn't saving any money because those "money savings" in the form of rebates/incentives have already been reflected in the Edmunds TMV. Generally, large incentives/rebates have a negative effect on overall resale value so you really arn't gaining anything in the process (thus the reason why you won't see Honda giving many discounts).

    Refer to http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/115613/article.html

    The other issue not contemplated by pure empirical resale data is the ability to sell a particular used car in private sale. While Edmunds may provide, for example, that a given seller should be able to make $3,086 from the sale of a 2001 Hyundai Accent, the numbers do not reflect the difficulty in obtaining that sale. Cars such as 5+ year old Accents which wern't exactly in high demand when new, have an even lower demand on the used car market compared with a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic of the same vintage. Gauging your ability to sell a particular used car is easy from my experience: (1) locate your newspaper classified listings (cars.com) and write down the contact info for the sellers. (2) contact the sellers of the cars a week or 2 after the ad originally appears and ask them if the car was sold and for how much. I did this a few months ago with 8 ads attempting to sell 2000-2002 Hyundai Elantras in my area. Of the 8 cars listed, 5 were sold and 3 remained unsold. However, of the 5 sold, ALL were sold at close to the trade-in value for these respective cars because they could not get even close to the private-sale value. The owners of the 3 that remained unsold informed me that all potential buyers let them know that there was no way they would pay private-sale prices for used Hyundai's with no remaining warranty. I did the same study with 8 owners of Honda Civics of the same vintage in the area. All were sold at or higher than private-sale value with days of the the initial ad. Subsequent ads were not needed. (2 were sold at dealer-list price and those 2 cars were sold literally within hours of placing the ad)
  • I've been lurking on this board for a while because I have been considering the elantra and accent but just signed up today to post. I just don't understand why some individuals continue to argue that either resale value doesn't matter or even that the accent has a good resale value. It doesn't. Everyone knows this. I think there are many positive things about the new accent. However, I think individuals who relentlessly attempt to defend hyundai vehicles at any cost are doing a disservice to potential consumers who may really need to consider resale value as one of the factors they consider. they are buying an economy car afterall...what speaks more to economy than resale value? My advice: choose your battles...Accent resale value isn't one of them.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Please enlighten me then, but before you do, re-read my post. It reads separate as follows:

    1) Do you actually think owners of a $10K new car care much about purchasing power in the first place? I don't.

    2) Many times the money you saved by paying less than the competition upfront would far makeup for the difference later.

    Both sentences are independent of each other, as indicated by the period.

    Did you figure out why percentage is not always the better indication? :)

    Thanks for that suggestion but I probably won't have time like you did to perform the study, unless you are willing to take over my responsibility at Lehman Bros. By the way, did you sell your supposedly, "troubled" Elantra yet? Do you have your V-dub yet? I still don't understand why you bought your Elantra in the first place. :confuse: and I still would like to see photos verifying your claim of your automobile.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    Here is a question for you and for germancarfan1:

    Suppose you are negotiating with someone regarding the use of a car for one year. He gives you two options, take one of them or leave it: either pay him $2240 for the use of the car for that year, or pay him $2675.

    Which option would you choose?

    I think there is a misconception with some people that "residual percentages" are the end-all to measure resale value. Maybe for some people they are, because they like to think that they didn't pay as much for one car than another car because the "resale percentage" was better. What I am trying to encourage buyers to do is to not focus on percentages, but on actual dollars out of pocket--the cash you will lose in depreciation. When you do that, I think the resale value picture for cars like the Accent is not bad at all. And it enables the buyer to focus on buying the car that they like driving the most, rather than fretting over percentages that have no meaning to the average person and their finances.

    So that is what I wanted to say, and I will drop the subject, assuming there are no more personal attacks on me for simply stating my opinion in this matter.
  • You've answered your own question. It doesn't matter whether you look at percentages or actual dollars lost. After 5 years of ownership, the 2006 Accent is expected to hold onto a mere 23% of its value, placing it #2 on Edmunds Top 10 Worst resale values. As stated a million times already, Edmunds considers all incentives/rebates when evaluating the initial TMV of the car. Thus, in actual dollars, in 5 years you will have spent more on a 2006 Accent than you would on a 2006 Corolla. Again, this is not rocket science and I am merely reinventing the wheel so that you can understand a basic economic/accounting concept. If you plan on keeping the Accent for less than 6 years, it is a well known fact that it will be a poor financial investment. Don't agree? Take it up with Edmunds and Mr. Keynes, not me. I consider this subject closed (though it was closed even before I broached the subject).

    assuming there are no more personal attacks on me for simply stating my opinion in this matter.

    Pot calling kettle black now? Refrain from abusing users over on the Yaris forum for the sake of all of us ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,732
    As stated a million times already, Edmunds considers all incentives/rebates when evaluating the initial TMV of the car.

    That is not correct:

    However, please note that the TMV prices do not take into account the following items:

    * Manufacturer-to-consumer rebates - these are different from manufacturer-to-dealer incentives and don't affect the actual transaction price; the consumer usually has the choice either to apply these funds against the sales price as a down payment (lowering the amount to be financed) or to accept a check from the dealer for this amount.
    * Tax or Title
    * License/Registration Fees


    http://www.edmunds.com/about/pricingtable/lo/about_pricing2.html

    Since the example that you started the discussion on shows that after one year, you will have spent more on a 2006 Corolla CE than on an 2006 Accent, I am not sure how you can conclude that if you plan on keeping an Accent less than 6 years, it will be a poor financial investment. I don't have a master's degree in economics, but I always thought that one year was less than 6 years. :confuse: But please forgive me, I am just a poor math major and MBA. :blush:
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The figures Edmunds provided for me shows a higher first-year loss in value on the 2006 Corolla than the 2006 Accent, with similar equipment.
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,018
    ....I'm not afraid to admit I have lousy math skills, but I can recognize when some folks need to chill and have a cup of eggnog, or two.

    Let's keep it friendly, please.

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    The discussion is 2007 Hyundai Accent v 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift and not about Jeeps (sorry). Also, nix the personal attacks and comments.

    Keep it on topic and civil. Thanks!
  • it is all right by me! :shades:
  • OK... can we talk about the just-announced crash test results?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/19/automobiles/19auto.html?_r=1&ref=business&CFID- =1131403&CFTOKEN=16801268&oref=slogin

    "The Hyundai Accent... was near the bottom among subcompact cars in simulated test crashes with sport utilities and pickup trucks."

    It's "safe" to say that the Yaris with side air bags is a much safer car in crash situations than the Hyundai Accent.
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