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Hybrid Prius that gets over 100 Miles per Gallon

24

Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Jesse (a friend of mine with a Classic Prius) is having surpassed 243,000 miles with the original still.

    That is pretty darn good. Longer than I would have bet on them.
  • eaaeaa Posts: 30
    NiMH have been run to over 300,000 miles. The new lithium should last as long.

    The new Tesla pure electric EV that was just released July 20,2006 uses lithium and they say 100,000 miles is expected.

    These are not your old lead acid 100 year old technology !
  • ideleidele Posts: 200
    The Tesla car is very interesting but it should be pointed out that the battery pack consists of thousands of off-the-shelf lithium-ion batteries used for portable electronic devices and weighs about 1000 pounds.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Good point. I think some thought this car was a break through on battery technology. No one has a large size Li-ion battery that is safe to use where any heat is involved. From the price of the car it looks like battery pricing is still very high.
  • ideleidele Posts: 200
    I thank you for starting the posts on this topic. The cost of fossil fuels in money and pollution has led to many startups for new automotive powerplants. Tesla is an example: it was funded by Silicon Valley venture capital. There are other ventures aimed at big lithium-ion batteries which can get around their operating tempurature limitations. Ultimately one wants large capacitors instead of batteries. There is big money at work on this. For example, a joint venture of Dupont in the USA and Teijin in Japan for large capacitors. And there's the important and promising research on capacitors at academic institutions such as MIT.
  • ideleidele Posts: 200
    When Jim Press announced that Toyota was working on plug-in hybrids it was treated as something new. Actually in 2005 the Toyota Dream House (mine too) that was exhibited for 6 months at that time had a complete Prius plug-in setup. Particularly interesting to me, since I get power from a rural electric coop which has its downtimes, is the use of the Prius to supply electricity to the house if needed. I refer you to this website:
    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/09/toyota_dream_ho.php
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    It was "treated as new" because no one at Toyota Corporate had ever announced OFFICIALLY that Toyota was looking into PEVs as an item they would sell as a production car.

    This was the first time.
  • i am about to purchase a 2006 prius,and would like to know if there is a after market charger i could use in my garage at a reasonable price. also would charging the batteries hurt it? and would i have to add additional batteries to attain some results and still be cost efficient-mike please respond-thank you michaeltneville@comcast.net
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    It would void your warranty, and the Prius, and other Hybrids, are not made to be "topped' off, but rather keep the battery at about 70-75%. This is to give head room for the regenerative breaking system to charge while driving, etc.

    To keep it at 100% would actually shorten the battery life and impair the system, I believe.
  • The beauty of the Prius and other Hybrid systems is that they automatically recharge themselves.

    No plug-in is needed!

    MidCow
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Yes!

    The best of both for the real world. :)
  • Yes, there is a beauty with the Prius and other Hybrid systems in that they automatically recharge themselves.

    But true beauty is a Prius or hybird where you have an 'optional' ability to plug in and get a 100 mile boost. So for your commuter workweek, you can average 100 miles per gallon. You still don't have to plug in -- but if you want to get a boost, you could average 100 mpg for those everyday trips.
  • battpwrbattpwr Posts: 1
    How can you get 100mpg except for coasting?
    Would be great to hear. I have had my 2006 Prius for about 2 months now and am getting 47.5 mpg. Thanks for the info. I'm in Alaska also.
  • timinalaska,

    You must be an optimist looking through rose colored glasses. Electric cost to plug-in and charge a battery is not free. You have to equate the cost to equvalent gallons of gas and in doing so recalculate you effective mileage. Remember no energy conversion is 100% efficient coal/hydro > electric> transformers for distribution > battery > mechanical car; there is alway loss!. I surmise you might be suprised to find that if you did have and elctric pulg-in your effective gas mileage would probably go down ; not up.

    YEMMV E=electric

    MidCow
  • For reference, please go to www.calcars.org. In order to get 100 mpg, you must install an after-market conversion where additional batteries that essentially fuel the car for the first 100 miles of a trip are installed.

    The 100 mpg does not hold true for the standard prius, it's for the optional plug-in hybrids, or PHEV. You can convert the standart Prius into a PHEV. And of course there is always loss with energy, but for an overnight charge with the conversion, the electricity will cost you about $1.00. Compare that to an average of $3.00 a gallon for gasoline across the U.S. And while coal plants are still dirty, in California, most of California's energy does not come from coal and it's much cleaner. Unfortunately, coal still account for 60 % of our fuel for electricity for the rest of the U.S.

    But is it easier to clean up millions of dirty cars, or is it better to clean up a relatively small number of coal plants. And as our sources for electricity become cleaner, the optional plug in hybrid makes even more sense.

    Please call Toyota and other hybrid makers to encourage them to make these cars. The cars are available today, but it's engineers on their own that are converting these cars at a high cost. If Toyota can do this in large scale, you could have a hybrid that gets a 100 miles per gallon boost from an overnight charge that costs less than a $1.00. :cry:
  • Okay I read you article. It uses old electric prices of 9 cents per kwh. They are double and triple that now. The poultion does not take into account the electric generation. The addtional batteries add to the weight of the car and considerable slow it down and also reduce effective mpg. The PHEV (Plug-In Hybrids what the aritcle says, I think it is Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicles) costs $3-5 more than a hybrid which cost $3-5k more than a conventional ICE.

    Okay thats only a couple of major flaws:

    (1) electric cost is way off
    (2) electric generation not cinsidered in polution
    (3) battery weight increase not compensated for
    (4) 3-5K $ additonal cost not considered.

    Will a PHEV fly, yes it will 3-5% of the current hybrid buyers will buy a PHEV and hybrid buyers account for 3-5% of all new car sales.

    So PHEV will account for .09-.25% of all new car sales and will save the world from polution!

    And where or where does it say 100 mile per gallon boost for $1.00 (which by the way is priced incorrectly) ? 100 miles per gallon by not counting the electric charge or the equivalent cost to generate the eletricity. Even using their figures it cost $0.81 to go 30 miles and a gas cost of $3.00 per gallon at noraml Prius of 45 mpg. To figure out that you are getting 100 mpg actually means the following

    45 mpg at $3.00 = $0.0667 per gallons use x gallons

    Electric cost 0.81/30 = $0.027 per gallon electric cost
    use y gallons

    100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon = $0.03

    $0.0667*x + $0.027*y = $0.03

    using Y as the dependent and solving

    .027y = -.0667x+.03

    y= ( -.0667x )/.027 + .03/.027

    y =-2.47X + 1.11

    The y intercept is when x= 0.44

    In order to be real numbers x has to be less than 0.44 whch means that in order to achieve 100 mpg most of the power and energy has to come from the battery charge all of the time 56%. Hey i can get 99 mpg in my Accord V6 coasting to a stop in 6th gear!


    I think my windmill perpetual motion car will do better!

    MidCow

    P.S. I am going to solve my gas problems by winning the Shell gasoline giveaway by winning the lifetime gasoline supply.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    "Okay I read you article. It uses old electric prices of 9 cents per kwh. They are double and triple that now."

    Southern California Edison, it is .37 per KWH, for the basic allocation, baseline. It can go higher, depending on useage, and time of day. :sick:
  • Good post Midcow,

    I had a little trouble following the numbers afterwards
    Let's try my math on your figures.

    " Gas mileage assuming 45 mpg at $3.00/gal =6.67cents/mile
    Electric cost 0.81/30 = 2.7cents/mile

    And now for
    "Mathematics - the most overrated Science"

    To get 100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon
    Is another way of saying 300 cents will get us 100 miles

    Let z be the number of miles driven on gas :-
    We will need to drive z miles @ 6.67c/mile
    And 100-z miles on battery @2.7cents/mile

    Then 300 = z miles at 6.67cents + (100-z miles)at 2.7 cents

    Thus 300 = z(6.67-2.7) + 270
    Thence 300-270 = z (3.97)
    Whence 30/3.97 = z
    Hence z = 7.55667506297229219143576826196474
    Ergo you would need to drive 7.5miles on gas and 92.5miles on the battery which is basically what you are saying Midcow

    The 7.5 miles would not warm up your engine according to gagrice so your engine gas mileage would be down by 30% meaning you would need even more miles on the battery to make 100mpg.
    And [5] Loss of interest on your $3-5k Phev premium had it been invested instead.
    T2
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Let's carry it on a bit further. According to reports on this illusive Prius plug-in, it has a battery only range of 30 miles. At that point you are running on gas alone. How long does it take the ICE to charge those batteries back up to capacity? I think it all comes from creative thinking and reporting. I was able to get 100 MPG for short runs with my VW TDI. Then came the going up hill section of the highway. I think that it was demonstrated that a stock Prius if set up right and given the right conditions could get 100 MPG. That was hardly your daily commute.

    One last point. Will the extra batteries in this possible PHEV have enough power to carry the Prius to 70 MPH cruising speed without calling on the ICE? If not, it is NOT going to be worth much to most commuters.
  • First I'll answer one of the querys that Gagrice brought up in respect to recharging batteries from the ICE. Since the NiMH battery is rated 6.5 AmpHours and MG1 is allowed to perform recharging @ 50 amps then 6.5/50hrs or 7.8minutes is what you're looking for. Of course much less in practice because the battery is not allowed to deplete the SOC beyond 20%. And when charging by ICE cannot go above 80% SOC. Someone else can supply more exact figures. Add-on cells, as proposed here, would be also be subject to the same constraints. In fact the Prius may ignore their presence entirely since it is counting and tracking coulombs flowing in and out and not the battery voltage droop on load (which would be an indication towards end of charge). The point being that the ECU must be aware by altering some parameter in the program. Has anyone that capability outside Toyota ?

    Second in regard to the idea of add-on batteries see my post #118 in "Advanced Hybrid Engineering" board, it's here on Edmunds.

    Third there is no sensible cost effective way to get a 1500cc ICE to move much above 55mpg (in summer temperatures) by novice drivers. That includes all those who don't much care what's going on under the hood. And I'm fine with that.

    It is obvious to me that a smaller engine is the answer, perhaps 600cc with a turbocharger and the ECU will limit RPMs to 5000 so that the Hybrid Synergy software is still operable. Perhaps a ten year old vehicle with a blown engine would be a viable candidate. The 2009's will be out by then and we may be seeing something from Toyota in this direction. Toyota takes small steps. Perhaps they will reduce cylinders and speedup engines. Right now they are probably collecting data regarding long term engine wear (or lack of it) to make those decisions. I don't see them reaching their cost reduction goals unless they make that kind of decision.


    T2
This discussion has been closed.