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What to expect from the next model year Prius



  • pathstar1pathstar1 Posts: 1,015
    The Prius does something very interesting re engine braking. If you decend a very long hill (mountain pass for example), the regeneration very quickly fully charges (to 80% or so) the "traction battery". Further charging would take the battery into territory Toyota wants to avoid (for battery life reasons), so the car diverts that electric energy from the battery to the MG (motor generator) and uses it to spin the ICE. You still get regenerative braking (though you -could- call it engine braking), you are just no longer charging the battery. So it automatically "downshifts" as it tends to spin the engine rather high (4000+RPM).

    Now, if the traction battery were larger the car could recover more energy, but be aware, the amount of energy in the traction battery is not very great. It can take the car only a few miles at lower speed. In theory, a larger traction battery would translate into better mileage, but also higher weight and less cargo/passenger room and higher initial cost. Perhaps the next generation Prius will go this route, but we can't say for sure until we see one. ;)

    As far as the speculation on a diesel hybrid by other posters in this thread, in the US and Canada diesel is more expensive than gasoline - and the difference is about the same as the mileage difference, so I see no reason to go there at this time. In Europe diesel is subsidized (farm subsidy) and is less expensive. That's why it's popular there. There may be other reasons delaying a diesel hybrid car, such as noise/vibration when shutting down/starting at lights etc. but the fuel cost issue is probably the major one at present.
  • so you did read the article, so if i am wrong about the price, what is the actual price of the kit added to a new prius, i believe it would make the prius over $40000.

    Like you said before I didn't follow your replies because you confused a number of issues into the same as best as I can understand...

    so i wasnt comparing the two hybrids i was showing that diesel engines are more efficient than ICE's. Therefore it would make sense to think that a diesel~electric could be more efficient.

    link title there you can find all toyota recalls. And i do not think that 170,000 is a small recall by any stretch.

    1 the hybrid system wasnt perfect, it could be better
    2 my cousins diesel got 800 miles to a tank
    Camry Hybrid Prius 06 VW golf diesel
    Average User MPG 36.7 47.4 46.2

    MPG Range 28 to 42 37 to 60 43 to 51

    EPA estimates 40city 60 city 37 city
    38hwy 51 hwy 41 hwy

    Notice how the EPA estimates of the prius are inflated while the diesel gets better than EPA in average user MPG

    New diesels will not be as bad for the environment

    link title check yourself
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    so you did read the article, so if i am wrong about the price, what is the actual price of the kit added to a new prius, i believe it would make the prius over $40000.

    This a faulty conclusion. The reason the price is $10000 extra is because it's a one of a kind aftermarket kit. It's not an OEM option manufactured right into the vehicle.

    To put this to rest if the next Prius does have a plugin capability and the price is $40000. It won't sell. It won't happen though because Toyota wouldn't do such a ridiculous thing.

    I am aware of the steering recall. I had it done on my 2005 Prius. It took less than 15 min to add a reinforcement. It was done during a normal oil change and it cost nothing and no inconvenience. To me it is a non-issue. Move on. It's over.

    OK the old EPA values didn't reflect how people drive and the Prius numbers are too high, so what. The actual results you show that the Prius and the Golf are about equal, which is what I've been saying all along. There is no advantage to one or the other - except that diesels can't be sold in 5 of the most populous states until 2009 at the earliest.

    The hybrid Camry is in a different class than the Golf, compare it to the Passat diesel.

    New diesels may be better as you state. It remains to be seen. If they can't pass all the states emissions testing - at an economical price then it's the same situation as now.
  • Though they may be equal, but but if you notice the user average is above EPA estimates, the same can not be said for the prius. And i added the camry to show the another one of Toyota's hybrids.

    If people were told they would have to drive like extemely slow grandparents to get the EPA milage estimates, how many people would change their driving style to get those estimates or is driving a prius merely a way to silently sneer I'M ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY & YOU AREN'T?
  • riposteriposte Posts: 160
    Please let me know the relevance of this to the 2009 Prius.

    Thanks in advance.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,822
    This line of conversation is WAY off-topic, and posts that are a continuation of that debate will be removed without notice.

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  • The battery technology is still advancing. Altairnano has greatly increased the number of recharges their battery can withstand, and I believe that there is a Japanese company that has also made great strides in increasing the number of recharges. Of course, if EEStor ever comes out with their patented solution, I believe we will have the potential to completely eliminate the need to have a hybrid.
  • on the show in their auto section an all electric car that can recharge in ten minutes or overnight from a regular house outlet. Is it possible that the next prius could offer this technology for maybe an all electric version of the prius, or if not the prius an all electric car offered by toyota?
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Posts: 1,015
    I hear via the Japaneze grapevine that it will not be called a Prius. It would have a different model name.

    You can be sure that if it is practical, cool, and beneficial to the company, Toyota will make it. There is a small market currently for an EV. "Small market" refers to perhaps 100,000 sold over three years, rather than 3-4 times that.
  • In a recent car magazine I read, most likely Motor Trend or Automobile they had a small article showing a mini that had electric motors where the brake rotors used to be. They each produced, if I remember correctly, 75 or 100 hp, giving the mini somewhere near 400 hp. They also had regeneritive breaking.

    Also on link title in the auto section there is a battery replacement station that would eliminate the long recharging sessions. The battery is simply pulled out of the bottom of the car and replaced with a battery that had been recharged from another car. You can find out more about this for yourself. This doesnt really relate to the prius though.
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Posts: 1,015
    You'll note in the writeup it says "artists conception". A non-Toyota employed artist, with a good imagination. Does look cool though.

    I'd be VERY surprised if anyone got a hint of what is going to happen. Car manufacturers guard their plans with great security. Usually we get "spy photos" a few months before release of the car, when the manufacturer is testing the final product. Even then, the car usually has camo. bras etc. attached. When you see those, you can guess it's probably a new model and not some magazine sellers idea to make money.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Hybrid X shows us it's bootay :)

    It showcases a new hybrid system, too. Toyota is staying tight-lipped for now, but the car is likely to get a turbo­charged 1.8-litre 'lean-burn' engine - as we revealed in Issue 912 - which is capable of returning 100mpg. As well as being more economical, the next Prius will be faster and offer lower emissions. Toyota is also considering a plug-in version that can be connected to owners' mains electricity supply. When the Prius goes on sale in 2008, it will cost nearly £20,000.
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Posts: 1,015
    Sure sure. It's a concept car! It says so in the article, but I've seen other postings about it on other forums. Most Toyota concept cars never make it to production (unlike some other manufacturers).

    Also keep in mind the Prius is much more expensive in Britian than in the US (or Canada). So 20,000 pounds, about what, $35,000 US, is about what the current model is selling for.

    Yet another article to sell magazine copies.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Actually, it's more than a "concept" car. It's a preview of the next gen hybrid systems.

    And the USA Prius does not sell for $35K - about $8-10K less than that.

    Everyone who follows hybrids knows that Toyota is reducing the hybrid system by 50% and is shooting for a 94 MPG Prius for the next generation.

    That's not a "concept" but is their stated goal for a production-level car.
  • What does 'reducing the hybrid system by 50%' mean?

    Can we assume that the goal of 94 MPG means that it will most likely be a plug-in?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "reducing the hybrid system by 50%" means just that - making the actual physical mechanical and electrical components 50% smaller in size. Having them take up less room in the car, add less weight, and have fewer components doing the job.

    They have not confirmed that the 94 MPG will be done with plug-in technology, but that's as good a guess as any I suppose. :shades:
  • This is BIG!

    Will Toyota's next generation of hybrids, which are expected in late 2008 or early 2009, focus on fuel economy or performance?
    When we shifted from the first generation to the second generation hybrid we enhanced substantially performance in many different aspects. On top of that, we reduced both the cost and size by half. We are currently working on the third generation hybrid, which will also have a much higher performance and good mileage per gallon. On top of that we are now aiming at reducing, by half, both size and cost of the third generation hybrid system. We are not yet at the stage where we can disclose data relating to performance or fuel consumption.

    Will Toyota use Lithium-Ion batteries in the next generation hybrids?
    We will change the battery from nickel hydride to the lithium battery, and therefore we would like to reduce the size of the motors and inverters by half, so the overall size of the hybrid system can be reduced by half.

    There's been a lot of discussion lately over how long it will take Li-Ions that are safe and durable for autos. Will the batteries be ready in time?
    Yes, I believe we can develop this battery in time. Occasionally I visit the site where the development is going on to see the trial model.

    But were you worried by Sony's problems last year when Li-Ions in laptops were reportedly catching fire?
    Of course, we're experimenting on the problem that Sony encountered last year. We are making sure that the problem can be avoided. Automobiles are used in different conditions. For example, cars are used in temperatures from -20 degrees Celsius to 40 degrees Celsius and are constantly exposed to high vibrations. It's extremely difficult to build those systems for automobiles compared with cell phones which are used in relatively stable environments. These difficulties must be reflected in the design.

    link title
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Posts: 1,015
    Absolutely. In the Prius II (current model - I think the "snippet" you posted is for the Prius I), the "traction battery" is protected by fuses and relays, and by a ground fault system. -ANY- fault to ground (the only thing that would cause a fire as there is NO hydrogen to burn with a NIMH battery) will shut off the battery - both conductors, to the rest of the vehicle. Even a collision will shut it off, if it's violent enough to trigger the collision system (airbags). There is a "normal" 12 V lead acid gel cell battery in the Prius as well. It's protected by a fuse, and is in the right rear, just ahead of the taillamps. You could cause a fire by shorting this battery, just like every other car on the road.

    It is possible to cause a short in the traction battery by crushing the vehicle enough to collapse the battery steel box. There is a fuse in the battery which would make this short momentary at best. At this point any passengers would be squashed beyond recognition, as the battery is in the centre of the vehicle, on the floor - the strongest part of the vehicle. In other words, the traction battery would be the last thing to be badly damaged in a collision.

    Keep in mind the Prius traction battery doesn't really hold a lot of energy. It's about 7 AHr at 201.6 V. That's just over 1400 WHrs. About twice what a "normal" car battery holds. It isn't an electric car, it's a gasoline powered car that uses electric/electronic components to maximize the efficiency of operation of the gasoline powerplant.

    Anyone can download the "emergency workers instructions" from the Toyota site. Much of the information I posted comes from this document.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Like I said before:

    LI-ION IN THE STREETS Yet Toyota should soon be giving the environmental lobby something to cheer about. In an interview with BusinessWeek on Feb. 16, Chief Executive Katsuaki Watanabe confirmed that Toyota's third-generation hybrid cars, due out in late 2008 or early 2009, will use lithium-ion batteries. Lighter and more powerful than the current nickel metal hydride packs, the new batteries will help make for more fuel-efficient hybrids. "We will change the battery from nickel hydride to the lithium battery," the CEO said during a rare one-on-one interview at the company's headquarters in Toyota City. Toyota officials say it's the first time Watanabe had confirmed the change of cells (see, 2/22/07, "Talking with Toyota's Top Man").

    While widely expected, some had wondered whether Toyota's li-ions would be available in time for its new hybrid system. Watanabe, who occasionally visits the site where the batteries are being developed, has no doubts: "We can develop the battery in time," he says.

    It's not just the batteries that will be better. The rest of Toyota's next-generation hybrid systems will also be a big step up from what's on the road today. "We are now aiming at reducing, by half, both size and cost of the third-generation hybrid system," saysWatanabe. That should go some way to bringing the price of hybrids closer to regular gasoline cars.

    Toyota's plans for the future of hybrid systems
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