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Honda Fit Hybrid

24

Comments

  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    Maybe that's a Portuguese thing ;)

    I was honestly talking about it being the other way around. Not to say people in Europe don't sometimes try to do several things while driving, but it seems to be the norm in the US...eating, shaving, talking on the phone, etc, etc. I can't even count how many times I've been pushed out of my lane (or off the road!) in the US by people who don't indicate and aren't capable of driving a motor vehicle.

    It varies so much from country to country though...certain countries have reputations for being particularly aggressive or crazy in Europe.
    The countries I have spent the most time driving in Europe (Austria, Germany, Hungary), I find to be safer than the US. They indicate, are more courteous, pay more attention etc. Some people might drive aggressively in Europe, but they also seem a lot more focused on driving. I attribute a lot of it to the manual vs. automatic transmission.

    Being that this is the Fit Hybrid discussion, I won't continue. :blush:
  • crimsonacrimsona Posts: 153
    I find the number of manual cars in Europe is far higher than North America, and driving a stick requires greater concentration on the road. So fewer multitasking bad habits I guess.

    It will be interesting at what premium the Fit Hybrid will be. Probably proportionally the same between the Civic EX and Civic Hybrid
  • sd_driversd_driver Posts: 49
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=115344

    The Fit hybrid will be here in 2008.

    Please Honda, go all out on this: bring a diesel hybrid, a true 70mpg car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    That is good to hear that the Fit hybrid will use the Civic hybrid's powerplant instead of the Insight's. A Fit with the Insight's engine/motor would have been real pokey. The other good news is that it will be a new design and should be here in '08, which is when I will be looking to buy my next new car. :)
  • b4wrnb4wrn Posts: 10
    I hate to put a damper on the Hybrid discussion,most likely in the future the Fed and state governments are going to levy a special tax on these cars because of the better gas mileage. The owners are not paying their fair share of road (gas)taxes, and this also goes for the natural gas burning cars, which right now are paying no taxes to fix the highways. It is being discussed about using a GPS feature on all cars so the governments know exactly how many miles are driven and tax according to these figures. This means those who drive more get taxed more no matter how fuel efficient the cars they drive.

    This has not happened yet but look forward to it. I believe it is a coming thing. I agree with hungarian in that smaller engines getting better mileage is better than a hybrid and much simpler to repair.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    This means those who drive more get taxed more no matter how fuel efficient the cars they drive.

    We discussed this about a year ago. Have not heard how the experiment in Oregon is going. It has to come about as the fleet gets more efficient the highway miles go up and the revenue to repair the roads and bridges goes down.

    See this thread for the discussion.

    gagrice, "Highway funding ideas include taxes on hybrids" #2, 27 Nov 2005 10:01 pm
  • sd_driversd_driver Posts: 49
    The faster we get this current crop of thieves and idiots out of Washington, the better.

    Unbelievable.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    This is not a Federal issue but a state issue. Nebraska did this kind of thing awhile ago, and they didn't target hybrids, but hybrids like the Prius fell into the category. The annual "fee" was $75, or $6.25 a month. Big whoop.
  • cmkcmk Posts: 59
    That's the next-generation Fit, which is due to arrive in 2008.

    Does that mean, for model year '08, or in '08?
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    The next generation Fit should be introduced in Japan during the spring or early summer CY2007. If Honda does a global launch spanning a few months (which would make the most sense), the US would probably get the car in fall of 2007 as a MY2008 vehicle.

    This is all speculation though...
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "The faster we get this current crop of thieves and idiots out of Washington, the better.

    Unbelievable."

    Nope, has nothing to do with Washington or thieves. Europe does not tax by the liter; they have road taxes based on the engine size. They long ago discovered that high MPG cars don't use that much gas.

    The roads have to be maintained, you see, even if your car only uses 9 gallons per 500 miles, as opposed to the SUV at a gadzillion gallons per 500 miles. There is still 500 miles of road maintenance per car. It is true that heavier vehicles cause more road damage, but that simply would mean that perhaps vehicle taxes should be partially based on weight. No free lunches - someone has to maintain the roads, and that someone expects to be paid.

    I suggest you follow the above link to view the original thread.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    "Europe does not tax by the liter"

    Are you referring to liters of fuel, or liters of engine size?
    ...a dumb question, but I don't want to wrongly interpret the sentence. :blush:
  • sd_driversd_driver Posts: 49
    Fine. The gov needs $ to build roads, etc.

    But the idea that you punish people financially for purchasing high-mileage vehicles, when we need to weaning ourselves off poisonous oil dependency, is absolutely ludicrous. And any idiot politician that advocates that should be (and will be) drummed out of office--federal, state, or local.

    A few less tax cuts and millions more hybrids!
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Are you referring to liters of fuel, or liters of engine size? "

    Not a dumb question at all, my bad. Engine size. That way the larger and more expensive cars pay more, while the smaller cars pay less.

    That is one reason that turbo technology is so popular in Europe; more HP on less CC engine size.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Fine. The gov needs $ to build roads, etc.

    But the idea that you punish people financially for purchasing high-mileage vehicles, when we need to weaning ourselves off poisonous oil dependency, is absolutely ludicrous. And any idiot politician that advocates that should be (and will be) drummed out of office--federal, state, or local."

    I think the time will come when the taxes will have to change. It is not a "penalty", it is a "reality". But it will likely be a while before this takes effect. Politicians are rather slow sometimes, and will have to see the highway funds shrinking before they change the tax codes. So breathe easy for now...

    I must point out that the two parts of your post do not match - if the gov needs $$, they have to come from somewhere, and it won't be from gas taxes if everyone is getting high MPG.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    It varies from country to country, but a realistic value for the registration tax on a car like the Jazz 1.2i or 1.4i in Europe is about $1,700.

    On a car with a 3.5 liter engine it is about $14,000! :surprise:

    That might explain why even companies like Mercedes and BMW have a wonderful selection of small, efficient engines in Europe. ;)
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I'm not so sure the Fit will be hybridized. According to a press release dated 5/16, Honda's plan is to bring a new, unique vehicle to fill the sub HCH slot.

    "Introduction in the U.S. and Canada in 2009 of a new, more affordable, dedicated hybrid car."

    Here's the link.

    If this were going to be the hybrid Fit, they wouldn't be calling it a "dedicated" hybrid. With allocations for the US expected to be 100,000 units, I think this hybrid will could replace the HCH and put the kibosh on the HFH.

    It's very possible that this dedicated hybrid will be based on the Fit. (Hence all the rumors about a Fit hybrid.) But it won't be the same car. My guess is it'll be based on the next Fit's structure, but have a more aerodynamic shape.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    It could also be the replacement for the Insight, while the Fit is still hybridized.
  • As a previous owner of a Honda Insight, I don't think the Insight's powerplant put in a Fit will work all that great. Given the Fit is about 600lb heavier, before adding a battery pack, the power output would be pretty weak.

    I can't remember numbers, but the Insight wasn't a slouch when it came to getting off the line, but with 600+lb more weight, it sure would be.

    Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just notthe best arrangement. In the Insight, I found that the motor just didn't assist as much as I'd like. Give it double the torque output, and it would have been very nice. Then the battery capacity wasn't as great either.

    I ended up trading the Insight in on my current car, because I just lived too close to work for it to 'stretch it's legs'. The Insight needed 12-15 miles of good highway driving to regenerate itself.

    No doubt, I was able to get some VERY impressive fuel economy numbers. Once from Austin to Fort Worth and back rated 72mpg. From Austin to San Juan Capistrano (South of LA) and back averaged 68mpg.

    With the US mandating cleaner/better diesel fuel starting this year (or was it next?), I'd be much more interested in a turbodeisel Fit that gets 50+mpg than a hybrid.

    (as an aside, I don't own a Fit yet, I'm in contact with an internet sales manager at a dealer close to where I live. She says it would be about a month before they could get what I want [silver sport MT], and I have to see what they'll give me for my trade in)
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Fukui announced a 4 cyl diesel, plans for a V6 diesel, a new fuel cell vehicle, and plans for a dedicated hybrid - all 2-4 years in the future. But he forgot to mention plans to build a Fit hybrid next year?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Well, he also didn't mention a few other significant bits of news like the upcoming next-gen Accord, due in a year or so. Maybe the release was focused on all-new stuff, like the new plant, new diesels, new hybrid model. They have to save some news for other months. :)
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I don't think the world need Mr Fukui to tell us there will be another Accord. :D

    Seriously, he was focused on new innovations over the next few years. It wasn't a talk about existing product lines. The way the whole thing is put together gives me a double-grande dose of doubt regarding a Fit hybrid.

    Originally, when the rumors first appeared, Fukui all but denied them. Those rumors were based on leaks suggesting a low(er) cost hybrid which was smaller than the Civic. Given Honda's strategy for using existing models to build their hybrids, the Fit was a logical assumption. And, if this dedicated hybrid uses the Fit chassis, it makes the assumption all the more acceptable.

    What Fukui just announced explains how the rumors may have formed as well as why Fukui denied them.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    "Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just not the best arrangement. "

    I am so glad to hear that coming from a previous Insight owner. When I hinted that the physics of the IMA were not sound - any gains may have been due purely to the smaller engines that Honda fitted to that particular Civic and the Insight - over on the HCH board I am sure some members there wanted to skin me alive !
    I think I wrote, half seriously, that the IMA is what you get when a group of mechanical engineers try their hand at electrical engineering.

    In reality, and I speak from personal experience, it is very hard to break a corporate culture heavily based on successes had with another discipline, in this case internal combustion engine design. Successful hybrids are going to need an engine with a significantly different profile.
    If the Insight had been a series hybrid using an induction motor pinioned 10:1 to the differential as per EV1 I am sure that there would have been an entirely different outcome. Without the EV1's 840lbs of battery the Insight would have had no problem with those 8 second to 60mph speed ramps.

    But I digress, I also suspect that Honda made the common mistake of resting its future on just the one design team.

    Someone pointed out that if you drive at 60 for more than 45 minutes then reclamation of energy when braking to a standstill is negated by the losses incurred by hauling the 100lb HV battery around in th first place ! (the penalty estimated in the increase in rolling resistance comes out as 200 watts @ 60mph).
    There is only one justification for regeneration through the recapture of potential and kinetic energy and that is for a pure battery electric vehicle where you are having to lug a gradually depleting battery around with you 24/7 anyway. Then the recapture makes perfect sense to use this already existing structure to absorb that energy. BUT to deliberately install, pay for and accomodate a battery just for this one task is totally ludicrous. I am waiting for the penny to drop on this one for Honda. To be fair the Toyota Prius is also suspect on this count now I think about it.

    I am interested in the Fit because my Echo's lease is due to expire soon and that's why I follow this board, not to discuss hybrid theory. The Advanced Hybrid Eng is where I normally hang out.
    T2
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    ...any gains may have been due purely to the smaller engines that Honda fitted to that particular Civic and the Insight...

    I don't know why members of the HCH board would want to skin you alive for saying that. I thought that was pretty common knowledge. Isn't the primary reason for the electric motor (and battery) to provide a boost to the small gas engine for acceleration, and secondarily to allow the gas engine to shut off at stops, and (for HSD) to allow the car to run at low speeds for short distances on electric power alone? I would think in urban stop-n-go driving there would be some gas savings from the autostop and electric-only driving, since regenerative braking would happen more frequently in that scenario.
  • marcbmarcb Posts: 152
    Last sentence says:

    "The report also says that Honda executives have denied that the subcompact Fit will be available as a hybrid".

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/060519-6.htm

    No problem with me, as long as Honda fits the Fit with a small super efficient turbo diesel that gets 65+mpg. Yes honda, after almost 5 years in this thread I am still waiting for the Fit that fits my efficiency preference. Hey, I'll take a 3+3 FRV diesel too - if it gets 40+mpg.

    marcb
    - ex Prius Owner.
    - getting 45mpg mixed driving on a 12 year old Jetta diesel.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Thanks for the link.

    I think you're going to be waiting a very long time for that Fit Diesel, though. HCCI engines could be available by then.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just notthe best arrangement. In the Insight, I found that the motor just didn't assist as much as I'd like. Give it double the torque output, and it would have been very nice."

    The newest IMA do have double the output, by coincidence. However, I don't know if it is used anywhere except the 2006 HCH.

    The IMA advantage is that Honda could place it in any vehicle at a moment's notice, unlike the HSD, which requires more engineering. The only thing Honda has to do is find a place for the batteries and reprogram the ECU. The drive train is plug and play with the standard Honda transmission components. It is not as efficient a hybrid, but is easier to implement.

    The second advantage it has over HSD is that the IMA will run without a traction battery; the HSD cannot.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    I am totally with you on the idea of a Fit diesel. Maybe Honda could replace the smaller L12A with a 1.4L version of the current diesel used in the Accord, FR-V, CR-V, and Civic for the next generation Jazz in Europe.

    Then they could ship a few to North America? ;)
    60+ mpg on the highway would not be out of the question.

    By the way, the FR-V diesel consumes 5.3L/100km in extra urban (highway) driving so that will fit your requirement of 40+mpg. Actually, combined fuel consumption is 6.3L/100km (~37 mpg), which is quite good for a 1600kg MPV!
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Can't. The 2.2L won't squeeze between the suspension parts in the Fit platform.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Posts: 678
    Maybe that's why I said they should use a smaller version of the current engine.

    Re-read my original post if you have any questions.
This discussion has been closed.