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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I personally regard hybrids as computerized nightmares and ultimate appliances and really believe that despite Toyota 'championing' the cause that they will eventually fall out of favor as word gets out that not only are the FE ratings a joke but also that the cost premiums are out of kilter with the fuel savings. In its place, at least in the short term, these new high tech diesels. But, the last thing I would want to see - higher gas taxes to pay for national health care - getting the government involved in almost anything is asking for trouble (and waste)! ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The money folks save in gas, will be spent on any maintenance and repairs the car will need. Which from my understanding...hybrid maintenance is much more costly since it's considered specialized!!!!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    precisely, and the reason for the 'computer nightmare' comment. To repair a computer these days, we simply start replacing stuff until the silly thing starts working again or press Cntr-Alt-Del in hope the thing will somehow fix itself - in either case you never know what went wrong or why. Used to tuneup and repair all my cars myself, all the way up to engine rebuilds - but these days am pretty much limited to oil changes and brake jobs - wouldn't be dumb enough to even attempt an engine rebuild on my Avalon. Add in the extra complexities of an interacting electric motor or two, and my dumbness could then be called idiocy as soon as I touched the thing!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I feel you...my mechanical dabblings also have been limited to oil changes and brake jobs too. And folks wonder why they are still buying those old Crown Vics and Grand Marquis!!! ;)
  • hardhawkhardhawk Posts: 702
    The one constant in the boating world is that the boats keep getting bigger and bigger. Ours is a 22' boat that, with trailer, weighs 5000 pounds. The new model of our same 22' boat weighs almost 1000 pounds more than ours. The Gm triplets won't cut it because of their lack of a frame. Our Envoy has about the same horsepower as the new triplets, but it has a frame for the heavy duty load equalizing hitch. If you go to any lake in our area and look at the launch parking lot, all you see are body on frame SUV's & pickups.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I guess that would be for you serious boaters! LOL

    I think the companies know this and have found a way to keep a need for those large SUV's and trucks.

    Guess for all the other ones, they can get a decent fishing boat down to the lake!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well, we do have our one poster here that will tell us that they are the greatest (and cheapest) things since the The Sea parted. And indeed, there may have been some Crown Vics there when that happened. :D
    The conflict is, of course, the sacrifices you make for the simplicity and lack of sophistication. The way I look at it, if I'm going to get 50 more HP, several more mpg, and overall a safer, more enjoyable and better car to drive then a price will necessarily have to be paid, the results of some of this technology that is in one car and not in the other. I am getting a little old to be hanging chain hoists over my hood anymore anyway, and I fully expect to drive any car I buy these days to get me to at least the 100k mark before I have any trouble with it all in any case - at which point I'm probably tiring of it and/or Toyota has figured out a way to get me 400HP, RWD, and 30 mpg in the 2010 model!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You are absolutely correct!!!
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,023
    "400HP, RWD, and 30 mpg in the 2010 model"

    You forgot to keep it under 35K!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...Hyundai'll get it pretty close in 2008, IF they drop the Genesis.

    300+ hp, RWD, gas mileage unknown right now, but...the kicker is that will be available for the low to mid-$30's!!! That's something you'll NEVER see Toyota or Honda pull off.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'll eat your hat if any 300+ hp V8 from Hyundai and/or several mfgrs I can think of will do even half of that 30 mpg (I was talking about overall FE). This prized Genesis that you Hyundai folk are championing, figures to be be very similar in almost all respects to the 300C and the 'new' Impala including price and prospective buyers. One can only hope that Hyundai (and GM) can do a little better form a reliability and FE perspective than Chrysler has. Premium 'sports sedan' buyers (perhaps unfairly) won't give it a first look, they really want to have to spend $50k or so - and Hyundai is a long long way from being able to charge that kind of money for anything.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Go ahead and forward me your address, I'll be sure to send you one of my good hats so it won't taste too badly! :P

    Hyundai has been on the come up in the reliability department, now they just need to work on their customer service. I really don't think the Genesis is geared towards premium sport sedan buyers, rather...towards those that want a premium sport sedan and can't afford the likes of BMW, Infinity, Lexus or Benz.

    Also, considering the price point, if Hyundai is on the mark like the rest of their vehicles...bang for your buck advantage will tip heavily in their favor compared to the 300 C or Impala SS.

    However, the current trend that Hyundai has going now (customer service withstanding), more and more folks will start to actually start giving their vehicles a thought. The redesigned Elantra is a very sharp commuter/college student car, the Sonata is proving to be a worthy competitor to the Camry and Accord, the Azera is grabbing attention, and making folks that want the Avalon take a look.

    Basically, I look at Hyundai (right now) as the maker that's providing a very nice option for those that don't have the money to plunk down on something costing $10K-30K more. However, if Hyundai is going to be serious about the whole luxury thing, then they MUST get a rein on their customer service practices because folks will demand better!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    while I have no doubt that Hyundai is improving from a reliability standpoint (the Sonata started off very well and has since degraded slightly, the Azera OTH has been excellent although the jury is still out) - what is this stuff about potential head gasket leaks BTW/). But that is really not the problem if we are talking about Hyundai's acceptance into higher end markets. That problem is (and will continue to be awhile yet) that this kind of thing is NOT what the public perceives Hyundai to be - Hyundai is still thought as a manufacturer of 'cheap' cars. Back in the 60s Toyota had a similar reputation, it took maybe 15 or even 20 years for the car buyer to begin to understand that they were actually better than what else was available at the time. This may also true with Hyundai right now, we simply don't know yet, but how do you expect Hyundai to change a reputation that took them 10 or 15 years to establish with a few good cars that have only been around a year or two? IMPO they would be better off staying in the 'low end' market and simply doing things better than have instead of trying to compete in markets where they have very little chance of success.
    The 'hat' address BTW is:
    Captain2
    c/o President Hilary
    1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
    Washington DC 10001
    subject to change, of course, as I consider my move to Canada at that point! ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,023
    Being a 3 time Toyota person, its going to be very difficult for me to switch over to Hyundai. My local dealer has really treated me well over the years (they should my family, friends and Employer have the total cars over 10 in 7 years) Having said that, if Hyundai makes the Genesis I will give it a look in March of '09 when my Avy goes back. I must admit that I am not to sure that FE will be what I am expecting. I want FE similar to what my Av gets and more power. Sounds like a lot, but maybe Hyundai can pull it off. If not, I hope that the Avalon is redesigned by then!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Personally, I haven't heard anything about the potential head gasket leak. If it happens, it'll get taken care of. Will it be an inconvenience...sure. Will I fret over it...not at all. It will only cost me a little bit of my time. :shades:

    The only folks that perceive Hyundai to be cheap cars are those that have never driven them. They are people that are stuck on stigmas and what they've heard. I guarantee you that if you took a large number of folks and had them go test drive a Hyundai, their perception would change drastically IF...they were being honest.

    You say that Hyundai should stay at the 'low end' market...and to be quite honest, that's what they are doing. They are just bringing quality to that low end and those that prefer the likes of Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Infinity are nervous. What's really scaring folks right now is that Hyundai seems to be putting out a very good product with a great fit and finish, along with technology that others are selling for $6k and more.

    Everyone is quick to harp on Hyundai and their start, but folks NEVER talk about the start that Toyota and Honda had...they were NOT the reliable cars they are today. Hyundai stands out more because you have the other 2 to compare it with at this point. I think Hyundai is proving to be serious about sticking around for the long haul.

    I figured you wouldn't back your end of the bet up...you too are scared that Hyundai will make you eat your words. :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I've owned 3 Toyotas in my life as well. I've also had 3 Hyundai vehicles.

    I can never talk bad about Toyotas as far as the reliability goes. My first car was a '80 Tercel, then I had an '86 1/2 Supra, followed by a '96 Camry. All 3 cars were great!

    I've owned an '87 Excel (that had well over 250K miles when it was totaled) and the ony component that was changed was the transmission. After my Camry was totalled, I went looking for a car to replace it. I took a look at the '02 Camry and at the time, I couldn't afford the $23K they wanted. A buddy of mine told me to give the Sonata a look, so I did. Test drove it, worked the numbers and for everything I was getting in the Camry, the Sonata was only going to cost me $16,800. I owned it for 4 years, putting 105K miles on it and there were no problems. Sure, a couple of hiccups, but what car doesn't have them? When I say hiccups, I mean something that a dealer usually has fixed in about an hour. Only time the dealer kept the car more than a day was when I got the timing belt replaced, along with the spark plugs, alignment and a new bra that had to be ordered. Other than that...the car made me forget all about the Camry that I had grown to love.

    That being said...the Azera doesn't make me miss any of the cars I've had in the past...not a single one!

    The FE on the Genesis may be the only sticking point as it seems to be with the Azera for some. However, it's no worse than the FE on the Maxima to be honest. I think it is possible for them to get it around 30 mpg if they do things right. Only time will tell on this one.

    However, if you want more power and the same FE as your Avalon, why not step up and get you a GS350??? I mean...that's about as close as you're gonna get to keeping the FE you had and getting more power. I guarantee you this much, if they upgrade the Avalon to match the numbers the GS350 has...you're gonna be paying GS350 money anyway to get it.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Infinity are nervous.
    this is where we'll disagree - Honda/Toyota/Nissan (and of course 'Detroit') do need to be keeping a wary eye on those 'pesky' Koreans - Infiniti/Acura/Lexus not even in the same zip code. If Hyundai truly wants to compete with them - they need a name change and a substantial price increase, selling thru some serious 'butt kissing' new dealers. And yes, just like I said in 2342, there was a reason for the the term 'Japcrap' about 40 years ago something that had changed by the late 70s/early 80s. Rome wasn't built or reinvented in a day, and don't expect Hyundai to either.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I guarantee you if the Genesis is all it is being hyped to be...Infiniti, Lexus and Acura will take notice.

    It's already a publicized, known fact that Toyota is looking over their shoulder at Hyundai. There have even been discussions about Toyota bullying vendors into not selling to Hyundai.

    You are right about one thing, Hyundai will need to do something about their dealers. That will be the Achille's heel for Hyundai.

    Hyundai won't do a complete overhaul in a day (as you put it), but they are well on their way. They seem to have an understanding of what the consumer wants and they are giving it to them, a great price even. Take the price of the Azera for instance, it makes it pretty hard to worry about adaptive cruise control, Blutetooth, navigation and stuff like that. Hyundai has an advantage that Toyota and Honda didn't have...a blueprint to follow left by those two.

    I don't see a name change as being what Hyundai needs. Everyone will still see them as Hyundai. Eventually, I see them doing like Toyota, Honda and Nissan have done...create a luxury brand and bring true premium sedans to market under that badge. However, I think they are fine with the vehicles they have under their current badge...with the upcoming Genesis being the last one they should try to bring out.

    They've basically covered all segments except for pick-up and convertible. I mean...sub-compact economy, compact economy, mid-size, large sedan, mini-crossover suv, mid-size suv, full-size suv, sport coupe and mini van. And now they want to add full-size luxury sport sedan as well. They have every walk of life covered and offer a viable option for those that don't want to pay what Honda, Toyota and Nissan want for theirs. Simple economics in this day and age where everyone wants more for their money. That's exactly what Hyundai vehicles offer.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I guarantee you if the Genesis is all it is being hyped to be...Infiniti, Lexus and Acura will take notice.
    'hype' maybe the key word here, but you want to give me your address for my hat?
    people that spend the $50k+ on a Lexus GS, a M45, a 550, , or even an RL are spending that money for more than just good cars and therefore won't take notice. Manufacturers won't take notice until potential customers do as well.
    Kind of like Hyundai's recent run of ads comparing the Sonata to a 525 or a Santa Fe to a Land Rover, those kind of buyers couldn't care about some 'value' perception, they WANT to pay more and get a 'proper' nameplate. Hyundai should bide its time and solidify a quality reputation before attempting to bite off more than the market is ready to chew. Toyota had already done exactly that well before they even attempted Lexus in the later 80s, and even then were perceived (and priced) as a 'value' choice to a MB 'S' or BMW 7 series at the time.
    Why do you suppose, for example that Infiniti was a lot more of a problem for Nissan than Lexus was for Toyota - do you think just possibly it was because Nissan didn't start with the same 'bulletproof' reputation that Toyota had at the time? The blueprint for success is right in front of Hyundai and there is more to it than simply just making better cars and flooding the market with new models, and tongue-in-cheek ads.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Allmet why are you talking about a car , which doesn't exist yet. This forum is for cars already on the market. Who knows what will Nissan or Toyota make in 2 years. It might be a 350+ hp awd car. So lets go back to our topic of "Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison" that are currently out, not "future cars"
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