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Honda Fit Hybrid

drl_2drl_2 Posts: 4
edited May 2 in Honda
I am considering trading in my '98 Prelude for a Fit but wonder if I should wait for the Fit Hybrid that is rumored to be out next year.
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Comments

  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    I don't think I would hold my breath on that one. We don't even know if the new model standard Fit will make it to the states. Though I think it probably will.
  • johnnyvjjohnnyvj Posts: 112
    I don't think the Fit is a good 'fit' for a hybrid, frankly.

    Yeah, the mileage would be insane, but the Fit already gets very good mileage, so you wouldn't be saving THAT much money, even with 3 buck gas.

    Where hybrids really make sense is on gas-guzzlers, like full-size SUVs. Taking your mileage from say an abysmal 11 mpg on up to a semi-abysmal 15 mpg by going hybrid could save you something like $1000 a year, definitely worth it, assuming that the price delta for the hybrid version is at all reasonable.

    But with something like the Fit, going from say 35 mpg to 45+ isn't as special as it seems. You'd save maybe $300 a year, and given that hybrids usually cost AT LEAST $3000-4000 more than equivalently-equipped non-hybrids, you'd spend the entire life of the car making your money back. Not worth it, unless you're a true blue (green?) enviromental type, or just want the carpool lane sticker in the few states that offer one for solo drivers in hybrids.

    Yeah, there are tax breaks, but they aren't so great yet.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,844
    "But with something like the Fit, going from say 35 mpg to 45+ isn't as special as it seems."

    I think they are talking 70+ mpg for a potential hybrid Fit.
  • johnnyvjjohnnyvj Posts: 112
    "I think they are talking 70+ mpg for a potential hybrid Fit."

    That's really unlikely in practice. Hybrids usually improve mileage something on the order of 30-35 percent.

    Maybe if it was diesel hybrid it might have a chance at coming somewhere close to that. Also keep in mind that the EPA estimated mpg for hybrids is WAY off compared to real world numbers (sadly).

    For example, Priuses in practice get something like 45 mpg in mixed city-hwy driving, nothing near the 60/51 mpg city/hwy they're rated at.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,844
    "That's really unlikely in practice."

    I didn't advocate the number, just repeating what I read. Unfortunately I can't remember the URL...
  • Insight weighs 1850-1975 lbs, manual is EPA rated 60/66, CVT 57/56. 0-60mph in about 11 seconds, but low-end acceleration is helped by the electric motor. If it didn't cost much more than a Sport, say $1500, it would be an interesting proposition. Knock off several hundred for the federal tax break, too.

    Here's that URL (they said 50mpg+): http://www.hybridcars.com/honda-fit-hybrid.html
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla MarylandPosts: 701
    That oughtta make hybrid sales take off.

    Toyota has the Prius, but Honda looks like it'll have a hybrid success story with the Fit.

    Most definitely with the price, $15-17,000 for the hybrid fit...

    :surprise:
  • cmkcmk Posts: 59
    Taking your mileage from say an abysmal 11 mpg on up to a semi-abysmal 15 mpg by going hybrid could save you something like $1000 a year, definitely worth it, assuming that the price delta for the hybrid version is at all reasonable.

    But with something like the Fit, going from say 35 mpg to 45+ isn't as special as it seems. You'd save maybe $300 a year,


    My math is failing me. Why would going from 11 to 15 (4 more miles per gallon) be more significant than 35 to 45 (10 more miles per gallon)?
  • cmkcmk Posts: 59
    Do you guys predict that the hybrid model will be styled different?

    I bet it will be marketed differently, and I bet I'll be able to get cruise without goofy spoilers and underbody kits ;)
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    There may be a few styling differences like the Civic Hybrid compared to a conventional Civic. Also remember that the Fit hybrid will be a version of the second generation Fit. While I am guessing the changes will be mainly evolutionary (thanks to the immense success of the current generation), improvements will no doubt be made to the aerodynamics.

    The recent articles keep talking about the Fit using the Insight's hybrid system. While the Fit may use an updated version, I highly doubt it will be the same thing. The Insight uses an old design (introduced in 2000!) that takes up lots of room and weight.
    What I am hoping for is that if it indeed is a version of the Insight's system, maybe there could be a manual transmission version too.
    Doubtful, but we can all dream! :D
  • drl_2drl_2 Posts: 4
    Check out this website for determining how much you will save on gas between two different cars (ex. fit v. hybrid fit):

    Fuel Economy
  • johnnyvjjohnnyvj Posts: 112
    "My math is failing me. Why would going from 11 to 15 (4 more miles per gallon) be more significant than 35 to 45 (10 more miles per gallon)?"

    Because if 'Mr. 11 mpg' was driving the same number of miles as 'Mr. 35 mpg', he'd be spending more than 3 times as much on gas as Mister 35 mpg.

    So, the 30-35% improvement in mileage that a hybrid would bring would benefit Mister 11 mpg's pocketbook much more. It is one of those cases where the mpg numbers at first glance, are deceptive.

    You think "Wow, that econocar hybrid is really saving me so much money, what with a 10 mpg increase!". But the fact is, relatively speaking, you weren't spending all that much on gas compared to Mister 11 mpg and his fuel-gobbling monster SUV. :surprise:

    Think about it awhile, the logic/math will become apparent.
    :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    No way the Fit hybrid will start at $15k. That would mean a $600 "hybrid premium" based on the current base price of an MT Fit, $14,400. $17k is more realistic, maybe $16.5k. It would still be thousands less than a Civic hybrid or a Prius.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    So, the 30-35% improvement in mileage that a hybrid would bring would benefit Mister 11 mpg's pocketbook much more.

    One of our Hosts tried getting us to consider that same subject about a year ago. It is a fact that gaining a few MPG on an SUV can save you more money than 10 MPG on a Civic or Corolla.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    When they list the possible price of the Fit Hybrid they are usually giving it as X dollar hybrid premium plus the base price of the Japanese market car, which is about US$10k.

    I would guess US$17-18k for the US market Fit Hybrid.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,844
    "One of our Hosts tried getting us to consider that same subject about a year ago. It is a fact that gaining a few MPG on an SUV can save you more money than 10 MPG on a Civic or Corolla."

    But let us not forget that the percentages are the same. The smaller car will save more money over the larger car, with the same % increase in both, because the smaller car already saves money on gas. The fact that you save more money in the percentage is irrelevant when one considers the total out-of-pocket for gas between the two cars.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    It is true in a sense.

    Car A:
    $3 gas @ 30mpg = $.10 per mile

    $3 gas @ 40 mpg = $.075 per mile

    saving $.025 per mile.

    Car B:
    $3 gas @ 15mpg = $.20 per mile

    $3 gas @ 25mpg = $.12 per mile

    saving $.08 per mile.

    Car B has greater savings, thus the lower mpg car benefits more from the hybrid in term of fuel savings.

    I would think with a little tweaking (diesel, gearing, more efficient or smaller engine) they could get the Fit up to about 50 mpg without the complications of a hybrid.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    50 mpg (highway) has already been reached by the Jazz 1.2

    It will never make it to North America though.
  • johnnyvjjohnnyvj Posts: 112
    I'll try to make things a bit clearer.

    To reiterate, yes, putting a hybrid on an 11 mpg environment destroyer mega-SUV helps save on fuel costs MUCH more than does going hybrid on an econocar. The math is fairly obvious:

    Mega Enviroment Destroyer SUV: Driven ~ 15000 miles/yr

    w/out hybrid: 11 mpg
    1350 gallons gas/year
    Fuel Price tag: $4,050/yr (assuming $3/gallon gas)

    with hybrid: 15 mpg
    1000 gallons gas/yr
    Fuel Price tag: $3,000 yr

    Savings: $1,050/yr, aka 'a lot' :)

    Very 'Fit'-ting Econocar, driven ~ 15000 miles a year
    w/out hybrid: 35 mpg
    425 gallons gas/year
    Fuel Price tag: $1,275/yr (assuming $3/gallon gas)

    with hybrid: 50 mpg
    300 gallons gas/yr
    Fuel Price tag: $900/yr

    Savings: $375/yr, aka 'nice, but not so much'

    The above was my only point... in terms of saving money and reducing sheer volume of pollutants spewed, going hybrid on a big SUV obviously has more benefit than going hybrid on an econocar.

    That said, I'm sure environmentalists everywhere would be quick to remind us that the greatest positive change would be in going from a non-hybrid big SUV to a hybrid econocar. And they would right. :shades:

    I, however, take the pessimistic view that there are just some folks you'll just never pry out of their bloated oversize SUVs. And most of 'em don't have families of eight. :(
  • travlertravler Posts: 138
    If they make a Hybrid Fit it'll be more than $17K.
  • travlertravler Posts: 138
    If the make it a hybrid withing this body style cycle (about 4 to 5 years) it'll look the same without the gingerbread. The idea is to not add unnecessary weight unless it benefits fuel economy.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    "If the make it a hybrid withing this body style cycle (about 4 to 5 years)"

    All information points to a release of the hybrid first in Japan...that means the next generation, which should be introduced in Spring or Summer 2007. The current body cycle is almost over.

    This would only make sense, as it would be a much better idea to design the car with a hybrid system in mind, rather than just dropping it into such an old design.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    It will never make it to North America though.

    Not enough power to make it over the Alps? ;)
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    Seriously... ;)

    Not enough power to merge into 150 km/h traffic from a short on-ramp or deal with some treacherous quick acceleration city driving either. :P
    ...after spending time in the US, and then returning to Europe, sometimes the speed of the traffic there makes my head spin. :)

    I would be all for the L12A in the US, but I think this issue has already exhausted itself in these forums several times over.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    I remember the old days merging in Los Angeles used to be really hairy. When they went to 55 limits it really helped. Part of me wishes we would get serious about reducing gas demand and reinstitute it. I am sure it will take gas lines before something like that happens.

    I thought Europe had autobahn speedways that make ours look like horse and buggy roads. Do they have long ramps there, or do you just keep your Aygo off them?
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    The typical speed limit (for countries that have posted motorway limits, unlike Germany) is 120 or 130 km/h. How fast people actually go really depends on the country. I have seen all kinds of small underpowered cars drive on the motorways. I've driven in a 3-cylinder 1.0L Suzuki Swift that doesn't have more than 55 HP and it does fine at motorway speeds. I've even seen a few Trabants and Polski Fiats with their 20-30 HP engines manage on these roads. I personally would never do that though! They usually stay about 100-110 km/h.
    Speaking of the Aygo, I was watching a car show that did a review on it and during the test they confidently went on the motorway at realistic speeds without trouble!

    One more thing that is very different though between US and Europe is the way people drive (and general road manners), which makes it safer for smaller cars on the highways.

    Even now driving through Los Angeles can be a hair-raising experience, but I still would trust a lower-powered Fit with better mileage driving on US roads.
    Just my opinion, but I prefer smaller engines with better fuel-efficiency over hybrids. However, if Honda can produce a hybrid Fit with excellent mileage, more power to them!
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,844
    "Not enough power to merge into 150 km/h traffic from a short on-ramp or deal with some treacherous quick acceleration city driving either. "

    Awww, it can't be worse than my 1989 Hyundai Excel. 63 HP, at least I had a manual transmission.

    I think the reason they won't bring a smaller engine to market here is because people would not buy it. Speed and power are of the highest priority to many people.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    Actually I was making that comment in jest ;)

    The L12A is only available with the 5MT, so it makes better use of the power than the CVT option.
  • johnnyvjjohnnyvj Posts: 112
    "One more thing that is very different though between US and Europe is the way people drive (and general road manners), which makes it safer for smaller cars on the highways."

    Amen to that!

    I remember one time in Portugal, I was riding in a cab on the highway and I saw an ambulance and a motorcyclist driving side by side. The ambulance did NOT have its lights on and was not responding to an emergency, by the by.

    Anyways, the ambulance 'just decided' that it wanted to be in the lane the motorcycle was in... only problem is that the motorcyclist was already in the spot the ambulance wanted to be in. Didn't matter... ambulance swerved over, no warning, no blinkers, no nothing.

    The motorcyclist swerved away for dear life, then came back alongside the ambulance and the rider proceeded to start kicking the side of the ambulance from about 1 foot away. At freeway speeds, mind you.

    Eventually, the guy riding shotgun on the ambulance sticks his head out and starts yelling at the motorcyclist, who proceeds to give him the finger. They start yelling at each other and shaking fists at each other, the motorcyclist kicking the side of the amulance all the while. This goes on for several minutes, with the ambulance eventually doing little 'mini' swerves to get the motorcyclist to back off. :surprise:

    One of the funniest (and scariest) things I've seen on the road. Euro drivers are nuts. :D
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