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2007 3-Series



  • I read this test too and came away somewhat scratching my balding head. . . .

    The BMW and Mercedes were the "go fast" versions of their makers. Or perhaps, better said, the "special go fast" versions. The Audi was not the RS version, which -- according to people who write for a LIVING rather than what we do for fun -- is the counter to the AMG and M. The upcoming, RS6 -- if one manifests -- would be the one to compare to the then current AMG and M.

    On the other hand, the surprise was the S6 coming in second. For pity's sake this is a car that hasn't even undergone any of the "promised" reduction in front end weight.

    Audis regardless of one's opinions are "nose heavy." BMW's ditto your opinion are almost always nearly perfectly balanced.

    The S6 WAS more porky and it has a "fat nose" (as opposed to a fat rear, don't you know) yet it "kept up with" a far superior M5 (in terms of balance.)

    I can only assume the ESP in the S6, if it is typical Audi, cannot be fully disengaged either.

    There was, in this test, somewhat of a warning, one could conclude that a better balanced, RS6 might even topple the AMG (at least for it's "15 minutes of fame" until the next M5 and/or AMG came out which would then dethrone the Audi for 15 minutes until the next gen [C7,C8 etc] RS6 came out and once again dethroned the then champeen -- rinse, lather, repeat, etc.)

    BTW, my previous comments pertaining to advantages were focussed on AWD vs RWD (and more broadly 2WD) -- not about ESP, etc. For the street, I still want that 19 year old young woman and my late 70's in-laws to have AWD cars with all the electronic assists Hans and Franz can dream up.

    Allowing you to fully turn them off on the track is ALSO something I want. :surprise:

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! :shades:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Practically anyone could buy an IFR certified Cessna for $25K. It's the cost of insurance, pilot training, maintenance, and mooring that keeps Tom, Dick, and Jane out of the pilot seat - and likely always will.

    I remember a field trip to the computer science lab at Concordia University when I was in high school. We were able to produce a stack of punch cards and put them in the receptacle. 10 minutes later, I had a 4' tall picture of Snoopy printed on perforated paper!

    Kids may not know what DOS is, but at least nobody gets injured when a blue screen appears...
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353
    "Allowing you to fully turn them off on the track is ALSO something I want."

    My sentiments exactly! In other words, train the "nannies" to stay home while you go to the track and learn and have some fun.

    Have a Safe, Healthy and Happy Holidays (read, ESP, HP, 2WD/6M/M or AMG)

  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    Go for the SRT8! Even though resale is lower, I believe bang-for-the buck is way up there.

    I'm really having a tough time deciding which way to go. I've found a nice 2001 CPO M5 as well as a 2006 Charger SRT-8 with less than 2K miles. I consider the M5 to be almost a four door 911(and of course I prefer the six speed manual), while the Dodge is just completely crazy. If I can grab the Dodge for a few grand less than the M5, I might just do it. The one thing I really don't like about the Dodge is its outward visibility- or lack thereof. I feel like I'm driving a chopped and channeled 32 Ford coupe- though I suppose that is part of the appeal. I got my drivers license just as the horsepower wars of the sixties were winding down, so finally owning a full-tilt V8 musclecar would be a bit of a nostalgia trip- the Hemi King of the Street that I missed the first time around. Overall the Charger isn't that much bigger than the E60 M5 and it may prove cheaper to maintain as well. We'll see...
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353
    I agree...the Dodge is great for the raw power...I'd like to get your feedback if you decide to with it. It would be interesting for you to rate that ride vs. others you have experienced and I love to see the guy's face with WRX if you found him again with the Dodge in your hands!

    Have fun either way, 'cause your alternate is a great choice also.

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353
    No, the fist dolt who'd light up by the oxygen would wind up looking like Freddie Kruger!

    Look on the bright can never stop progress, no matter what form it takes, you just have to adapt! I would hate to go backwards! I don't know much technically but when the first blanket of snow hit the mid west this year, I heard many deaths on the road resulted.

    I just appreciate all the help I can get. If that means more training, I look forward to it. But as new systems get perfected, I am sure we can find a way to get the fun factor enhanced along with the techno-ride. Don't you think night vision is cool??

    Have a great Holiday season!

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,238
    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

    . . . and to you as well, my verbose & thought-provoking colleague (hope I'm not being overly presumptuous here).
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353
    Here's wishing all of the members and hosts a Healthy, Happy and Safe Holidays!

    Thanks for all of your help.

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Look on the bright can never stop progress, no matter what form it takes, you just have to adapt!

    Well, I’ll judge progress myself and go kicking and screaming into the illusion of progress if there are no alternatives. The only new BMW I would buy today is a 3-series coupe without iDrive but there’s no place for it in the scheme of my stable right now. The upcoming M3 has me interested also. It would be nice to know I can replace my E39 530i with another BMW but it only has 26K miles so I’m sticking with it for quite some time, I think.

    Porsche “progressed” and I don’t like it either. I was considering taking advantage of year-end bargaining power and treating myself to a new 911, replacing my 986 Boxster S, but I finally drove a couple of setups a few weeks ago and was glad to get back into my Boxster. Porsche is right in there with the BS. 911s just aren’t the same anymore in my opinion. They’ve become spongy, numb, light on the steering and more detached from the feel of the road compared their predecessors. At least that’s the way I see it with the C2 and C2S. Maybe the higher ticket Porsches are different but I am not going that deep into the pocket book. I am now considering a 993 or 996 including the Turbo versions, a 996 GT3, 987, E39 M5 and C6 Z06, the latter of which is a longshot. I am considering the Z06 for quite the same reason that Div2 is considering the SRT8. I witnessed a lot of classmates have hot cars bought for them by their daddies back in the late 60s while I drooled. However, I just have this feeling if I went with the Vette I would tire of it very quickly because handling, not power, is my first preference, not to mention that perhaps nothing can bring back the splendor in the grass. So Div2, I would take this into consideration also. I think the M5 has more staying power due to its all-around qualities but good luck with whatever you choose. After all, we don’t have to be married to these vehicles, just throw money at them.

    In any event, I am a fan of genuine progress but I don’t like the nonsense that is pawned off as progress. Change for the sake of change is very popular right now. It always was but it seems more pronounced and has been taken to ridiculous levels of late. Accordingly, I am now very willing to spend a decent chunk to experience the older, classic stuff that in many ways peaked, at least with regard to my preferences, and that I was not able to afford years ago. When you think about it, a car like the E39 M5 is just tough to beat. At times I think perhaps I am just getting old but am encouraged by many others who feel the same way. Lastly, I refuse to drink the kool aid that is doled out by manufacturers and I feel confident that I am able to judge it for what it is.

    Anyway, Happy Holidays to all indeed!
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353

    I was in the same boat when the rich kids got the hot cars back then. When I test drove the 300C srt8, I was reminded of the hole shot power of a real engine. The difference was at the end of the straight, you knew the car had a suspension, unlike the prehistoric underpinnings of yore. The C6 Z06 would be my ultimate choice as well, since it DOES retain value, best in the US.

    Shipo is looking at the debut of the '09 Challenger with the new Hemi. That should kick some life into the party. Hopefully, the Camaro return will bring some hope for guys like us to really have more choices.

    The '09 M3 will definitely be more desirable at the end of the day because the focus has been there with BMW much longer the the SRT team at DC and probably will be more careful not to "progress" to far from the preferences of the loyal car guys that have supported them.

    Anyway, I wholeheartedly appreciate your point of view and hope there will always be choices for those that want what they want, damn the progress.

    Best Regards,
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,401
    I actually saw a Charger SRT-8 Yesterday on my way home from work. It is definitely a bad mama jama. I love the hood scoop and aggressive styling. I'm sure you'll get the same stupid grin every time you mash the throttle and hear that 6.1 L HEMI V8 roar. But it's an automatic! And what is the story with this Charger with less than 2K miles? Is it a demo? Did somebody buy it and return it?

    How many miles are on the E39 M5 you're looking at?

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Well said Designman.

    The E30 or 993 epitomize what a sports car should drive like.

    The Miata, RX-8, S2000, Elise/Exige, and even the STi and Evo IX give me hope that there will always be undiluted new cars.

    BTW, I drove the C6 (non-Z06) recently and liked it very much. Yeah, it's got power, but it also handles - and with rigid body structure and a nice, quality feeling and designed cockpit.
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    I think the M5 has more staying power due to its all-around qualities but good luck with whatever you choose. After all, we don’t have to be married to these vehicles, just throw money at them.

    I'm really not in any hurry, but I can pick the M5 up for a really good price -ditto for the Charger- so I really will have to make a decision in the next few days. One thing that does concern me is the level of dealer support for the Dodge; I'm sure the service department will just laugh and scratch if I request a loaner. And who knows what they would do with the warranty if they found out(GASP!) I drove it on the track. Then there's the fact that I've been hard-wired into the BMW community for so long that I can easily find help with any problems I might have with the M5. I'd have to start from scratch with the Charger.
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    But it's an automatic!

    That engine has so much torque that I don't miss a stick(heresy, I know ;) ).

    And what is the story with this Charger with less than 2K miles? Is it a demo?

    Some well-heeled good ol' boy bought it and then decided he missed his pickup truck- so he turned around and traded it back in on a new Ram. I think he must have been dropped on his head as well...

    How many miles are on the E39 M5 you're looking at?

    @52K. The S62 V8 appears to be nearly bulletproof. The only red flag involves some engines that develop problem with carbon accumulating in the secondary air injection passages in the heads. Eventually the carbon accumulation blocks the passages and trips the CEL. Since the air injection system only functions at start-up(in order to light the catalysts off quickly for emissions purposes) the problem has no effect on driveability or vehicle performance. BMW's fix involves removing the heads and cleaning them(BIG $$$- dealers charge $7K or more to perform the procedure). I've heard through back channels that at least one aftermarket tuner has developed a $600 "Off Road Use Only" ECU reflash that causes the on-board diagnostics to ignore the secondary air injection system and thus the CEL stays off. That gives the savvy E39 M5 buyer an advantage over the non-gearheads who may want to unload such a car-or hesitate from buying one-because of the problem.
  • Shipo and others,

    Take a look at this track test done by a Greek car magazine:

    ON A TRACK, DRIVEN BY PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS, the 335i beats the M3 and barely trails the SMG M3. Clearly the 335i can turn, slalom and brake... And oh yeah, this was the Automatic version of the 335i.

    Also, one of the tuners on that board has a plug-in product that is dyno tested to produce 400HP and 400+ ftlbs torque - and it's sold for $1300. Search around, you'll see the before/after dyno tests. And it doesn't change the shape of the curve at all - simply takes each point and moves it up on the graph. Take the base price of a 335i, tack on $1300 and you've got a 2009 M3

    But of course, you don't have the cool/bragging/posturing factor of the M3, if that's important to you.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, something doesn't smell right about this. I'll wait for some more credible tests before I'm willing to believe it.

    Best Regards,
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I guess it depends on what your definition of "credible" is.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Maybe I should have said something like corroboration, as in other tests showing the same result. ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,405
    You also have to be careful with published dyno results. It is SOOOOO easy to cheat on a dyno and influence the results. And of course, the engineering had better not be reckless.


  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353
    I'll take our previous go-around re: 335 vs. M3. Close but no cigar.

    As far as modified engine/computer/drivetrain, you're either racing or you're wasting! I'll never modify a stock car designed for a certain specification. All guarantees/warranty are gone (unless certain Dinan mods) which are certainly not designed for bang-for-the buck crowd.

    My view is have a good daily driver and a dedicated track car if you want to make it a true hobby. So, M, Quattro, Type S, CTS-V, SRT-4,6,8,10, C-6, should be good enough for the street with no mods.

This discussion has been closed.