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2007 Hyundai Accent v 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    How could I have mis-quoted you when I quoted you verbatim--copied/pasted your exact text? You and everyone else can read as well as I can. But yes, there are games being played here re quotes.

    Maybe you are very proud of your Yaris. I wouldn't say I am or have been very proud of any car I've owned. I'm proud of my children; that's another thing entirely. I have had a positive ownership experience with the two Hyundais I've owned. I enjoy driving my Hyundai today even though it's a dated design--the oldest design of any of Hyundai's current offerings. In many respects it's not near the car the 2007 Accent is.

    Most people will experience more problems than you simply because MOST people drive thousands more miles per year than you do. That would be true no matter what you drove.

    Like the Corolla I owned that had four major problems in less than 3 years?

    About the Scoupe/Excel stuff... since that is off-topic, were you just practicing the lines you use on customers when they say, "Well, we're also looking at the Accent"? Did you look at that CR 2006 Annual Auto issue? Did you notice Hyundai isn't anywhere near worst? Did you notice today's date--October 3, 2006? Not October 3, 1994? The last model year for the Excel was 1994.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    When you imply that the sentence you quoted was me saying Hyundai had never improved, yes, I think it was CLEARLY a mis-quote.

    Watch, here's a quote of yours:

    "You and everyone else can read as well as I can."

    Wow? Really? Seems like there was more to what you were saying there... but what do I know?

    But on to less trivial things... Yes, we DO poke fun at Hyundai's history. It's off topic a little, but in general, Hyundai/KIA were the laughing stock of the industry. That's a hard thing to shake.

    Indeed it is 2006. Let's have a look at the current CR for a moment and check Hyundai vs. Toyota?

    Yikes.

    ECHO (old-gen Yaris) vs. Accent?

    Yikes.

    If it's changing (Hyundai being as reliable, or even close to for that matter, Toyota), it hasn't happened yet.

    Also realize that AGE/MILEAGE plays a major role in reliability too... If I only drove a Model T 50 miles a year, I may consider it to be reliable. The word MOST (people) has a key importance also, because most people drive 12k to 15k per year (or more), and are exposed to MANY more age related problems than you are (driving less than 10k per).

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    I never said that you said Hyundai never improved. As you what you imply from what I said, I can't help you there.

    ECHO (old-gen Yaris) vs. Accent?

    Yikes.

    If it's changing (Hyundai being as reliable, or even close to for that matter, Toyota), it hasn't happened yet.


    I guess you didn't look at that CR report. It shows the latest reliability rating for the last-generation Accent to be a solid red dot--same as the latest rating for the ECHO. Or maybe you said "Yikes" because you did see that the Accent has drawn even to the ECHO.

    IMO driving 20k miles a year on the highway is easier on a car than driving 10k miles in stop-and-go city traffic, with lots of short trips. Which is what I do much of the time.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    With regards to my "quote" you said:

    "There is plenty of data to draw conclusions about the reliability of Hyundais improving over the past few years"

    Pretty clear you wanted to make it seem like I had said Hyundai hadn't improved... but whatever...

    I did look at that CR. Do you understand how it works? Consumer Reports publishes all of the data they have available at the time they go to press. I would HOPE that a car with less than two years of data would be reporting all red...

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble? I'll give you a hint before you bring up the IQS... it isn't less than 3 years, and it certainly isn't less than 90 days lol...

    My "yikes" was in reference to the significant fall-off nearly EVERY Hyundai has (from red circles to black), once a little long term data is collected. And we aren't talking 1994 here, try looking back 3-5 years or so...

    "yikes". For both Hyundai and the Accent. But not to worry, they're getting better... almost as good as Toyota... do you promise? :P

    Excuse me if I, like the rest of the majority of car buyers, want to see it evidenced first, before we go out and spend so much as a penny on a company that less than 10 years ago, was the laughing stock of the industry.

    I have NEVER stated the Accent wasn't a nice car, just that the Yaris has much better predicted reliability going for it, in addition to residual (resale value), and gas-mileage. It may be all new, but it uses an awful lot of technology that has been proven darn near bulletproof by Consumer Reports and others.

    The same cannot be said for the Hyundai Accent.

    You are o.k. with that risk based upon your individual past experiences. That's fine. I hope it works out for you.

    Historically, even as recent as the last 5 years, you'd have far less to "risk" if you went with a Yaris.

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    Corporate reliability record - yes. I thought we were agreed on that way back? As for the Yaris' predicted reliability record, I'm not sure I am smarter than CR in making predictions there. One would think the new Yaris would be reliable, but then there have been some interesting glitches on the new Camry, and an upsurge in problems and recalls in general on Toyotas recently, for example:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060805/news_1b5recalls.html

    Trend for Hyundai: up, per CR, JD Power, etc. Trend for Toyota: troubled, per the admission of their own executives.

    Resale value - as a percentage of MSRP, yes. Per my example earlier, I have doubts that it is an advantage in the real world in which Accents sell for considerably less up front than does the Yaris.

    Gas mileage - no one is disputing that the Yaris has the advantage there.

    It may be all new, but it uses an awful lot of technology that has been proven darn near bulletproof by Consumer Reports and others. The same cannot be said for the Hyundai Accent.

    Maybe you need to learn more about the Accent, because that statement is untrue. The new Accent uses a proven engine design. Like on the Yaris, the body is all-new. But it was created using proven computerized assembly techniques that Hyundai has perfected over the past several years--using their own robots. Both cars have a minimum of fancy features, so there is not much to break.

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble?

    Actually, with Toyotas it seems many of them are having trouble pretty early--e.g. the transmission problems on the 2007 Camry. Maybe it has to do with the fact (see article above) that 68% of their recalls are due to design problems. If there's a design problem, it should show up pretty early.

    If the Accent were not a reliable car, why would Consumer Reports include the Accent (the prior generation) in its list of recommended used cars, just as it did the ECHO?

    Based on available data, I think you are over-exaggerating the risk associated with buying an Accent vs. a Yaris.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Based on available data, I think you are over-exaggerating the risk associated with buying an Accent vs. a Yaris."

    Please show me where I described it as anything but more risk? Which even you admit... I guess you over-exaggerate too then lol...

    Even your own estimate of resale cuts in the direction of the YARIS for most people. If you drive less than 10k per year, it's STILL within a few dollars (less than a hundred), on a comparably equipped car.

    But we've already decided that for you (cash buyer, drives far less than average, plans on keeping it forever) the Hyundai is probably a pretty good deal.

    What about the AVERAGE driver that may be perusing these forums though? You know, the one who finances, drives 15k a year, and trades every few years?

    The Yaris will cost him/her less, comparably equipped (even by your own scenario).

    I also never said the Accent was a bad car (even the old one), just inferior when compared to the ECHO over time. There are FAR worse choices. I have never disputed that.

    "with Toyotas it seems many of them are having trouble pretty early"

    Really? I guess by "many" you really mean "few", unless you are trying to say Hyundai has MORE than many, seeing as how it finishes behind Toyota in the problems per 100 category in your oft quoted JD Power.

    More than many? Yikes...

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    Please show me where I described it as anything but more risk?

    OK, how about this from a few minutes ago:

    Historically, even as recent as the last 5 years, you'd have far less to "risk" [emphasis mine] if you went with a Yaris.


    Not sure what buying with cash has to do with this. Since the Accent costs less up front than the Yaris, why should taking out a loan be a problem with the Accent, given the Accent's real-world advantage in dollar depreciation over 5 years? Also, "keeping it forever" is an exaggeration I think. After five years, you would likely lose more money on depreciation on a Yaris than an Accent. Unless five years is "forever" for you?

    According to the U.S. Government, the average miles driven per car in 2001 (most recent numbers I could find) was 12,041--up just a few hundred miles since 1994. So is 10,000 miles "far less than average"? I wouldn't say that.

    So wouldn't someone who buys a car with a loan, drives 12,000 miles a year, and owns the car for at least five years (the length of many loans these days) be pretty "average"? And please explain to me why a Yaris would cost this kind of person less? We've already established the Accent is likely to have an advantage in lower depreciation expenses. The Accent will be under full warranty for all five years and 60,000 miles that this "average" driver will own the car. The finance charges on the Accent will be lower, due to lower up front price. The lower gas costs for the Yaris may offset some, maybe all of these higher costs. But I don't see how you can infer from this that the costs of owning the Yaris will be lower.

    As for the "many" Toyotas having problems, look back at the article I posted earlier. And I think you need to check back with JD Power, because it was Toyota that finished behind Hyundai in their latest report (at least the one I quoted earlier).
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Again, if you consider that "many" problems, Hyundai has more than the "many" problems Toyota does:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/07/jdpower_iqs/

    If you want to make this a discussion about which manufacturer has more awards (even recent ones), let's go... ;) But I have a hunch you already know how it'll end up.

    And didn't you say not too long ago that you drove LESS than 10k per year? I think that's only fair to describe as far less than average, even if you believe the average to be 12k today, that's a full 17% or more (less) (depending on many miles less than 10k you drive).

    I also thought we settled long ago, that on comparably equipped cars, using TMV, that once you factor in AVERAGE gas use, the Yaris is in fact less expensive...

    Now you want to throw in finance charges? Ok, let's look at the difference in finance charges, on a difference of $1000, over 5 years, on an avearage APR (let's say 10%). Is it more or less than $300???

    And you say 5 years is the average length of the LOAN, but do you know how many are actually paid to term? I do. It's less than 50%. That means, the MAJORITY of car loans never have every payment made... hmmm... falls in line with the point people don't, on average, keep cars very long compared to you... now doesn't it?

    IF you calculate in purchase price, depreciation, finance charges, and gas-mileage (no matter how much of a window you look at) the Yaris either beats, or is within a hundred dollars or so, of the Accent.

    The Yaris is, for most people, a better buy $$$-wise than the Accent.

    T

    PS: With regards to my "risk" quote... I don't think that's even the slightest exaggeration, especially when you look at the reliability history of the ECHO compared to the Accent. The Accent may not be "unreliable", but it is indeed, far less reliable than the ECHO. Sorry
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The JD Power study referred, Hyundai finished ahead of Toyota in the non-luxury nameplate. Backy's right because Yaris is not a Toyota, not Lexus.

    In your point, Comparing Hyundai to Lexus, well, that should be a complement for Hyundai :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Right, and that is the IQS study.

    I am trying to find a good link to the "problems per 100" study, which is more applicable to the statement of Toyota having "many" problems.

    T
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    You're looking for the VDS study. Actually both IQS and VDS are measured in terms of "problems per 100". By the way, VDS studies 3-year-old vehicles, not exactly relevant for this discussion. Let's come back in 2010 to discuss these 07 models :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Cool, did not know that :)

    Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to the current VDS? I can't seem to find one :(

    That way, we can look at how "many" more problems Toyota has than Hyundai, when we look at a slightly wider ownership window than 90 days?

    T
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The VDS is a reliability study of 2003MY vehicles. Toyota 179; Hyundai 253

    The reason why it's not relevant discussion is because both models are new (well, Yaris, relative), so reliability is still a moot point. Of course, everyone, including Toyota, would tell you the new Hyundai lineup are a lot better than previous models, even back track 3 years (2003) :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    The other reason that I expect tjw1308 will agree a 3-year period isn't relevant is because he said so earlier:

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble? I'll give you a hint before you bring up the IQS... it isn't less than 3 years, and it certainly isn't less than 90 days lol...

    So since most cars don't start having trouble within 3 years, a 3-year reliability study will be of limited value.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    See, I think it is pertinent seeing as they are BOTH "new" models. All we have to go off of is history, not just a 90 day "honeymoon" (people like new and shiny things haha).

    As discussed before, despite being "new" the Yaris shares a lot mechanically in common with the ECHO. So does the Accent (with the previous-gen). Look at the history of both, and it's easy to PREDICT that the Yaris will be more reliable.

    The other issue is, Backy made the statement that Toyota is having "many" problems.

    3 years ago is too long now? I might even give you that they've come a long way from the days of the Scoupe/Excel (12 years ago), but THREE years is too long??? Come on now :)

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    It's of more relevance than a 90 day study for sure!

    And since you want to ring the IQS like the Liberty Bell, funny how that "honeymoon" wears off in less than 3 years now isn't it?

    :P

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    If you want to make this a discussion about which manufacturer has more awards (even recent ones), let's go...

    Why would we want to do that? Besides being off-topic, it would highlight the fact that Toyota offers many more models than Hyundai as well as outsells them worldwide by, what was it, 20:1? ;)

    But if you want to bring up awards for the Yaris or Accent hatchbacks, I think that would be pertinent. For example, there was the recent award by cars.com re the Accent being the value champ over the Fit and Yaris. If I find any others I'll let you know.

    My miles driven over the years has varied but is overall around 10k a year +/-. If you consider that "far less" than 12k, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    I also thought we settled long ago, that on comparably equipped cars, using TMV, that once you factor in AVERAGE gas use, the Yaris is in fact less expensive...


    I don't recall settling that. I do recall agreeing that the gas savings could offset the Accent's depreciation (dollar) advantage, depending on gas prices and miles driven. But one thing I forgot about is finance charges--you pointed out that the average buyer finances their cars, and the Accent costs less up front comparably equipped, so there's that factor to consider also. (And recall the difference in purchase price was greater than $1000.) As well as when you look at a 5 year, 12k miles/year horizon, you have two more years of full warranty coverage on the Accent than on the Yaris, so repair expenses should be less on average (not everyone's Yaris will break in years 4-5, but some will).

    As for loans not being paid to term, how much of that is due to the car being sold vs. the loan being paid off early? On the car loans I've made over the years, I paid only one out to full term--the rest I paid off early (and not because I sold the car).

    IF you calculate in purchase price, depreciation, finance charges, and gas-mileage (no matter how much of a window you look at) the Yaris either beats, or is within a hundred dollars or so, of the Accent.


    Not sure how you figure that. The Accent holds the advantage in purchase price, depreciation (in dollars), finance charges. Can the gas savings offset that? Let's see with an example based on an "average" driver who drives the U.S. average 12k miles a year for five years, assuming $3 a gallon:

    Accent MT: 33.5 mpg, $5373 in gas costs.

    Yaris MT: 37 mpg, $4864 in gas costs.

    So the Yaris saves about $500 in gas over five years. Does that outweigh both the depreciation dollar savings and finance charge savings and repair cost savings over five years?

    As for "far more risk", you are entitled to your opinion, which I disagree with. At least you admit now that you actually said it. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    Hey, you forgot who posted the link to the story on the IQS to tout how Toyota beat Hyundai... or not. :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Let's have a look:

    "So the purchase prices for sake of this example are $13,040 (TMV less rebate) for the Accent and $14,950 for the Yaris (TMV, assuming no rebate). After five years according to ALG's estimates, the Accent will be worth 23% of its MSRP and the Yaris will be worth 32%. That's $3334 for the Accent and $4784 for the Yaris. But the Accent actually cost $13,040. So over five years, the Accent buyer lost $9696 in depreciation, and the Yaris buyer lost $10,166. Please check my math on this example, but it looks like the Yaris buyer lost more money in five years than the Accent buyer did."

    After pointing out the gas-savings the Yaris provides, you say:

    "You are correct [my emphasis] that the $500 difference in my example would be made up in gas savings, assuming 10k miles a year or more over five years and $3.00 a gallon gas"

    Hmmm... sounds like you were convinced...

    And now you do drive an average of 10k per? Seems just a while ago it was "less"... oh well, guess it just depends on your position in the argument.

    Actually, very few car loans are paid off early (and not traded in on something else). Just another minority you find yourself in (but at least it's a good one :) ).

    As for the risk, it's not just MY opinion.

    If you ask any reasonable NON-Hyundai/Toyota owner which vehicle (Toyota or Hyundai) they believe to be the riskier to own, you know as well as I do how lopsided it would be.

    "Far" riskier I say? Well, even if we ONLY go back 3 years... it looks to be that way doesn't it???

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Hey, you forgot who posted the link to the story on the IQS to tout how Toyota beat Hyundai... or not."

    I did :)

    So is it valid or not? Because if it is, it opens up a whole can of worms with regards to Hyundai's recent history now doesn't it? Especially with Toyota having so "many" problems ;)

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    Please go back and read what I said a couple of posts ago. You either didn't read it the first time, or conveniently ignored it. I agreed that the depreciation savings on the Accent could be made up by the gas savings on the Yaris. But there's also finance savings and repair savings. So using the example you reposted:

    Accent: $13,040 price + 6.5% tax + $300 license/fees (plug in your own numbers) = $14,177. Put 10% down, finance $12,759 at 7% (pretty good rate these days) for 60 months, total interest is $2400.

    Yaris: $14,950 price + 6.5% tax + $300 license/fees = $16,222. Put 10% down, finance $14,600 at 7% for 60 months, total interest is $2746. Difference is $346 (assuming very few car loans are paid off early, as you noted).

    Plus add the costs of any repairs on the Yaris in years 4 and 5 that are not covered by Toyota's bumper-to-bumper warranty (but would be covered under Hyundai's 5-year b-to-b warranty). Plus you save about $60/year on roadside assistance (e.g. AAA) fees, which are paid for by Hyundai (very nice little perk, if you have a spouse who likes to lock the keys in the car, or gets a flat tire etc.).

    The savings with the Accent just keep adding up! The main risk with the Accent might be the trouble you will have figuring out what to do with all that extra money. :)

    I've already explained how much I drive in a year. Do you want it down to the 1/10th of a mile? You haven't been too precise in other matters (like on how many cars Toyota makes compared to Hyundai)--why are you so picky on that one? Is it because I used some facts to point out that the average driver drives not 15k a year, as you claimed, but 12k?

    As for risk, there is also the risk associated with driving around in a small car without safety features such as side airbags and ABS. There is the greater risk of driving a car with lesser crash protection than another car. I find those risks harder to accept than any risk there may be in differences in reliability.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    Didn't you already post your opinion that reliability studies covering 90 days are not worth much, because few if any problems happen in the first 90 days--or even in the first 3 years? I thought I read that...

    But if you think these short-term reliability studies ARE valid, OK by me. The fact that Hyundai topped Toyota in the latest IQS is significant then, isn't it?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Ok, since you won't let it die, over what TIMEFRAME did I say Toyota had outsold Hyundai 20:1? Cause I'll let you in on a little secret... they have :P ...

    IF you add in the extra miles in gas, the Yaris gobbles up all of your "extra" savings too... guess you just forgot that we figured 10k per (since we were using a cash buyer driving that little).

    And as for wanting it to the 1/10th of a mile, as a matter of fact, YES, I DO. Especially when you want to break your "savings" down to a possible savings of $60 in roadside assistance... sheesh, who's nickel and diming now? Seems a 10% gas mileage difference is equally significant, but whatever...

    I actually HAVE documentation from ALG (trying to find a link, but I don't think they publish it online) that states the average mileage for a non-luxury car for 2004 (not 2001), was almost 14700... A little closer to 15k than 12k, but again, whatever...

    And in the Yaris you cite in your example (remember, you loaded it up to get your "savings"), you DO get ABS and Side Airbags, so not sure where you're trying to go with your "risk" argument.

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    My question wasn't if I thought they were valid, it was if you do?

    I'll let you in on a another secret here too... it's a set-up ;) . I think you realize how Hyundai does in comparison in almost every other test conducted by JD Power over the last 10 years (even the recent ones).

    My hunch is, you'll only grant validity to the one Hyundai eeks out, and claim everything else is irrelevant or too old (too old being three years...).

    T
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Clue me in as to which time period you had 20:1...

    Doesn't matter, we are talking about Accent vs. Yaris, not Hyundai vs. Toyota...you are being way off-topic here. Plus, both are new cars (especially Hyundai's) so reliablity is a moot point to be even discussing...give it a few years and then we'll chat :)

    And your second "secret", I am puzzled too, again off-topic, but even so, the fact remains Hyundai has made the biggest jump in the auto industry, as far as quality and reliabilty are concerned...compare Toyota when they are relatively new to the US markets vs. Hyundai present time, that should be somewhat fair...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    The time frame you cited was NOW, as in present tense, as in "Toyota outsells [emphasis mine] Hyundai by a more than 20 to 1 margin worldwide."

    The calculations I provided on gas savings (and finance savings and repair savings) were based on an "average" driver who drives 12k a year (please share that ALG link with us when you find it, try Google), finances the car, and owns it for at least five years. I don't consider savings of $300 ($60 a year for five years) nickel-and-diming. If you do, then wouldn't the $500 in gas savings over five years for the Yaris be nickel-and-diming also? $300 a pop adds up to big money: about $350 in finance savings, $300 in roadside assistance savings, some $$$ in repair savings, plus the savings in depreciation of about $500. Subtract the $500 in gas savings on the Yaris, and you are way ahead with the Accent. Plus outside of the financial advantages, you get a car with more room, a more comfortable driving position, more power, better crash-test scores, more standard safety features, more standard convenience features, and a longer warranty. I think that spells "Value".

    The Yaris and Accent I used in my example earlier (which you cited also btw) were well-equipped, with power package, alloys, ABS, and side airbags. I equipped the two cars as closely as possible, at least in pixels. Real-world availability is another matter. The Accent SE comes standard with all that equipment, so I know I can buy one with ABS and side bags. I don't know that for the Yaris. I did ask you awhile back how many Yaris hatches with stick, ABS, and side bags you have seen at your dealership. You chose not to answer the question.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Regarding the 20:1, I pulled up some figures:

    Toyota sold 8.12 million vehicles in 2005 worldwide, while Hyundai sold 3.72 million vehicles. Even if you take the Kia portion out, that is still nowhere near 20:1...
    World 2005 - (a little over 2:1 but probably close to 3:1 excluding Kia figures)

    In the US:

    Toyota in 2005: 2.26 million vehicles
    Hyundai in 2005: 0.42 million vehicles
    US 2005 (a little over 5:1)

    2006 YTD (thru. Sept):
    Toyota: 1.93 million
    Hyundai: 0.36 million
    US 2006 YTD (the same as above - a little over 5:1)

    20:1 would not make Hyundai the 6th largest automaker in the world :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Just to put it to rest, since 1980, what's that margin? See, never said where to start now did I :P ? Also never said for what duration... Did/do they outsell them 20:1 in a given hour? Yup. Backy is quoting something that he misinterpreted... but he does that a lot, so no worries!

    And if real world availability of the Yaris is the best you can do... you're really grasping at straws now lol.

    Seems I remember how you spelled value backy... wasn't it F-I-T (despite being more expensive, less equipped, and shorter warrantied)?

    A customer of mine today gave an interesting analogy (I'm paraphrasing here):

    "Hyundai is in a way like the lifetime D student that somehow managed to pull out a few B's and A's for a couple semester's. Sure, it MAY be a sign of a legitimate turn-around, but you can't just IGNORE his history. If Hyundai can keep it up for more than a few years, they'll have more believers. Until then, they still are what they were."

    If you want to take the chance that despite their history they have legitimately turned it around, then fine, it's a free country.

    Until they PROVE otherwise (through more than just a handful of short-term awards), your money is better spent on something that has better predicted reliability, better gas mileage, better resale, and a PROVEN history.

    And to top it off, my one and only true shot, it's NOT a Hyundai... In today's world, as much as you are blinded to the fact, that counts. It may not be fair, or right, or whatever, but it's what you get when a lot of people still view the company as the "crooked H".

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "give it a few years and then we'll chat :) "

    Fine! I have no issue what so ever in waiting to see if it turns out like you guys think it will.

    But that's the whole point. You believe Hyundai has turned the corner. I'm not sold, and neither is a LOT of the public... And despite making MAJOR strides, they still don't rate well long term against Toyota.

    IF and when they do, the "value" argument may be valid. But until then, even looking back 3 years paints very different pictures of the two brands.

    In three years, I may have to eat crow, I may not. There is currently less risk involved going with a proven winner though. Hyundai isn't, and Toyota is.

    So if they are within a few hundred bucks of one another and you WEREN'T a Hyundai/Toyota owner to start with, what would the intelligent decision be? Going with an unknown that just started building "quality" in the last three years? Really?

    Let's just wait and see...

    Until then though, the Yaris is the better choice.

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,758
    I see that since you can't make a case for the Yaris, other than it has a very good chance to be reliable and it has excellent fuel economy, you turn back to your same-old attacks on Hyundai in general. How about backing up your arguments with some facts, as I and others have done?

    Your attempts to extricate yourself from your errors of fact used to be amusing; now they are getting old.

    Also I'd really appreciate it if you'd make an attempt to read my posts. I explained before why I prefer the Accent over the Fit. I'm not going to cover that ground again here, since it's off-topic.

    BTW, your customer's analogy is amusing too. Most college students graduate in 4-5 years. Hyundai has had a solid record of reliability for at least that long. For instance, go look at how many below-average reliability scores the Accent has had in the past five years in CR's rankings. Zero. The record over that time since 2001 is two average, one above average, one much better than average (and not enough data for 2005). Hyundai overall, across its entire lineup, has had TWO below-average scores in the past five years. And one of those, for 2001 on the XG300, is on a car that isn't made anymore. And that is a "D average"? Not nearly. More like a solid B at worst.

    How many more years does Hyundai have to have solid reliability scores before some people accept it's not the Hyundai of old? For Toyota bigots (including Toyota salespeople), it will always be "a few more years", won't it? Otherwise there won't be a reason for buyers to spend a lot more on cars like the Yaris than for cars like the Accent.

    I do agree with you on at least one thing: the shot you and others like to repeat, "it's NOT a Hyundai," is not fair, or correct. But then, there are still people who won't buy a Japanese car because they remember the low-quality tin boxes from Japan from the '60s and early '70s, or maybe just because they remember Pearl Harbor. Not valid reasons in my opinion, but that's what you get when people have long memories. Their loss, their missed opportunity.
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