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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    To be fair, the Nissan VQ and most recently the Toyota 2GR set the standards by which engines of this size and type should be judged - not only in power output but also in FE. Hyundai's 3.8 is a good effort, however, just lacking some of the sophistication of those two.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the 3.8 is damn near as old as I am - dating well back into the 60s as a Buick '231'. Except for some dubious flirtations with plastic intake manifolds it has generally been at least reliable - perhaps as it should be - GM has had 50 years to work on it! A web search on the 'Buick 231' will yield things like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine#Future_of_the_3800e:
    which traces its history thru its multiple renditions and also notes that next year it is finally scheduled to put out of its misery.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, you had to floor it to kick down, but I never had any lack of passing power.

    Which sounds like the engine struggled to move the car, to me. Either that, or the transmission is a terrible piece that works against the driver.

    I'm not trying to bash the engine itself. It was fine 10, 20 years ago. But it simply lacks the polish, the torque, and the horsepower to compete with more modern, smaller, and more efficient engines. I'm really knocking GM for not updating its engine package. Ford finally did with the Taurus. While it was overdue for them, at least they weren't the LAST ones offering such an engine in a vehicle.

    By the way, I'm a 4-cylinder guy, so I'm not a power-hungry kind of person. But for a 2.4L 166 hp engine in my car, I'd hope an engine 1.5x its size would make 1.5x its power, but the Lucerne doesn't come close. 30 more horses for an extra liter and a half of engine. Sure there's more torque, but when I need to merge, the horsies are what matter.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    My SC 3.8 has 163k mi on it and it is only controllable on clean dry pavement when aimed straight ahead (with TC turned off). The 240 HP, 282 ft-lb car pulled the 12 yr old 3690 lb car new past Hemi V8 Durango in most recent test of it's passing power. How much lighter is an Azera V6?
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Posts: 124
    We really have no arguement here. The 3.8 IS old and I suspect that it is in its last year of production. Will likely be replaced by the more modern 3.6 which by all accounts is a good engine - I only hope it is as indestructible. As I said, if I'm the one paying for it, will go for the V8.
  • vic10 - I guess you don't know that the 300C is built on the old Mercedes E-class platform. So, in many respects you are driving a German car.

    I fully understand, and appreciate, your feelings re. WWII, but most cars today have an international influence. It's really difficult to find a truly all-American car now. Even Ford's Duratec engine is not a Ford design - it was a Porsche design, and Porsche sold all engineering drawings, and even some initial tooling, to Ford.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai's 3.8 will have 300hp on its RWD coupe; we'll see how these translate into the RWD luxury sedan and the facelift Azera. Promised to have improved fuel economy as well.
  • vic10vic10 Posts: 188
    Yes, I suppose with the incestuous corporate relationships these days, in another few years there will be one recipe book of layouts and technology and each manufacturer will pick from that one list to define his/her own vehicles, be it German, Japanese, Korean, American, whatever. That is if the Chinese don't poison us all first....

    Actually if I were to pick one system on the 300C that I don't like it's the suspension, which is perhaps the most dominant Mercedes item. Too firm. Too noisy. Love that U.S. Hemi though....
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I doubt if anyone really is interested in doing what you describe at all really. I mean...if that's what they do for testing, so be it. However, real world driving...not happening. As hard as I have pushed my Azera at times, I'm not completely crazy!!! LOL
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    Your saying that the Charger is worthless because it has under 300HP.Well you just eliminated every car on this board so what your saying also is that all these cars are worthless.None of these cars have V6 with 300 HP.The weight is the same as the Azera, although the Charger is much larger on the outside then the Azera.As far as the 3.5 VS the 3.8 Azera.When I looked at the 3.8, HP and Torque,the first thing I noticed was the Torque was lower then the HP.Thats one thing against it,Second it not a High output Engine.You have 13HP over the 3.5,but the 3.5 is a high output engine.Its HP matches its torque which is good.Being High ouput means that it has High performance Heads,Intake and Exhaust manifolds,cams something the 3.8 doesn't have.My 3.5 is the same engine used in the Police cars.The 3.8 wouldn't last one year as a police car.I know this because I worked on Police cars 23 Yrs.I have had Borlas dual exhaust put on my Charger.That makes me pretty equal to the Azeras.I don't think I would have any trouble beating the Azera.Don't under estimate the 3.5.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I have had Borlas dual exhaust put on my Charger.That makes me pretty equal to the Azeras.I don't think I would have any trouble beating the Azera.Don't under estimate the 3.5.

    You belittle the 3.8 in the Hyundai for an entire post and talk about all of this "High Output" mumbo jumbo, and then talk about how you have to modify your Chrysler mechanically to make it as good as the Azera. Something isn't adding up here xtec.
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    I didn't do it to keep up with the Azera ,I could care less about the Azera.I did it to get better FE as well as boosting the power.it was a win each way.Like I said the 3.5 is more durable then the 3.8.After reading the Azera forums,I don't think I would tell A friend to buy one.The front suspension problem is enough for me not to recommend it to anybody.Oh thats another thing the Charger is better then the Azera FE.Before the Exhaust modification I was getting over 19 city,with the duals I have hit over 20 a few times all city.My main reason is because I don't see gas prices going down in the near future.I has nothing to with trying to compete,I am very pleased with my Charger and wouldn't swap for anything on this forum.If you don't believe me thats your problem thats the truth.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I never said your point WAS to keep up with the Azera, I said that I find it odd that you can knock the Azera and praise the "High Output" engine from Chrysler and then say only after the modifications would your V6 Charger keep up with the Azera.

    We get it, you don't feel the Hyundai engine is a durable as the Dodge (there's no evidenciary support that I've seen backing that claim, but you are entitled to your opinion and won't pursue that further).

    Is the 3.5L in the Dodge and Chrysler not the same engine that debuted with the 300M back when Clinton was in the White House?

    To compare a mechanically modified Charger to a stock Azera isn't a fair comparison, when you think about it. It's like comparing apples to applesauce. A comparison loses its importance when you start talking about modded cars. One is modified, one is left alone = not a fair fight.
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    First of all the Azera has 13hp more then the Charger.They both are close to weight.There is something called horsepower to weight ratio.The Azera 13 horse advantage should make it faster.Now with equal horepower,my Charger would prevail because it is a hight output with better heads,intake,and exhaust manifolds.If you can't understand that,then I can't help you.This 3.5 is not the same 3.5 when they first came out with the Intrepid,and Concorde,or LHS.This engine came out in '98 and been improved since then.I had this engine in my '02 Intrepid SXT and was very pleased with the performance.
  • :)

    For a mechanic who sez he has worked on Police units for 23 years,
    you sure don't know what you are talking about.

    Here in town, we have three new "Hemi" units, and two of 'em are broken down!

    You can't believe that just because your 3.5 makes noise, that it's faster!
    NO, it's only noisier.

    Isn't the 3.5 rear drive? Do you know how much power is lost spinning a long driveshaft?
    You think a 3.5 rear drive unit is faster than a 3.8 front wheel drive? Get real!

    My Azera is box stock, and I say, bring your chopped top police unit around.

    If you have been a mechanic for so long, you must have worked on the 9C1s.
    Compare your chopped-topped Dodge to one of them.
    Ask the older officers which car they preferred, the 9C1 or these new junk Dodges.

    Why did you make the broad statement that the Azera wouldn't last a year?
    Elaborate please.

    Carry on, and keep busy as I know you must, maintaining those Chyslers. :lemon:

    :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    You don't have to talk down to me, I'm not trying to bash Dodge or promote Hyundai (I personally didn't care for either). You've just sort of contradicted your earlier statement, which is what I had responded to previously. That statement was:

    I have had Borlas dual exhaust put on my Charger.That makes me pretty equal to the Azeras.

    Deductive reasoning would say Borlas improve performace. You said "that," meaning the Borlas I presume, makes you pretty equal to the Azera. If I assume that performance was less on your charger BEFORE the Borlas were installed, then performance must have been less than equal to the Azera.

    In other words, your argument implied the Azera would be better than the Charger before the Borlas.

    These are family sedans, I realize. I'm just trying to understand your argument.
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    You DON"T know what your talking about.They had a show about Police cars and the best one was a Mopar and always will be.I worked on Fords,Chevies,and neither one could take the beating the Mopars took,I think I have more experience then you.
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    Your are somebody WHO doesn't know how to read a message board and puts in what you want it to say.I can't get through to you and no sense arguing with you.I dont care if Im equal with everycar on the planet,sorry to bust your bubble,but the Azera had NOTHING to do with my DECISION to put the Borla exhaust on,it something we talked about on the Charger board ,And some of us decided to add it on.Your making it a bigger deal then it is .Just leave it at that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Your are somebody WHO doesn't know how to read a message board and puts in what you want it to say.

    I haven't done anything to be talked down to, but telling me I don't know how to read a message board just doesn't make any sense. Putting in what I want to say? All I did was repeat what you said and then ask you about it further.

    I dont care if Im equal with everycar on the planet,sorry to bust your bubble,but the Azera had NOTHING to do with my DECISION to put the Borla exhaust on,it

    I never said the Azera had anything to do with your decision to put a Borla exhaust on your Charger. You brought up the Borla exhausts and how they made your car pretty equal with the Azera. I replied to your post asking about it, and I got a very unfriendly response.

    You aren't bursting my bubble, as I have no stake in seeing Dodge or Hyundai succeed.

    ANYWAY, can you drop the personal attacks please? Maybe we can talk about the vehicles? Do you really feel the Charger was not equal with the Azera before you modified it, or was your first post I responded to made in error? That's all I've wanted to find out, and I'll I've gotten is verbally beaten up.
  • :)

    You think, but how little you know!

    When will you learn? I have worked on the 9C1s more than you have.

    Ever hear of the WX3? Bet you have not. You name it, and I did it.

    Went though four motors and three trannies.

    Supercharged, 52 mm throttle body, custom made after-market heads, various cams,
    A S & M headers, a bigger diameter custom made driveshaft, widened factory rear
    wheels with 315/35s, custom programmed ECU to name a few. 3.73s, 9C1 springs.
    It's been more than ten years; I'm sure I forget some things.

    Forgot the best part. The WX3 is the 94-96 Impala SS which was based on the 9C1 don't you know? I'll bet you did not. But that's right, you're the professional mechanic.

    So don't tell us about your chopped top Dodge that you can't even see out of properly.
    Bet the tall officers simply love 'em for that. :confuse:

    Many cities are still driving the old 9C1s, the last of which was produced in 1996 because they are probably the best police unit produced in the last twenty years, bar none!

    Carry on, and keep on wrenching.
    Forget trying to argue cars with an old timer who probably
    has forgotten more than you know about cars!

    :)
  • Car and Driver tests: Jul '06, Azera 0-60 ..6.1, 1/4 mile..14.8
    Jul '05 Avalon 0-60..6.0, 1/4 mile..14.6
    Jul '05 Maxima 0-60..6.1, 1/4 mile..14.9
  • The Charger V6 weighs about 100 lbs more than the Azera, and has only 4 speeds in the tranny which will keep your H/O engine further away from its power peak. That Borla exhaust must be a good one 'cuz the 300C with the 3.5 V6 was over a second slower to 60 than the Azera as tested by C&D magazine.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    Hey guys
    Least you forget, these forums are designed to pass along information, opinions, and to have some fun.
    Let's not get so emotional.
    Have a great day and enjoy your ride!
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    Re 3606: "the 300C with the 3.5 V6 was over a second slower to 60 than the Azera as tested by C&D magazine."

    Good point cobrazera. Prior to my '07 Azera I drove a 2000 300M. At the time, it performed well 0-60, in the mid 7's. I later added a K & N CAI and picked up about + 7 HP. The difference in sound during WOT was truly a joy to behold. I miss that in the Azera.
  • :)

    Thanks cobrazera for backing up what I knew but couldn't find to document.
    We know that the Charger is somewhat heavier, and what with the rear
    wheel drive and a less than modern V6, it simply has to be slower.
    Note the poor fuel economy ratings of the 3.5 compared to the Azera. :(

    The supposedly "hot" 5.7 V8 hemi is not. Relatively slow and very thirsty. Can't
    figure why anyone would buy one? At $.28 per mile for fuel in town, never mind!

    Noisy exhaust systems and CAI do not a fast car make.
    Why anyone would do that to a semi-luxury type car is beyond me? :confuse:

    With that chopped top styling and loss of forward visibility, you either love 'em or hate 'em.
    They are certainly popular with the custom oversized wheel crowd don't you know?

    To each his own, n'est-pa? ;)

    :)
  • vic10vic10 Posts: 188
    "The supposedly "hot" 5.7 V8 hemi is not. Relatively slow and very thirsty. Can't
    figure why anyone would buy one? At $.28 per mile for fuel in town, never mind! "

    A straight highway of 28 mpg and all around (i.e. back and forth to work in mixed driving) in the 20 - 21 mpg range don't think qualifies as very thirsty. 'Course if you know someone with a really lead foot....

    I don't as much question some of the performance figures given as I do their relevancy. 0-60 has always been the standard but it really is a stupid parameter. How many times do you do a zero to sixty accel? The Hemi is at distinct disadvantage in a zero to anything. A Yugo floored at a stoplight will beat out a Hemi at first. The Yugo will just slowly skip away while the Hemi will sit there and melt the tires down to the rims. I bet most cars would match the Hemi from a standing start up to 30, maybe 40 mph. All it takes is specific gearing for 1st gear. The Ford 500 would jerk your head from a standing start like it was a drag racer because it was geared that way, but then could barely get out of its own way. A more interesting performance parameter--and one that I would be interested in, is a 30 (i.e. from an on-ramp) to 70 (freeway speed). Don't think you'd be able to label the Hemi "relatively slow" in that situation, and don't think the "hot" performing Avalon or Azera would look as good as they do in the 0 - 60mph.

    P.S. For those commenting on the V6 in the 300C: 300C's don't come with anything but the Hemi. Praise the Lord....Amen.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    FWIW the Avalon is great from 30 - 70. The only problem is on full throttle at 30 MPH the tires will slip causing the TC to kick in momentarily limiting engine power.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    If adding Bora exhausts makes your Charger EQUAL to the Azera, then you won't be beating it at all. LMAO Keep trying Xtec, keep trying. The fact of the matter is...you have to dump more money into a Charger with a 3.5 V-6 just to try and get it to perform like or slightly better than a STOCK Hyundai 3.8. Again...Azera is the better value (which is what the whole Charger vs. Azera convo. started about anyway).

    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....so because it doesn't say High Output, the Azera is slow??? Are you implying that because the 3.5 is an "HO" engine that the 250 hp it's rated at is a low rating? LMAO Simply put, the higher torque your Charger has will only mean that it'll get off the line better than the Azera. However, the extra HP in the Azrea will more than make up for that once in 2nd gear.

    The sad thing is...the Azera isn't even a "performance" sedan and it'll still run with a Charger with the 3.5 HO V-6. What should that be telling you??? The American V-6's are NOT keeping up with the foreign V-6's...simply put! Imagine if Hyundai did make the Azera more of a performance based sedan and cranked the torque up and stiffened the suspension. Your poor Charger definitely wouldn't stand a chance, even with the additional tuning you've done.

    Pull a stock Charger SXT w/3.5 HO V-6 off the show room floor and pull a stock Azera Limited with the 3.8 V-6...I guarantee you, it'll be a pretty close run, but the Azera will beat the Charger. Even with the add-on's you thrown in the mix, you MIGHT have just brought your Charger dead even with the Azera in the peformance category! LMAO Now THAT...is funny!!!

    You spent close to the same amount of money I did for your car, then you went and spent even more money to pump up the performance because you realized what everyone else has already stated, the 3.5 in your precious SXT is NOT worth a hill of beans. Oh...for your info, the 3.5 in your SXT MAY be the same engine that goes some of the police cars (however, it's is definitely not tuned like one), but the majority of them get the V-8. Only local municpalities get the V-6 versions. State and county police get the big guns when it comes to the engines in their cruisers.

    Nobody is underestimating the 3.5 YOU have, you're underestimating the 3.8 in the Azera because you haven't driven one and you really don't know what it's about.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You totally missed the point of what was being said. You stated that your 3.5 is so great, that it's a high output engine and this and that, but...you had to ADD a performance exhaust and then make the statement that your 3.5 is now pretty equal to the 3.8 in the Azera.

    I know this may be asking a lot, but stop and think for a minute...

    ...okay, take another couple of minutes...

    Alright...are you getting it yet???

    Nobody is contending that you want to swap your car for anything else, you're entitled to your preference. I certainly wouldn't want to swap my Azera for a pathetic Charger/Magnum/300 with the 3.5. Okay, pathetic is rather harsh here...how bout sub-par...yeah, that works better. Which is what was being said all along, the Amercican V-6's just don't compete with the foreign V-6's. There are foreign 4 bangers that can run with American 6's all day long.
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