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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Hey, to say that the V6 Charger is worthless is totally IN MY OPINION and if you don't agree with it, fine, express your opinions and move on. And let's be real here, in my post I didn't just say it is worthless without explanation. I stated my case and if that's different than your view, tough, because last I checked this is still a free country and we still have the freedom of speech.

    If you don't care about other people like your cars or not then why are you here yapping constantly? You are totally contradicting yourself from the very beginning. Actually sir, people here have already moved on to other topics but unfortunately due to your post now the Charger vs. Azera is back.

    Also, maybe you should check out your post too because every single one of those sounds like an Azera bash to me. You should seriously think about that before complaining about all the Charger bashing. Just remember that when you point a finger at somebody, there are 3 pointing back at you.

    Unbelievable!!!
  • You people are all crazy :) All I have to say is I love my Charger! I probably would love all the others here too. Its so big and comfortable and also handles well. It is a little slow off the line but I don't mind because its so relaxing to drive and it has tons of power on the highway. (Its the SE with 3.5L engine.) I noticed in the specs that this engine has the tallest final drive ratio of any charger so its not set up for "charging" anyway. :blush:
  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    I think you guys crazy still arguing about the Charger vs Hyundai yet. This has been going on for days.....Give it a break.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "I noticed in the specs that this engine has the tallest final drive ratio of any charger"

    Two words... Fuel Economy. Just like the Buick Lucerne 3800 insanely tall top gear to squeeze out every last MPG.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    re: 3679: I think you guys crazy still arguing about the Charger vs Hyundai yet. This has been going on for days.....Give it a break.

    I agree, enough is enough. I am amazed one of the referee "hosts" hasn't stepped up to put a halt to this.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    What, you're amazed the host hasn't stepped in to break up comparing cars in the **gasp** comparison thread?

    ???

    I keep trying to introduce new topics, such as where the Taurus fits into all of these vehicles, and looking for reports from people who drive them. We keep coming back to Hyundai and Charger.
  • Tall final drive ratios do not necessarily mean the vehicle is geared tall overall. You must multiply the final drive ratio by the top gear ratio to get to overall gearing.
    If the Charger final drive of 3.07 is coupled with a top gear of .8, for example, that's the same as a final drive of 3.66 with a top gear of .67.
    Tire diameter is also a factor - taller tires having the effect of taller gearing.
    How many RPMs is the Charger turning at a 70 MPH cruise, that's the question.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Point out one time that I've put down another car! The only thing I've said is that American V-6's aren't worth the metal they are made out of (currently). I've also said that it's sad that it takes an American V-8 to compete with foreign V-6's (performance-wise).

    Let's see...I've said the Avalon is a great car, just that it was too pricey for me.

    I've said the 500 (at the time I was looking) was very roomy (cavernous even), but the interior seemed to clinical and uninviting to me. I also knocked it's totally lethargic V-6 (worse than it's current offering).

    The Impala...the only thing I can and have said about it...it's a cop car. There's nothing inspiring about it...inside or outside.

    The Maxima...if you're looking for an athletic car, very well appointed...this is the one. However, one should expect a harder ride than most of the other cars in this segment. Only drawback on the current Maxima is the Altima. Why would you want the Max when you can get pretty much the same amount of car and more horse power for the same amount of money? Now Alexstore and I had a debate as to whether or not his '05 Max would dust my '06 Azera, but there was no bashing going on...just a throwing around of facts and personal feeling.

    The Lucerne...very stylish car, very roomy, well appointed...only knock...weak V-6 and didn't want the V-8.

    The 300...let's see, the American Camry...everyone has one. Not wild about the high windows which creates a lot of blind spots. Also, another "clinical" interior. My mother-in-law has one and after driving it...I was not impressed with it.

    The Charger...a very aggressive move by Dodge style-wise. Great potential for tunability. However...as with the rest of the American entries...weak V-6's. I'm not saying they're terrible, just that they could be better.

    I've stated all the reasons I liked/disliked all the cars, but I also stated why I didn't purchase any of them and ended up getting the Azera I'm driving today. So please, I implore you to point out when I've ever BASHED someone's vehicle. The only thing I've done is point out facts and state my opinions based on those facts. You on the other hand...well, you're in your own little world believing what you want to believe. Since nobody agrees with you in how you feel about your Charger, then we are attacking you and bashing your car. No my friend, neither is the case. What was being attacked was your contradictory statments and what was being pointed out was mere facts that you just don't want to accept as truth.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    the host is going to step in and say this: we're getting too personal. Please stop posting about each other and keep your comments on the cars.

    Thank you.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I didn't see your post before I posted.

    We're going to drop the "who said what when" now because all that does is perpetuate the focus on each other.

    Enough.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "How many RPMs is the Charger turning at a 70 MPH cruise, that's the question"

    Good point. Maybe one of the Charger (or 300) drivers could chime in and answer it. I would guess that it falls in the 2100 - 2300 range like most of the other vehicles here.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • I went on a long highway trip between LA and San Francisco a couple weeks ago but I don't normally drive on the highway. The engine was doing about 2100 rpms at 70 if I recall correctly, and which I consider to be pretty relaxed. No doubt this car is set up for highway cruising (this is the Charger with 3.5L engine).

    As an aside for anyone interested I got 27 mpg overall on the drive between LA and SF averaging in the 70s. On the way back I went slower to see what kind of a difference it might make to the mileage. I averaged in the 60s and got 30mpg for the whole trip back to LA. Driving that slow was sure relaxing - I almost dozed off at one point! But it did take noticeably longer. :)
  • keitha3keitha3 Posts: 124
    theronrohr,

    I really enjoy your posts and enthusiasm for your Charger.

    Even though I'm more on the Hyundai side of the discussion, makes me want to give the Charger another go before any final decisions are made.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Thanks for the info, exactly the same as my 06 Avalon. The last long trip I took in my Av I got almost 29 at 75 - 85. It will easily pull 30 at a steady 70. Of course, my routine driving sitting in Jersey traffic I usually am at 21 - 22 :(

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • The GM 3.6 V6 which you have in your SUV, with anywhere from 250HP to the 304HP Direct Injection version, and the Ford 3.5 V6 are both pretty decent engines as far as output and modern engineering. The 3.5 HO Chrysler is not terribly bad, though it's getting long in the tooth and lacks variable valve timing. Point is, not all American V6s are dinosaurs.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You know...it's not the V-6's that go into the trucks & SUV's that are the problem. They've always done good with those engines. It's the cars that end up suffering. You have to remember, at one point most of the R&D money went into developing the power trains for the trucks and suv's. The cars suffered greatly and it showed. It wasn't until the American companies started mergine with the foreign companies that they started making strides in the development of better engines and transmissions.

    I did state that the 3.5 (so called HO) isn't terrible, but it certainly could be better. I think the best move forward on American V-6's (for cars) will be in the upcoming Pontiac G8 as well as the 2008 Cadillac CTS. Also, the one that's being used in the Saturn Aura/Chevy Malibu is pretty good from what I've seen so far. I think it's the perfect powerplant for that size car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I was on the highway last night, I set the cruise control so that the speedo needle was dead on 70 and the tach needle was resting just above the 2K mark. So I would say they are pretty much about the same.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Keitha3...the only thing I would say about choosing between the Azera and the Charger is to go in knowing what kind of car you're looking for. If you want something with a more athletic leaning...then the Charger is the one for you. If you're looking for a comfortable highway cruiser with touches of luxury...then the Azera will foot that bill.

    Do yourself a favor, test drive them both back to back and see which one sways you. I will say this much...don't just take them for a spin around the block. Try and drive them over roads you normally traverse. You've driven them and you know how cars you've had before handled them. If you can swing it, try to spend at least a couple hours with each car to really get a good feel for the cars.

    Good luck!
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    That is good advice Allmet. When I was comparing the Avalon to Lucerne I had the opportunity to drive them on the exact same roads (dealers were across the street from one another). It really helps when comparing things.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I bring it up because I've seen postings where folks have complained about something AFTER they've bought a car and it's usually something that would have come up if they had spend a little more time with the vehicle in question. When I bought my Azera, I was able to drive it along my commute route here in the DC area. Trust me, the roads in this area aren't the greatest at all. They gave me the key and told me to go pick my wife up and see how I liked the car. 2 hours later...I was back asking them to let me sign the paperwork.

    I did take a look at the Avalon & 500 (at the time) and I even gave the Lucerne consideration. For me...the Avalon was above my budget and the Lucerne and 500, while within budget, just didn't have the power the Azera did. Not to mention, I try to hold onto a car for a long time and the warranty was a huge attraction as well. One good thing with the Mopar products...lifetime powertrain warranty. In the end, it's probably going to come down to the car that evokes a feeling from you. Sorta like that Cadillac CTS commercial, "When you turn the car on, does it return the favor?" ;)
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    I would have to say My Charger is better ride then the Azera,I'm not trying to argue,but I'm allowed my opinion.First of all the Charger has a 120 inch wheelbase.Its common knowledge that the longer the wheelbase,the better the ride.My car weighs about the same,so thats a wash.My car has a Mercedes platform,I think we know how a Mercedes rides.Its a known fact that the Azera 06/07 have a bad design front suspension.I want to make sure thats there is a fair comparison.Once again you wont accept that the 3.5 is a H.O. what a shame.I would like to say we will never agree,so this could go forever and I for one don't want that to happen.Until you stop putting down the Charger I will continue.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Its common knowledge that the longer the wheelbase,the better the ride

    No, not really. It also depends on the suspension. Also, I think you meant "handles" instead of "ride" because it's a common knowledge that the Azera is a very comfortable highway cruiser and Charger is a sporty RWD large sedan.

    The Buick Lucerne has much longer wheelbase than the Civic, does it ride or handle better than the later?

    My car weighs about the same,so thats a wash

    I wouldn't call 200lb a wash. I don't know about you but I can feel the difference with my girlfriend in the car and she weighs less than 110 lbs.

    My car has a Mercedes platform

    Your car has a dated Mercedes platform. It's a common knowledge that the 300/Charger rides on the last generation E-class' platform. Granted that it is a Mercedes platform but given how quickly technology advance these days I wouldn't be surprised that the Azera platform is equal if not better than a dated German platform.

    Its a known fact that the Azera 06/07 have a bad design front suspension

    It is a known fact that you can take the Azera back to the dealer for them to fix that.

    Once again you wont except that the 3.5 is a H.O.

    It is been cleared that the Chrysler 3.5 is a HO when comparing to another version of the 3.5 within the Chrysler engine lineup. However, there is nothing HO about it when comparing to other V6s in this category. You want HO, I'll give you examples of high output V6 engines:

    Nissan VQ35: 306HP 3.5L V6
    Nissan VQ37: 330 HP 3.7L V6
    GM 3.6L HO: 304HP V6 with DI
    Toyota 2GR-FSE: 306HP 3.5L V6 with dual DI
    Honda: 300HP 3.5L V6

    Nobody is putting down the Charger here, however it is just not wise to argue against FACTS.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You are entitled to your opinion, however...have you driven an Azera??? Unless you have, you're offering an empty and biased opinion. Just because your car has a Mercedes platform, doesn't mean anyone can make any inferences here. It's nothing more than a platform shared with Mercedes vehicles. Does the Charger have a Merceds suspension? Is it tuned like a Mercedes? Sorry my friend, in the end...it's nothing more than a Dodge.

    If you want to believe the 3.5 is a HO, then go right ahead. There's nothing HO about that engine at all. Like I said before, my Hyundai 3.8 has more output than your 3.5 and yet...it's not an HO engine. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... :confuse:

    Again, I have not put the Charger down at all. The only thing I've said is that the V-6 is not the best...simple as that. You really must not fully read posts. I stated that the Charger is a very good move on Dodge's part style-wise. They just failed the car by putting the V-6 powerplant in it that they did. I'm sorry if you can't accept that, but it's a fact...it's Dodge's fault, not yours, not mine. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but swallow it you must.

    So please, if you want to fully understand what I'm saying about the Charger...read this.

    THE CHARGER IS A GREAT CAR FOR IT'S PRICE POINT, THE ONLY DRAWBACK IT HAS (IMO) IS THE 3.5 V-6 ENGINE. FOR THE CHARGER TO BE A PERFORMANCE BASED SEDAN, IT NEEDS MORE UMPH IN THE PERFORMANCE DEPARTMENT. GIVE IT AN ENGINE WITH BETWEEN 265-290 HP AND IT'LL COMPETE WITH EVERYTHING IN IT'S CLASS WITH EASE. OTHER THAN THAT...IT'S A CAR THAT HAS GREAT POTENTIAL.

    Is that easy enough for you to read??? The put downs came directly at your factless statements and postings based on personal feeling and emotion. No my friend, the Charger (yours or anyone elses) was never put down. If I was about putting it down, then I would have shot it down when I posted my suggestion to the earlier poster who is interested in checking both cars out. Did you see anything negative in that posting?

    Xtec...get over yourself...really!!!
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Sorry to bust your bubble, but only a few 06/07 Azeras have an issue with their front suspension, and for those with a problem, Hyundai has offered a solution. My 07 has no clunk and has a great ride, not a sports sedan feel, but a very nice city and road trip lux feel. It does not float like a Buick and is very responsive. No trouble with curves in the Mountains at any thing close to the speed limit.

    There are some Azera owners on this forum who have had issues with the front suspension. But, the vast majority have not, particularly those that have bought one since after the first of the year (mine was a Nov 06 sale). I am not into dogging a Charger, but it does not generally appeal to the same segment at the Azera in my opinion. For that reason, they are somewhat tough to compare. Whereas the Azera and Avalon are aimed at the same market.
  • keitha3keitha3 Posts: 124
    Good advice and definitely in my plans. I've driven both and preferred the Azera, but, as you say, I need to do a more prolonged testing, especially at highway speeds. One thing for sure, I like the interior layout on the Azera more. Pretty sure Hyundai is going to improve on the suspension this year as well. I think they indicated it would be a bit stiffer, which would actually be my preference.

    Going to narrow it down as much as possible, hopefully to a few cars, keep on reading/researching/test driving, then, when the time comes, look for the best deal. I already believe I can get an outstanding deal on the Azera.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    It is time for you an xtec to agree to disagree and move on. Yelling things and repeating opinions over and over aren't going to change anyone's mind and we're all kinda tired of it.

    Xtec, we are all well-aware of how you feel about your Charger. Let it go.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I actually would LOVE to see Hyundai employ and adjustable suspension. One that can be set for general highway cruising and a sportier feel for those that want a tighter feel on the road. I mean, if Hyundai wants to continue to appeal to the luxury segment, Mercedes employs the new technology of automatically adjusting suspension based on how the car is driven!!!

    One of the things I read on the upcoming '08 Azera is that the suspension is supposed to be improved. They will also be offering the in-dash nav. system as well. Considering the '08 will only be the 3rd year for the Azera, I think Hyundai has been listening to what consumers want. Now we just have to wait and see how well they actually do with it.

    The Azera is a great platform to begin with. It has only been out for a very short period of time and since it's a new model from the ground up, it's surprising that more problems weren't encountered with it. With a few tweaks here and there...I think Hyundai has a great car on their hands.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "I actually would LOVE to see Hyundai employ and adjustable suspension"

    Or.. maybe just come out with a "Touring" model like the Avalon. However, they shouldn't limit the options and interior colors like Yota. I hate the fact that the Avalon Touring only comes with black interior. I think that would bring some more buyers to the Azera.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...a touring model could be the answer, but I think an adjustable suspension would be more appealing because you wouldn't have to worry about getting tired of the ride being one way. One day you could be in the mood for a frisky, sport feel and other days you may want to just relax and have that soft, smooth cruise down the highway.

    The only thing I don't like about the interior choices on the Azera is that you can't choose if you want dark or light "wood grain" in a particular color scheme. If the darker wood had been available with the black interior...I would have gotten the black interior. The lighter "wood" just didn't look good to me against the black. The other thing I would love to see is maybe a two tone seat. I have the tan interior and I'm actually thinking about taking the car to an upholsterer and having them put a suede insert in the seats that matches the darker color that's on top of the dash. I've also been toying with the idea of of pulling all the "wood" trim pieces out and painting them a gloss black (to match the exterior), but the problem I have with that is the steering wheel. I'm not sure how durable the paint would be there since it would be handled on a daily basis.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Nissan VQ35: 306HP 3.5L V6
    Nissan VQ37: 330 HP 3.7L V6
    GM 3.6L HO: 304HP V6 with DI
    Toyota 2GR-FSE: 306HP 3.5L V6 with dual DI
    Honda: 300HP 3.5L V6


    Now THOSE are some high output V-6's!!!! :shades:
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