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2007 Hyundai Accent v 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    I accept that you define predicted reliability as you stated. I think that it's more reasonable though to measure predicted reliability based on the actual car. So if a car is totally redesigned, as the Accent and Yaris hatches were for 2007, I think that has to be taken into account. Which is what CR does when it reports on predicted reliability for cars. Note that in their 2006 Annual Auto issue, they state for their predicted reliability for the Accent and Yaris simply "New".

    The problem with using the reliability of old designs as a predictor of reliability of new designs is that is doesn't take into account the quality improvements--or slides in quality for that matter--in the new designs. Hyundai is trending up. Toyota has been strong for many years in reliability, but recently their executives and the press have voiced concerns over an increasing number of quality problems in Toyota's new models. Will the Accent continue Hyundai's upward trend in reliability? Will the Yaris continue Toyota's tradition for reliability? I think it's too early to say for sure. If I had to go only on the reliability of the old models, the Accent's record per CR and other sources is acceptable to me. I know that may not be the case with everyone.

    You are correct that the $500 difference in my example would be made up in gas savings, assuming 10k miles a year or more over five years and $3.00 a gallon gas. If someone drives less than that, as I do, the amount is not made up--although gas prices could go above $3.00. But I have to consider that over those five years, I would be driving a car in the Accent SE that has a lot more of what I look for in a car. It would be worth it to me to pay more than for the Yaris. I realize many will disagree with me on that. For example, if having seven cup holders is a "blocker" requirement for you, then that drops the Accent hatch out of any consideration whatsoever. ;)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Actually, believe it or not, I pretty much agree 100%.

    T
  • I couldn't resist commenting... I test drove an automatic yaris liftback in August in NH and fell in love immediately. I'm waiting for a stick shift with power package and praying I get it. I know it was years ago but a friend bought a Hyundai and it was a piece of crap.. I just couldn't consider one, I'll stick with Toyota's or Honda's.. both have been great buys in the past and sooooo reliable!
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Exactly why "predicted" reliability is so important... everything from perception to residuals are based on what people remember about old ones, not how nice the new ones "might" be.

    Once bitten, twice shy :)

    The Yaris OTOH, is the follow-up to a car that CR gave almost ENTIRELY full red (the best) circles accross the board.

    And I swear, if someone brings up the Toyopet... lol... Anyone find me a COLOR photo of one yet? :P Or know any of the 3 people who owned one and are still alive??? j/k

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    The first Toyota I owned, a Corolla, had three powertrain problems (two of which I had to pay for) and one electrical system problem (also which I had to pay for) in its first 3 years. Plus the trunk leaked during hard rains, or going through an automatic car wash. Guess I would never want to buy another Toyota! Oh wait... I did buy two others. They were very reliable. Also much more refined than my first Corolla. They were very good cars (another Corolla, and a Celica). I'm glad I gave Toyota a second chance.
  • The big thing missed for ME is the "true cost od ownership". Check the price of a 60K service on both...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    Well, don't keep us in suspense--what are the 60k service costs for both cars?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Guess I would never want to buy another Toyota!"

    And if your problems were in fact in line with the majority of owners, I wouldn't blame you one bit if you didn't.

    But we aren't talking about isolated cases here... we are talking about broad spectrums of ownership. Of which, overwhelmingly, have indicated Toyota to be a superior brand with regards to reliability.

    If things are indeed changing, there isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions to that effect... YET. There may be, in a while, but for now I doubt anyone but a Hyundai owner would care to take up the argument that a Hyundai is as reliable as a Toyota.

    Historically it isn't true, perception-wise it isn't true, and until data conclusively proves so IN THE FUTURE, there isn't much to say for the present either.

    By all accounts, the Yaris is PREDICTED to be a more reliable car. I think history more than supports that opinion...

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    But we aren't talking about isolated cases here...

    Odd... you didn't say that a few posts back when someone mentioned a friend had trouble with a Hyundai years ago.

    As for a Hyundai is as reliable as a Toyota: that has been my experience in owning three Toyotas and two Hyundais. Actually, considering my first Toyota, my Hyundais have been more reliable than Toyota overall. Don't you think people consider their personal experiences with a brand in deciding whether to buy that brand again? I think it's a pretty major consideration.

    If things are indeed changing, there isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions to that effect... YET.

    There is plenty of data to draw conclusions about the reliability of Hyundais improving over the past few years. All you need to do is check out the past few years' of CR's reliability surveys, or JD Power's annual reports on reliability to see the upward trend. Go take a look at the 2006 CR Annual Auto Issue. Hyundais used to be a joke because of their reliability. Take a look at how many brands have overall predicted reliability records better than Hyundai in that CR issue. Not too many.

    Yes, Toyota is one of them. (Although the Yaris is too new to have a reliability record, at least according to the accounts of CR.) That point is not in dispute, although you keep bringing it up as if it were. If someone wants superior--not just acceptable, but superior--predicted reliability in a car above everything else, the Yaris (or maybe the Fit) is the logical choice. If other considerations are as important or more important, then it's not a slam-dunk for the Yaris.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Hey now, let's not play the misquote game again... I never said HYUNDAI wasn't improving, now did I??? And I wasn't the one who said my friend had problems... Although I know a few that have (with Hyundais).

    What I did say was that there was NO evidence that they have become as reliable as Toyota, so claiming that they've come a long way is still afar cry from being EVEN. They may be getting CLOSER, but they aren't there yet, and that is black and white.

    Look, I get that you are very proud of your Hyundai, and truly, that's cool. Nothing wrong with going off of personal experiences either. It's obvious that by your own habits (driving less than 10k a year), the Hyundai may be a good choice for you. Most people will experience more problems than you simply because MOST people drive thousands more miles per year than you do. That would be true no matter what you drove.

    The Yaris is a better choice with regards to gas-mileage, residual, and predicted reliability.

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    How could I have mis-quoted you when I quoted you verbatim--copied/pasted your exact text? You and everyone else can read as well as I can. But yes, there are games being played here re quotes.

    Maybe you are very proud of your Yaris. I wouldn't say I am or have been very proud of any car I've owned. I'm proud of my children; that's another thing entirely. I have had a positive ownership experience with the two Hyundais I've owned. I enjoy driving my Hyundai today even though it's a dated design--the oldest design of any of Hyundai's current offerings. In many respects it's not near the car the 2007 Accent is.

    Most people will experience more problems than you simply because MOST people drive thousands more miles per year than you do. That would be true no matter what you drove.

    Like the Corolla I owned that had four major problems in less than 3 years?

    About the Scoupe/Excel stuff... since that is off-topic, were you just practicing the lines you use on customers when they say, "Well, we're also looking at the Accent"? Did you look at that CR 2006 Annual Auto issue? Did you notice Hyundai isn't anywhere near worst? Did you notice today's date--October 3, 2006? Not October 3, 1994? The last model year for the Excel was 1994.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    When you imply that the sentence you quoted was me saying Hyundai had never improved, yes, I think it was CLEARLY a mis-quote.

    Watch, here's a quote of yours:

    "You and everyone else can read as well as I can."

    Wow? Really? Seems like there was more to what you were saying there... but what do I know?

    But on to less trivial things... Yes, we DO poke fun at Hyundai's history. It's off topic a little, but in general, Hyundai/KIA were the laughing stock of the industry. That's a hard thing to shake.

    Indeed it is 2006. Let's have a look at the current CR for a moment and check Hyundai vs. Toyota?

    Yikes.

    ECHO (old-gen Yaris) vs. Accent?

    Yikes.

    If it's changing (Hyundai being as reliable, or even close to for that matter, Toyota), it hasn't happened yet.

    Also realize that AGE/MILEAGE plays a major role in reliability too... If I only drove a Model T 50 miles a year, I may consider it to be reliable. The word MOST (people) has a key importance also, because most people drive 12k to 15k per year (or more), and are exposed to MANY more age related problems than you are (driving less than 10k per).

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    I never said that you said Hyundai never improved. As you what you imply from what I said, I can't help you there.

    ECHO (old-gen Yaris) vs. Accent?

    Yikes.

    If it's changing (Hyundai being as reliable, or even close to for that matter, Toyota), it hasn't happened yet.


    I guess you didn't look at that CR report. It shows the latest reliability rating for the last-generation Accent to be a solid red dot--same as the latest rating for the ECHO. Or maybe you said "Yikes" because you did see that the Accent has drawn even to the ECHO.

    IMO driving 20k miles a year on the highway is easier on a car than driving 10k miles in stop-and-go city traffic, with lots of short trips. Which is what I do much of the time.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    With regards to my "quote" you said:

    "There is plenty of data to draw conclusions about the reliability of Hyundais improving over the past few years"

    Pretty clear you wanted to make it seem like I had said Hyundai hadn't improved... but whatever...

    I did look at that CR. Do you understand how it works? Consumer Reports publishes all of the data they have available at the time they go to press. I would HOPE that a car with less than two years of data would be reporting all red...

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble? I'll give you a hint before you bring up the IQS... it isn't less than 3 years, and it certainly isn't less than 90 days lol...

    My "yikes" was in reference to the significant fall-off nearly EVERY Hyundai has (from red circles to black), once a little long term data is collected. And we aren't talking 1994 here, try looking back 3-5 years or so...

    "yikes". For both Hyundai and the Accent. But not to worry, they're getting better... almost as good as Toyota... do you promise? :P

    Excuse me if I, like the rest of the majority of car buyers, want to see it evidenced first, before we go out and spend so much as a penny on a company that less than 10 years ago, was the laughing stock of the industry.

    I have NEVER stated the Accent wasn't a nice car, just that the Yaris has much better predicted reliability going for it, in addition to residual (resale value), and gas-mileage. It may be all new, but it uses an awful lot of technology that has been proven darn near bulletproof by Consumer Reports and others.

    The same cannot be said for the Hyundai Accent.

    You are o.k. with that risk based upon your individual past experiences. That's fine. I hope it works out for you.

    Historically, even as recent as the last 5 years, you'd have far less to "risk" if you went with a Yaris.

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    Corporate reliability record - yes. I thought we were agreed on that way back? As for the Yaris' predicted reliability record, I'm not sure I am smarter than CR in making predictions there. One would think the new Yaris would be reliable, but then there have been some interesting glitches on the new Camry, and an upsurge in problems and recalls in general on Toyotas recently, for example:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060805/news_1b5recalls.html

    Trend for Hyundai: up, per CR, JD Power, etc. Trend for Toyota: troubled, per the admission of their own executives.

    Resale value - as a percentage of MSRP, yes. Per my example earlier, I have doubts that it is an advantage in the real world in which Accents sell for considerably less up front than does the Yaris.

    Gas mileage - no one is disputing that the Yaris has the advantage there.

    It may be all new, but it uses an awful lot of technology that has been proven darn near bulletproof by Consumer Reports and others. The same cannot be said for the Hyundai Accent.

    Maybe you need to learn more about the Accent, because that statement is untrue. The new Accent uses a proven engine design. Like on the Yaris, the body is all-new. But it was created using proven computerized assembly techniques that Hyundai has perfected over the past several years--using their own robots. Both cars have a minimum of fancy features, so there is not much to break.

    Do you know when MOST cars start having trouble?

    Actually, with Toyotas it seems many of them are having trouble pretty early--e.g. the transmission problems on the 2007 Camry. Maybe it has to do with the fact (see article above) that 68% of their recalls are due to design problems. If there's a design problem, it should show up pretty early.

    If the Accent were not a reliable car, why would Consumer Reports include the Accent (the prior generation) in its list of recommended used cars, just as it did the ECHO?

    Based on available data, I think you are over-exaggerating the risk associated with buying an Accent vs. a Yaris.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "Based on available data, I think you are over-exaggerating the risk associated with buying an Accent vs. a Yaris."

    Please show me where I described it as anything but more risk? Which even you admit... I guess you over-exaggerate too then lol...

    Even your own estimate of resale cuts in the direction of the YARIS for most people. If you drive less than 10k per year, it's STILL within a few dollars (less than a hundred), on a comparably equipped car.

    But we've already decided that for you (cash buyer, drives far less than average, plans on keeping it forever) the Hyundai is probably a pretty good deal.

    What about the AVERAGE driver that may be perusing these forums though? You know, the one who finances, drives 15k a year, and trades every few years?

    The Yaris will cost him/her less, comparably equipped (even by your own scenario).

    I also never said the Accent was a bad car (even the old one), just inferior when compared to the ECHO over time. There are FAR worse choices. I have never disputed that.

    "with Toyotas it seems many of them are having trouble pretty early"

    Really? I guess by "many" you really mean "few", unless you are trying to say Hyundai has MORE than many, seeing as how it finishes behind Toyota in the problems per 100 category in your oft quoted JD Power.

    More than many? Yikes...

    T
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    Please show me where I described it as anything but more risk?

    OK, how about this from a few minutes ago:

    Historically, even as recent as the last 5 years, you'd have far less to "risk" [emphasis mine] if you went with a Yaris.


    Not sure what buying with cash has to do with this. Since the Accent costs less up front than the Yaris, why should taking out a loan be a problem with the Accent, given the Accent's real-world advantage in dollar depreciation over 5 years? Also, "keeping it forever" is an exaggeration I think. After five years, you would likely lose more money on depreciation on a Yaris than an Accent. Unless five years is "forever" for you?

    According to the U.S. Government, the average miles driven per car in 2001 (most recent numbers I could find) was 12,041--up just a few hundred miles since 1994. So is 10,000 miles "far less than average"? I wouldn't say that.

    So wouldn't someone who buys a car with a loan, drives 12,000 miles a year, and owns the car for at least five years (the length of many loans these days) be pretty "average"? And please explain to me why a Yaris would cost this kind of person less? We've already established the Accent is likely to have an advantage in lower depreciation expenses. The Accent will be under full warranty for all five years and 60,000 miles that this "average" driver will own the car. The finance charges on the Accent will be lower, due to lower up front price. The lower gas costs for the Yaris may offset some, maybe all of these higher costs. But I don't see how you can infer from this that the costs of owning the Yaris will be lower.

    As for the "many" Toyotas having problems, look back at the article I posted earlier. And I think you need to check back with JD Power, because it was Toyota that finished behind Hyundai in their latest report (at least the one I quoted earlier).
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Again, if you consider that "many" problems, Hyundai has more than the "many" problems Toyota does:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/07/jdpower_iqs/

    If you want to make this a discussion about which manufacturer has more awards (even recent ones), let's go... ;) But I have a hunch you already know how it'll end up.

    And didn't you say not too long ago that you drove LESS than 10k per year? I think that's only fair to describe as far less than average, even if you believe the average to be 12k today, that's a full 17% or more (less) (depending on many miles less than 10k you drive).

    I also thought we settled long ago, that on comparably equipped cars, using TMV, that once you factor in AVERAGE gas use, the Yaris is in fact less expensive...

    Now you want to throw in finance charges? Ok, let's look at the difference in finance charges, on a difference of $1000, over 5 years, on an avearage APR (let's say 10%). Is it more or less than $300???

    And you say 5 years is the average length of the LOAN, but do you know how many are actually paid to term? I do. It's less than 50%. That means, the MAJORITY of car loans never have every payment made... hmmm... falls in line with the point people don't, on average, keep cars very long compared to you... now doesn't it?

    IF you calculate in purchase price, depreciation, finance charges, and gas-mileage (no matter how much of a window you look at) the Yaris either beats, or is within a hundred dollars or so, of the Accent.

    The Yaris is, for most people, a better buy $$$-wise than the Accent.

    T

    PS: With regards to my "risk" quote... I don't think that's even the slightest exaggeration, especially when you look at the reliability history of the ECHO compared to the Accent. The Accent may not be "unreliable", but it is indeed, far less reliable than the ECHO. Sorry
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The JD Power study referred, Hyundai finished ahead of Toyota in the non-luxury nameplate. Backy's right because Yaris is not a Toyota, not Lexus.

    In your point, Comparing Hyundai to Lexus, well, that should be a complement for Hyundai :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Right, and that is the IQS study.

    I am trying to find a good link to the "problems per 100" study, which is more applicable to the statement of Toyota having "many" problems.

    T
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