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Hybrid Prius that gets over 100 Miles per Gallon

2

Comments

  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Yes!

    The best of both for the real world. :)
  • Yes, there is a beauty with the Prius and other Hybrid systems in that they automatically recharge themselves.

    But true beauty is a Prius or hybird where you have an 'optional' ability to plug in and get a 100 mile boost. So for your commuter workweek, you can average 100 miles per gallon. You still don't have to plug in -- but if you want to get a boost, you could average 100 mpg for those everyday trips.
  • battpwrbattpwr Posts: 1
    How can you get 100mpg except for coasting?
    Would be great to hear. I have had my 2006 Prius for about 2 months now and am getting 47.5 mpg. Thanks for the info. I'm in Alaska also.
  • timinalaska,

    You must be an optimist looking through rose colored glasses. Electric cost to plug-in and charge a battery is not free. You have to equate the cost to equvalent gallons of gas and in doing so recalculate you effective mileage. Remember no energy conversion is 100% efficient coal/hydro > electric> transformers for distribution > battery > mechanical car; there is alway loss!. I surmise you might be suprised to find that if you did have and elctric pulg-in your effective gas mileage would probably go down ; not up.

    YEMMV E=electric

    MidCow
  • For reference, please go to www.calcars.org. In order to get 100 mpg, you must install an after-market conversion where additional batteries that essentially fuel the car for the first 100 miles of a trip are installed.

    The 100 mpg does not hold true for the standard prius, it's for the optional plug-in hybrids, or PHEV. You can convert the standart Prius into a PHEV. And of course there is always loss with energy, but for an overnight charge with the conversion, the electricity will cost you about $1.00. Compare that to an average of $3.00 a gallon for gasoline across the U.S. And while coal plants are still dirty, in California, most of California's energy does not come from coal and it's much cleaner. Unfortunately, coal still account for 60 % of our fuel for electricity for the rest of the U.S.

    But is it easier to clean up millions of dirty cars, or is it better to clean up a relatively small number of coal plants. And as our sources for electricity become cleaner, the optional plug in hybrid makes even more sense.

    Please call Toyota and other hybrid makers to encourage them to make these cars. The cars are available today, but it's engineers on their own that are converting these cars at a high cost. If Toyota can do this in large scale, you could have a hybrid that gets a 100 miles per gallon boost from an overnight charge that costs less than a $1.00. :cry:
  • Okay I read you article. It uses old electric prices of 9 cents per kwh. They are double and triple that now. The poultion does not take into account the electric generation. The addtional batteries add to the weight of the car and considerable slow it down and also reduce effective mpg. The PHEV (Plug-In Hybrids what the aritcle says, I think it is Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicles) costs $3-5 more than a hybrid which cost $3-5k more than a conventional ICE.

    Okay thats only a couple of major flaws:

    (1) electric cost is way off
    (2) electric generation not cinsidered in polution
    (3) battery weight increase not compensated for
    (4) 3-5K $ additonal cost not considered.

    Will a PHEV fly, yes it will 3-5% of the current hybrid buyers will buy a PHEV and hybrid buyers account for 3-5% of all new car sales.

    So PHEV will account for .09-.25% of all new car sales and will save the world from polution!

    And where or where does it say 100 mile per gallon boost for $1.00 (which by the way is priced incorrectly) ? 100 miles per gallon by not counting the electric charge or the equivalent cost to generate the eletricity. Even using their figures it cost $0.81 to go 30 miles and a gas cost of $3.00 per gallon at noraml Prius of 45 mpg. To figure out that you are getting 100 mpg actually means the following

    45 mpg at $3.00 = $0.0667 per gallons use x gallons

    Electric cost 0.81/30 = $0.027 per gallon electric cost
    use y gallons

    100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon = $0.03

    $0.0667*x + $0.027*y = $0.03

    using Y as the dependent and solving

    .027y = -.0667x+.03

    y= ( -.0667x )/.027 + .03/.027

    y =-2.47X + 1.11

    The y intercept is when x= 0.44

    In order to be real numbers x has to be less than 0.44 whch means that in order to achieve 100 mpg most of the power and energy has to come from the battery charge all of the time 56%. Hey i can get 99 mpg in my Accord V6 coasting to a stop in 6th gear!


    I think my windmill perpetual motion car will do better!

    MidCow

    P.S. I am going to solve my gas problems by winning the Shell gasoline giveaway by winning the lifetime gasoline supply.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    "Okay I read you article. It uses old electric prices of 9 cents per kwh. They are double and triple that now."

    Southern California Edison, it is .37 per KWH, for the basic allocation, baseline. It can go higher, depending on useage, and time of day. :sick:
  • Good post Midcow,

    I had a little trouble following the numbers afterwards
    Let's try my math on your figures.

    " Gas mileage assuming 45 mpg at $3.00/gal =6.67cents/mile
    Electric cost 0.81/30 = 2.7cents/mile

    And now for
    "Mathematics - the most overrated Science"

    To get 100 miles/gallon at effective $3.00 gallon
    Is another way of saying 300 cents will get us 100 miles

    Let z be the number of miles driven on gas :-
    We will need to drive z miles @ 6.67c/mile
    And 100-z miles on battery @2.7cents/mile

    Then 300 = z miles at 6.67cents + (100-z miles)at 2.7 cents

    Thus 300 = z(6.67-2.7) + 270
    Thence 300-270 = z (3.97)
    Whence 30/3.97 = z
    Hence z = 7.55667506297229219143576826196474
    Ergo you would need to drive 7.5miles on gas and 92.5miles on the battery which is basically what you are saying Midcow

    The 7.5 miles would not warm up your engine according to gagrice so your engine gas mileage would be down by 30% meaning you would need even more miles on the battery to make 100mpg.
    And [5] Loss of interest on your $3-5k Phev premium had it been invested instead.
    T2
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Let's carry it on a bit further. According to reports on this illusive Prius plug-in, it has a battery only range of 30 miles. At that point you are running on gas alone. How long does it take the ICE to charge those batteries back up to capacity? I think it all comes from creative thinking and reporting. I was able to get 100 MPG for short runs with my VW TDI. Then came the going up hill section of the highway. I think that it was demonstrated that a stock Prius if set up right and given the right conditions could get 100 MPG. That was hardly your daily commute.

    One last point. Will the extra batteries in this possible PHEV have enough power to carry the Prius to 70 MPH cruising speed without calling on the ICE? If not, it is NOT going to be worth much to most commuters.
  • First I'll answer one of the querys that Gagrice brought up in respect to recharging batteries from the ICE. Since the NiMH battery is rated 6.5 AmpHours and MG1 is allowed to perform recharging @ 50 amps then 6.5/50hrs or 7.8minutes is what you're looking for. Of course much less in practice because the battery is not allowed to deplete the SOC beyond 20%. And when charging by ICE cannot go above 80% SOC. Someone else can supply more exact figures. Add-on cells, as proposed here, would be also be subject to the same constraints. In fact the Prius may ignore their presence entirely since it is counting and tracking coulombs flowing in and out and not the battery voltage droop on load (which would be an indication towards end of charge). The point being that the ECU must be aware by altering some parameter in the program. Has anyone that capability outside Toyota ?

    Second in regard to the idea of add-on batteries see my post #118 in "Advanced Hybrid Engineering" board, it's here on Edmunds.

    Third there is no sensible cost effective way to get a 1500cc ICE to move much above 55mpg (in summer temperatures) by novice drivers. That includes all those who don't much care what's going on under the hood. And I'm fine with that.

    It is obvious to me that a smaller engine is the answer, perhaps 600cc with a turbocharger and the ECU will limit RPMs to 5000 so that the Hybrid Synergy software is still operable. Perhaps a ten year old vehicle with a blown engine would be a viable candidate. The 2009's will be out by then and we may be seeing something from Toyota in this direction. Toyota takes small steps. Perhaps they will reduce cylinders and speedup engines. Right now they are probably collecting data regarding long term engine wear (or lack of it) to make those decisions. I don't see them reaching their cost reduction goals unless they make that kind of decision.


    T2
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Also how much is it going to cost ?????

    Rocky
  • Does the Prius have a timing belt or chain? Ive heard that the battery cells last far longer than the 100k that Toyota says. So what sort of major maintenance is required at 100K. Belts? Hoses? Half-Shafts?

    If I get one I plan on 'driving it to the moon', (putting between 250K to 300k miles on it).
  • "prices going up, up, up."

    In general inflation has been going up and up. MSRP for a new Prius is around 22,175. Thats about 1,000 or 2,000 then when it first came out. Seem to be in line with inflation for other autos.

    "The only reason I can see for the lighter batteries is less capacity."

    less capacity...The reason is for less weight or more capacity is the reson for lighter batteries.

    "I have not seen any credible evidence that the price of batteries for the hybrids have come down at all since their introduction."

    callign toyota dealerships through out the years there was been a remarketable delcine in batery costs. At first the cost wasd about 8-10 grand to replace the batteries, now its about 3-4 grand to replace the battery.

    "There may have been some subtle advances."

    those subtle advances have increase battery performance by 20% sinse they days of the EV 2. many of those subtle advances have led to lighter batteries.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    I am not sure of your research on battery costs. I can tell you that the last I read a traction battery for a 2001 Prius cost $5000 to replace. It would not surprise me to see a difference of $2k to $5k difference between dealers. I priced a gas gauge sensing computer for our Lexus and was Quoted prices from $253 to $556. Until I see a legitimate study where any battery technology cost is going down, I have only seen prices going up. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples as Toyota is not putting the same battery packs in all their hybrids.

    CalCars has promised a PHEV Prius conversion for some time. Is it available to the consumer as of today? If so what is the cost?
  • I am not sure of your research on battery costs. I can tell you that the last I read a traction battery for a 2001 Prius cost $5000 to replace. It would not surprise me to see a difference of $2k to $5k difference between dealers. I priced a gas gauge sensing computer for our Lexus and was Quoted prices from $253 to $556. Until I see a legitimate study where any battery technology cost is going down, I have only seen prices going up. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples as Toyota is not putting the same battery packs in all their hybrids.

    CalCars has promised a PHEV Prius conversion for some time. Is it available to the consumer as of today? If so what is the cost?

    Im not talking about Calcars. I was talking about replacing the orginal manufacurer equipment. I priced it about 3-5 grand. What does a gas sensing guage computer have to to battery costs? Which have been going down. Lithiun Ion battery tech is getting very old. The cost to replace the Lithium Ion battery is dropping. The new nanotechnology batteries which are very expensive. like all technology , as it matures, it become cheaper. esp when production kicks in. It costs to push the technology envelope. its cheap to rehash the some ol technology. Its cheap for auto companies to make a new full size p-u. Its expensive to make a hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    If you priced the Prius battery at $3k-$5k you are about on the money. They have not come down in the last 7 years. Same NiMH battery. NiMH and Li-Ion batteries for laptops have steadily gone up in price. The electronics have come down. Not the batteries. I used a Lexus part to show how dealers price parts differently. I mentioned CalCars because they are the leading proponent of PHEV, which this thread is about. Last I heard the Li-Ion package to make a PHEV out of a Prius was $10k-$12k. Has that price come down. They have used that price point for at least 3 years. Li-Ion technology may be old. It is still not ready for automotive prime time. It may never be. They have two very bad characteristics. They can combust if over charged and they have a relatively short lifespan. These are big obstacles to the 100 MPG hybrid.
  • Thats amazing since our 2007 Prius gets a dismal 32 mpg. Toyota says nothing is wrong with it either. Sorry I am now jaded about mileage claims, so I would believe it when I see 100 mpg.

    I would be happy to just get the mileage stated by the factory or even 3/4 of it, certainly I expect to get more than half the specified mileage!
  • "If you priced the Prius battery at $3k-$5k you are about on the money. They have not come down in the last 7 years."

    seven years ago people were stating batteries were costing 8 grand to 10 grand to replace. I was born at night,..but not last night.

    According to Toyota, the cost to replace the battery is $3,000 and lets throw in another 2,000 for labor...so 5 grand. and lets throw in another grand, so one can feel cheated and taken advantaged of by the stealership. Thats a new Prius battery and 3,000 for labor to install a battery.

    http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2006/fall/battery.html

    So if the price for a battery significantly differs from Toyota's pice, one should call Toyota and tell em. Toyota designed the Prius to have easy to replace parts. They realized that auto mechanics are not eletrical engineers and the prius was design with that in mind.

    " They have two very bad characteristics. They can combust if over charged and they have a relatively short lifespan. These are big obstacles to the 100 MPG hybrid."

    Many batteries will explode if overcharged. A plain jane car battery will combust if its jumped the wrong way. Im sure the people at calcars have some type of state of charge computer built into their system. I know the Prius does have a state of charge computer in to promote battery life and overcrahrging and undercrarging. This is old technology and one doe not need to revinvent the wheel everytime a new ev or hybrid car comes out.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "I know the Prius does have a state of charge computer in to promote battery life and overcrahrging and undercrarging. "

    True, but the question is - does this same battery life technology also work on LiIon? They are notoriously bad on longevity in laptops. One of the characteristics I found in my Dell is that occasionally it had to be discharged almost fully, or battery use-life would suffer. Also, that battey is now dead; I find LiIon is good for about full 500 cycles.

    I would be interested to hear from someone who has information on LiIon vs NiMh characteristics in this area.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    That has been my experience with my two Dell laptops since they started using Li-Ion batteries. I am sure Sony was not happy to recall a big share of the Dell laptop batteries they sold, because of the threat of fire. So it may be old technology. Is it ready for the automobile? Oh, and my 5 year old Dell laptop with a NiMH battery is still doing nearly as good as new.

    To be practical the PHEV will need a storage system that can use more than 60% of the capacity, as the Toyota hybrids do.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    I am not disputing the current cost of hybrid batteries. I would just like to see some solid evidence that they have come down in price. Not just bloggers popping out figures on the cost of hybrid batteries 7 years ago. The price was protected because Toyota did not want to scare people with the truth. In CA with 150k mile warranty it is kind of a non-issue until you reach 150,001 miles on your hybrid.
    I do not think they have overcome the problems inherent in Li-Ion batteries to the point they will be used by Toyota to build a PHEV. That 100 MPG Prius was a gimmick car sent to Great Britain to get those folks interested in hybrids. It is not an easy sell where there are many choices of fuel efficient cars. This is discussion of PHEV so I will add this from your link.

    Q: Is this the kind of battery that would be used if a plug-in hybrid system is developed?

    GS: A system like that might use nickel-metal hydride or lithium ion batteries. Plug-in systems need significantly more capacity than currently exists in the batteries in our hybrids. Toyota is exploring the possibilities for plug-in hybrids, but has made no determination about them.

    Q: What about the third-party suppliers who are converting Prius and some other hybrids to plug-in use?

    GS: Toyota's current hybrids are not designed for larger traction batteries, and the company discourages these modifications, which void the vehicle's warranty. The conversions that I'm aware of are very costly, add significant weight to the vehicle, and have not gone through the rigors of full engineering evaluation such as brake balance, crash testing and durability.
  • to all people who ask about priuses. Get out while you still can!!!!!! I have a 2002 prius. New computer, new fuel pump, 2 sets of new tires. New whatever the hell its called change kinetic energy to direct energy. That last thing would have been 3,400. I Am DONE. I'm starting to think Hyundai, but I'll probably go Tooyota or honda, which I should have done in first place. And I don't care what u say. They suck, suck, suck. And the last thing my people said who worked on it? It needs another set of guess what !@@#@#@$#$#$#%$%%$^%^%^ tires. I'm done. while the warranty runs out.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    How many miles on the car?
  • You have my sympathy ...BUT...You speak of the 1st Generation Hybrid and not the 2nd Generation models ('04 & up). I own an '04 and have nothing but praise. Winter milage is 37-42 and summer is a pretty honest 46-48. I bought my 1st set of replacement tires (Goodrich)($200.00) @ 52K and have a total of 56K now on the Prius. Problems with the car ...other than 2 recalls 1) for gas tank modification) 2) Recalibrating computer, I have had only one problem with the car. Replacement of a burned-out headlight bulb that's next to impossible to do yourself. I finally took it to the dealer & let them struggle with it (20 minutes) @ no charge. I suppose not everyone can see the Prius as the miracle car but danged if it isn't close to it in my oppinion. One surprise I find amazing about my Prius....I'm still on the original brake pads @ 56K. Never had any other car go that long B/4. :)
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "You have my sympathy ...BUT...You speak of the 1st Generation Hybrid and not the 2nd Generation models ('04 & up). I own an '04 and have nothing but praise."

    I should point out that you need to wait until 2009 to reach the same age. Also, the items he listed as failed do not come under the extended emissions warranty, so the owner pays.
  • Urbandude could help fill in some details....like you pointed out 1) how many miles? 2) Bought new or used? 3) Why the tire problem? 4) Do we all agree that the 1st gen is a much different breed from the much improved 2nd gen. Prius. We're all aware of the complexities of the hybrid Prius but with a more than outstanding warrantee I'm more than satisfied. Nuff said! :shades:
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "Urbandude could help fill in some details....like you pointed out 1) how many miles? 2) Bought new or used? 3) Why the tire problem? 4) Do we all agree that the 1st gen is a much different breed from the much improved 2nd gen. Prius. We're all aware of the complexities of the hybrid Prius but with a more than outstanding warrantee I'm more than satisfied. Nuff said!"

    Please report back in 2009...
  • Why not 2012, since that's when my "hybrid" warrantee expires. I hope we're not bumping heads here but I'd just like to say that the info from "urbandude" left alot unanswered. Obviously I consider the '04 Prius an incredible car and I've been aware that you have differing thoughts. I would like to point out that I've never had a car that exceeded my expectations like the Prius. As to urbandude, if he fails to fill in the blanks then I'd say a pass is in order cuz there are serious holes in his info. I can't speak about the '02 Prius but I have considerable knowledge as to the performance, handling, and quality of "my" Prius and with 3-1/2 yrs behind the wheel I can honestly state...2nd Gen. Prius is the car of the future here today. Nuff said! :D
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "Why not 2012, since that's when my "hybrid" warrantee expires. "

    Because the items he mentioned are not part of the "hybrid warranty", and have a 3 year / 36K (or possibly 50K) warranty.
  • You're right except I , like most prudent car buyers these days, have an extended warrantee, thus confident that my bases are covered. I have to admit though that the Prius has proven to exceed quality and dependability issues for me. Although there is no perfect car out there...This is as close as I've ever come to that holy grail of transportation. :)
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