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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Question: Is the plural of Taurus Tauruses or Tauri? :shades:
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    And what kind of idiot would change name of #1 selling car (Taurus) to a numeric name like 500??

    Uh... name from the past! It worked for Chrysler so Ford copied it. BTW the Taurus and 500 were being produced at the same time ('05 and '06). Also, the Taurus was never a full size car. The 500 has done pretty well in the reliability department. Its biggest problem was the anemic engine and overly conservative looks. As others posters have mentioned where are you going to get over 250 HP+, decent FE, and tons of room for 21 - 22 K OTD. I'll tell you.... nowhere! The only problem is it will depreciate like crazy, but if you are keeping it over 6 - 7 years that shouldn't be as big a problem.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Stand corrected then BUT all the more reason then for Ford to be ashamed of itself, because the engine sure sounds and feels like there are some pushrods in it. It's terrible. The Mustang at least temporarily has a vehicle class all to itself, and is arguably about the only Ford product that is 'lusted' for. Many of the bigger/heavier V6 cars listed above will blow its doors off and you don't even have to wear a kidney belt doing it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the new 3.5L Duratec hooked up to the same 6-speed automatic gets 2 MPG better on the Highway, and 1 MPG better combined compared to the 2007 Five Hundred with the old 3.0L Duratec
    maybe according to the EPA but exactly the opposite of what CR found in their recent test.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I've driven plenty of GM push rod engines and they are darn durable and get relatively good mileage
    anybody over the age of 35 or 40 has likely spent a lot of time with something like the GM 3.8 - they only produced 25 million of them and maybe enough of them to iron out a few kinks. GM has historically put a ridiculous 'highway' gear in their cars so that 1) the car couldn't hold that gear on anything other than a billiard table and 2) it would do pretty well under those circumstances - highway FE. It remains a dinosaur however that has long since been surpassed in whatever criteria you might choose even by GMs own 3.6.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Oh...trust me...even though we've only been married for 7, we've been together for 12 years. I've learned how to pick my battles and when to throw the white flag up. However, I've gotten pretty good at knowing how she thinks (a lil bit). :D
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    "the new 3.5L Duratec hooked up to the same 6-speed automatic gets 2 MPG better on the Highway, and 1 MPG better combined compared to the 2007 Five Hundred with the old 3.0L Duratec"
    "maybe according to the EPA but exactly the opposite of what CR found in their recent test."

    I saw the CR report, but the car they tested must have been a lemon, or the tester was smoking something. I have a 2008 Sable that gets close to or better than the EPA of 18 around town, and I just completed a trip of over 1000 miles in the rolling hills and mountains of NC, VA and PA ( routes 77, 81, 70) where I got between 28 and 29 mpg.
    Other 2008 Taurus and Sable owners have reported similar results.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    but the car they tested must have been a lemon, or the tester was smoking something
    all FE results are relative to the driver and his/her habits - CR I believe has a set 195 mile test loop that includes some highway driving as well as 'city'. They reported 18 mpg overall where things like the Avalon got 21 and the 'relative' gas hog Azera even got 19. Don't know if the car was a 'lemon' (that might be reaching a bit) or the tester was 'smoking something' (that is reaching a bunch), but they noted specifically that while the engine now had better power that it was at the penalty of FE - relative to results those same folks got with the 3.0. High 20s on the highway, while good by most definitions, is not especially remarkable for these cars anymore
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ended up being a piece of junk Ford

    being a little hard on it? Just maybe? While I'll be the first to criticize both Ford and their engines, I also believe that there is substantial evidence that the era of 'junk Fords' has passed. The 500/Taurus has been at least 'average' in most quality/reliability ratings and the Fusion has been doing better than that. Ford's real problems are obviously financial IMO and as that effects new product development and improvement.
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    I was looking at the Edmunds "Photos and Videos" section for the 2007 ES350, and I came across this photo:

    http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/EI/2007/Lexus/2- - - - 007.lexus.es%20350.20089384-E.jpg

    The Avalon has the same engine/transmission combo as the ES350, and both cars have curb weights within 50 or 60 pounds of each other. How, then, is that particular ES350 getting 15.7 Avg MPG, according to the readout in the photo above. Even if they had timed five 1/4 mile runs, five 0-60 runs, and a few slalom runs the same day they took that photo, that's still under 3 miles of track testing.

    It takes dozens of miles, at least, before the ECU can update the Avg fuel economy and display it on the LED. If the car is averaging MPG in the 15's, you'd think they were running it around a track at high RPM all day, given the fact that owners of these cars claim average MPG in the low/mid-20's. But they're not running this car around a track to see if they can get lap times close to a sports car. It's a floaty soft luxury car, not a TL-S or Evo.

    My whole point is: Given the facts I've stated above, why should I trust this photo any less than CR, Motortrend, C&D, etc? It's easy to point out a source that happens to show numbers that we want people to see and believe. The only fuel economy numbers I take seriously anymore are the New EPA ratings. Many people have seen their real world numbers come very close to the EPA's New City/Hwy numbers.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Zero MPH?

    Yep, must be a Lexus ES... :P
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    IMO, test loop mileage figures can not be exactly duplicated. Maybe the traffic was a little heavier on a particular day, a tester may have accelerated more briskly, or caught more lights, etc. Temperature pays a large part, too - on colder days, bearing grease is thicker, the tire pressure may be a bit less; I could go on and on.
    Fact is, the only test that really compares apples to apples is the the EPA test, although I would assume that manufacturers tune/gear their vehicles to optimize mileage in that particular format.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The only fuel economy numbers I take seriously anymore are the New EPA ratings. Many people have seen their real world numbers come very close to the EPA's New City/Hwy numbers
    I perceive the problem with even the 'new and improved' EPA test that the manufacturers knowing what the test is, can rather easily optimize a car to perform well. It was certainly worse with the 70s vintage test that was done in a laboratory and really had zero real world applicability. GM has been doing this for years with the 3.8, a 'tall' highway gear that the poor ancient engine doesn't have a prayer of holding. On the other end of the spectrum , are some of the V8s, with these 'trick' DOD systems designed to shutoff some cylinders at lower 'highway' speeds that it too has no prayer of holding. Hence the reason why things like the 300C were the most overated FE wise (under the old system). It is so variable among different drivers and conditions - to me the only thing you can really trust is what you do yourself.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    hybrids were also overrated as they lost most under new epa test
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Looks like sales of Buick are significantly down they are even lower than Oldsmobile before it was sold. Like many people on this forum will agree unfortunately Lucerne doesn't offer any advantages over Japanese and even Korean brands. Opel was used to improve sales of Saturn, Holden of Pontiac. If we follow this thinking Daewoo or some other brand should be used to improve Buick. I personally hope that it will be a western European brand. Opel was used and GM cannot use Saab since it competes for the same market as GM. My opinion get rid of Saab and use it to make Buicks even in Sweden.
    Place 3.6 with DI into Lucerne and detune it to produce around 290 hp and better FE. Also Make longer wheelbase version of Lucerne as well as use 3.6 without DI on entry level Lucernes
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yep there seems to be a correlation between the amount of technology in a vehicle (fancy dan 'thinking' trannies/hybrids/variable displacement systems etc) and the differences between actual and EPA FE test performance. Toyota, which has long been a FE 'leader' for example, seems to want to 'program' their trannies to hold onto the highest gear possible even on coastdown from a higher speed, thereby reducing engine speed and increasing FE, these manufacturers that use the variable displacement can shutoff some cylinders (also increasing FE) in lower load situations (let's say a 55mph level 'cruise') but then the systems become ineffective when speeds get up to more realisitic numbers. The EPA may 'think' that 55-60 mph is how fast we all drive on the highway (and it may, indeed, be the speed limit) but who out there is not driving along at 70 or 75 just to (safely) keep up with everybody else?
    These type of things are why I don't really like the EPA numbers and prefer real driving numbers from real people even though it is true that such things do introduce a number of variables in the results as one poster pointed out. EPA numbers are good only as they are relative to each other and not any indication necessarily of what any given driver can expect because some cars will do better in the 'real world' than others- and it's been this way for almost 40 years.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    How can these people keep a straight face and say that buying a Ford Taurus (ie 500) is good decision??!!?

    The real question is how can we read the rest of your post with a straight face? Why wouldn't I recommend a car with best-in-class interior and cargo space, an engine with power and fuel economy competitive with others in the class, but at a price that, in the real world, is thousands less than the competition? For those looking for a big-car bargain, the Taurus is it.

    I just recommended someone test drive a Taurus because of its Command Seating position (the shopper is a woman under 5' tall). Guess what? I didn't even crack a smile.

    Here's one just for you, though.
    :)
    The mainstream "junk" Ford Fusion has higher reliability ratings than the number 1 and 2 sedans in the country, the Camry and Accord.

    If you haven't looked at Ford lately, look again. :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Heck, Buick doesn't even offer advantages over its own domestic competitors, Charger/300 and Taurus/Sable.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Agreed, that 500/Taurus is a good buy and fits a nice niche as a big (commodious, in fact) family car. Wife and I looked at a 500 before we bought, and liked everything except the 3.0. I think with the new engine, this car should be on shoppers' lists.

    Bias against a certain maker can cause one to miss out on a good thing. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Bias against a certain maker can cause one to miss out on a good thing.

    It sure can. Three Hondas park in my driveway, and many in the immediate family have them too (3 Accords - '96, '02, '06; 2 Civics - '97 and '07; and an Odyssey - '05, between all of us). It doesn't mean I don't look at competitors' offerings. Sure, I feel like the car I drive now was a winner from the competition, back in '05 when I got my '06 Accord, but how can I be sure it will be next time I buy a car unless I drive some of the competition?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually Grad...yours is more a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I can't blame you if you've had great experiences with Honda and the cars still appeal to you...stick with it. However, like you said...you can't ignore the competition as much as you could a few years back.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Bias against a certain maker can cause one to miss out on a good thing
    agrred - however, many of us (and possibly even this poster) will have such a bias - for a good reason - past experience. In my case, I'll never ever touch a Chrysler product ever again - even if they start selling everything they make at half price.
    All reflective of some tranny problems I had (with a truck) and their refusal to stand behind their badly designed (IMO) product.
    I have no doubt that the 'American' products are improving and although this may really be a function of older technologies they might use, or FTM that they simply spend more time building a car (more time for QC) - it should make no difference to the car buyer. He/She is entitled to the 'best' car possible for the least actual cost possible - if that happens to be a Ford product (or whoever) so be it. Just don't ever ask me to spend any of my money on a Chrysler! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It takes dozens of miles, at least, before the ECU can update the Avg fuel economy and display it on the LED.
    actually no - I checked, the Average FE displayed updates every 8 seconds, so that at the beginning of a tank it will change very rapidly (almost like an 'instanteous' display and then obviously slow down substantially later in the tank. The Av also resets its FE display EVERY tank - something I rather it didn't but also a reason for low mileage displays (something also true for the ES?). If your contention here that CR is fibbing about the way they test for FE and are instead basing their 'results' on a 3 mile test drive as opposed to the 195 mile one they claim, what could possibly be their motivation? And BTW under the conditions of acceleration & slalom testing any of these cars including a Taurus/Avalon/ES would do very well to be getting 15.7 mpg as would a Honda Civic!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    I just got back from a business trip in which I was pleasantly surprised to be handed the key (fob actually) to a brand new Maxima (SE model). I am used to getting a base Impala or something equally as dull. Anyway, I haven't driven a Maxima since '06 before I bought my Avalon. First off the interior though improved is no where near the Avalons. Its smaller and the overall feel just isn't there for me. Not that it is awful, I just feel the Avalon is nicer. As for the drive I immediately noticed that it is significantly stiffer than my Avalon. The car is much flatter in curves and the steering is great. The trans was a CVT which is just ok for me. Much better than the CVT in the Ford 500 because the VQ engine has enough power to make it work. I still would prefer a traditional 5/6 speed. One thing Nissan has improved through the tranny and computer programming (I would guess) is the torque steer issues. This car had some but not nearly as bad as prior years.

    So... the verdict? I still would pick my Avalon over the Max by a slim margin. Although the Max is a better handler it still is a big heavy FWD car that suffers from the same set of problems as my Avalon. My Avalon feels faster (probably is by a few tenths) and is quieter on the road. The CVT is just plain weird, especially went stomping on it at around 55 and the engine hits redline and just stays there. The car continues to pull strong, but you are just waiting for a shift that never happens. However, there was a manual mode and I guess I could get used to it.

    Having said all that, I am now anxiously awaiting the '09 Maxima. With more power and a much better interior it could serve as a replacement for my Av. Currently its a nice ride, built well, and there is nothing bad I can say about the VQ. Its a tick noiser than the 2 GR in my Av but at least it sounds good. Overall, MPG was a tad over 21 (per the computer) and included a mix of city/hwy driving and quite a few full throttle excursions.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Thanks, TJC. Always interested in seeing actual test drive impressions. Anyone else out there who has one, know you'll have at least one reader.

    Especially interesting to hear they've quelled the torque steer. That was always said to be the bane of that entire generation of Alt/Max's.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I found the SE Max trims to be substantially 'tighter/firmer' than any Avalon. The softer SL while adding a bit more std. bling produces a ride closer to the Av Touring but still well short of the isolation you get in the XLS/Ltd. A different demographic those 2 cars I would bet, the Maxima selling to a younger buyer?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    No doubt the Avalon still draws an older crowd. I am not sure if its just because its a big car or the price or what. The Maxima probably grabs a lot of younger people that can afford a "G" but want the extra room the Max offers.

    When I drove the Max in '06 I drove the SL model and I think you are spot on it saying that the ride compares to the Av Touring. The SE model may be a tad too firm for my tastes. However, the ride was far from jarring or harsh. I wonder if the new Max will offer two suspension options like the current model? Who knows, with Nissan going back to the "4DSC" theme they may even offer something more sporty and tightened up than the current SE.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I, for one, would hate to see a personality change on the 09 Maxima, it is not a car that can likely compete with something like an Avalon - not that it is especially good or bad - just different.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    I don't think you will. Nissan will always tend to be a little on the sportier side of things while Toyota and Honda build the more conservative vehicles. The Maxima does compete with the Avalon, but instead of saying which one might be better I think the ultimate decision will come down to driver preference.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I totally agree with you. As I wrote before, I had both Maxima and Avalon on my shopping list. Even though I still believe overall that Avalon is the best/ one of the best (if we include G8) car on this forum, Maxima met my needs in all aspects. Azera was not available at that time, but after driving / riding in one, even if it was available it did not offer me ( except for safety ), what I wanted in my car. Plus I never buy any car in its first year. Let some guys who like to pay more, spend time at the dealers fixing bugs.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Thank goodness Hyundai did not buy Jaguar. Jag is pretty and runs fast, but has very low reliability and very high repair costs. It would not help Hyundai become a really big player to saddle itself with an expensive, low volume, unreliable car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    while it is difficult to defend any British car in terms or reliability, I believe that you can point to the degree of sophistication in Jaguars (just like BMWs and MBs) as the real culprit for that checkered reliability. If there is one thing that Ford did help Jaguar do it probably is improving that reliability. Hyundai (as well as any of the other Korean mfgrs.) does not have a presence in the luxury end of things. Now they are seemingly wanting to get in that market - what better way then to call that car a Jaguar mark it up another $10 grand, and further try to insulate it from consumer reliability concerns with that infamous warranty of theirs? Win-win?
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    my thought was that they'd mostly buy the brand and its image more than the cars. For instance, the Genesis in some guise would become a Jaguar, much as the unseen parts of the VW Phaeton are now the guts of a "Bentley." It's the upmarket image of the name Hyundai needs -- not, as you aptly point out, the engineering.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    is the glass half full or half empty? The newest Ford commercials that have thrown the guantlet down and said that Ford products are equal to Toyota products in quality. Of course, that's a boost for Ford, but one heck of a knock against Toyota.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    On one of the commercials they said Honda too....No doubt Ford's quality is much better lately. I really am surprised that I am not seeing more of the new Taurus/Sable on the road. For the $$ its hard to beat.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I would agree that FoMoCo's quality is better, but equal to Toyota & Honda...that would seem a stretch. Unless they are saying that Toyota/Honda's quality is slipping a bit. I'm not sure what part of the country you're in, but here in the DC Metro area...you see plenty of Taurus cars on the road.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    I live in Southern NJ right outside Philly. I really don't see that many. More so than a few months ago, but I guess I expected more. Think early/mid 90s, they were everywhere. Heck I even had one... (or should I say I shared ownership the service department at Echelon Ford :( )

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Beauty, in some cases, in the eye of the beholder and whoever is doing the research. If FoMoCo for example is using JDP (and its variety of changeable 'made to fit' award definitions) then sure you can get me to NOT believe anything. OTH although the Fusion in particular has been doing very well and certainly the equal of the current Camry in regards to reliability - the balance of the Ford line (including the 500/Taurus) is unremarkable. Hyundai has much the same situation with the Sonata doing relatively well while the rest of the line has its worts. The problem for the Toyotas of the world is more likely that the buyer of a Toyota/Honda (and even Nissan to a lesser degree) EXPECT that superior reliability comes with the nameplate (and indeed spend more for it) , and it becomes headlines when one doesn't (like when CR makes the news for removing the Camry from its 'automatically' recommended list)- as opposed to some other manufacturers in this group that it becomes headlines when one does!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I can understand if Ford as a whole was doing that much better, but to base it on the success of t he Fusion and the Edge...that seems crazy! I can further understand if the commercial were about one vehicle, like the Fusion and they said that it equalled the quality of the Camry, but they way they are making it seem...that Ford, as a whole, rivals Toyota...as a whole. While I can say that Ford has greatly improved their products, it would be a stretch for me to cast them in the same quality "pool" with Toyota.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    just like 'comparos' that might 'hint' that a Sonata is comparable to a BMW 5 series - Ford can also make whatever claims it might want based on whatever it wants even if it is ONLY considering the Fusion - it is things like this that advertising campaigns feed on.
    I, for one, will believe Ford's claims once it shows me the same sort of reliabilties etc. LINE wide and probably as confirmed by some organization that is not in it for the money...
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    probably as confirmed by some organization that is not in it for the money...

    Does one really exist??

    On another note a colleague had a Dodge Charger rental recently with the 2.7 V6.... it had so little power that he argued with me it was a 4cyl. It just makes me wonder why on Earth they even put that engine in that car. Must be for the fleets.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    There YOU go again. Hyundai never brought quality into play when they made the comparisons they made. They made factual statements that can be backed up and proven. However, to jump out and say that your company has jump from quality obscurity to quality superiority, equal to the likes of Toyota!!! Now THAT would be the same if Hyundai had said, the Sonata offers you the performance of a 5-Series for much less...even I would laugh at that. They just said it had more ponies under the hood, which...is a factual statement (depending on which 5-Series you look at). As far as what you might imply from that...I guess it depends on if you look at the sky as being partly cloudy or partly sunny.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    if Hyundai had said, the Sonata offers you the performance of a 5-Series for much less...
    But isn't that indeed what they DID say - something about the HP/acceleration compared to a 528 if I recall correctly., not to mention other claims about interior space etc - something that would technically be true if they were comparing the BMW to a minivan! The reason I mention Hyundai's ads specifically is that they (like these Ford claims) strain any reasonable definition of creditability and really just need to be laughed at. They both could use a new advertising agency.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    They just said it had more ponies under the hood, which...is a factual statement (depending on which 5-Series you look at).

    Yeah, that a fact but a useless one just like when I say that I am taller than Chris Paul...

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No Captain...they only said the Sonata had more horsepower...that's it. Also...about interior space...again, substantiated facts. Why are you throwing a mini-van in the mix? The 5-Series is a mid-sized sedan, just as the Sonata is...therefore, comparing interior space between the two is appropriate. You've just got a hang up on the fact that Hyundai chose the BMW to compare it to!

    Hyundai used factual information in their comparisons, where as Ford is making a claim that is substantiated by what?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, that a fact but a useless one just like when I say that I am taller than Chris Paul...

    Depends on who is looking at the information. If you were a point guard in the NBA, then it would mean something. The Sonata and 528 are mid-size sedans, with a huge price gap between the two. Simply put...Hyundai simply said you can get a mid-sized sedan with more horsepower and more interior space than a 5-Series for MUCH less.

    So...since you don't play in the NBA...you're right, the information is useless. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    where as Ford is making a claim that is substantiated by what?
    possibly only by improvements in a Mexican built sedan - who knows - only their advertising agency knows for sure.
    That Hyundai should even mention a BMW anything, in any context, is a joke all by itself, is a mistake on Hyundai's part, and yes things like this are definitely a pet peeve of mine - anything (or anybody) pretending to be something it plainly isn't.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Exactly...basing something on, well...NOTHING!!!

    Here are the facts: Sonata / 528

    Curb weight: 3458 / 3505
    Horsepower: 234 / 230
    Torque: 226 / 200
    Max horsepower: 6000 / 6500 rpm
    Max torque: 3500 / 2750 rpm

    Okay...so the hp claim has been substantiated. Can it out accelerate a 528...good question. The 528 hits it's max torque quicker, but the Sonata reaches max hp quicker and has more torque, however...the Sonata is a tad bit lighter than the 528 too.

    Now...let's talk about interior space...

    Front head room: 40.1 / 37.7
    Front shoulder room: 57.4 / 57.3
    Front leg room: 43.7 / 41.5
    Rear head room: 38.2 / 37
    Rear shoulder room: 56.9 / 57.2
    Rear leg room: 37.4 / 36
    Luggage capacity: 16.3 / 14 cu. ft.

    Once again, substantiated fact that the Sonata has more interior space than the 528...hands down!

    Now...show me or tell me at what point Hyundai ever said they were trying to get one to believe that they were trying to sell something like a 528. Show me where it is said that Hyundai mentions a Soanta providing the performance of a 528. Show me where Hyundai states that the Sonata offers the driving dynamics of a 528 for much less. My friend, all that has been said is...more horsepower and more room than a 5-Series for much less. A 5-Series starts out around $44K (MSRP) and the Sonata starts out around $24K (MSRP). I guess a $20K difference DEFINITELY qualifies it as MUCH less as well.

    Hyundai isn't pretending to be anything but a company that provides consumers with value based options that actually exceed what one might think a value based product should be about. It's okay to be peeved, simply because you've been brainwashed into believing that things MUST be a certain way or follow a certain order. Like I said before, Hyundai is breaking the mold of what an auto manufacturer is supposed to be...and it's making a lot of folks nervous.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    see -Hyundai's silly ad campaigns do have their desired effect - there ARE actually folks out there that want to take it seriously.
    Hyundai seems to be doing nothing but pretending these days, whether it be a be a Veracruz, Sonata, Azera, or even the 'never to be seen' Genesis, I'm not sure that they are not pretending to be a whole lot more than what they think. Maybe what they really need to do is find out what they can about the Azera as related to a 7 series ;) or an LS etc. etc. As I said, a new advertising agency would certainly help IMO.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I can take facts seriously...especially when they are found to be true!

    Wow...on one hand you give props on the Azera, but yet...you turn around and say Hyundai is a pretender. Pray tell, just what are they pretending? Is there increased success pretend? Is the whole "bang for buck" premise pretend? Is their improved quality ratings pretend? Please, tell me what it is they are pretending to be. I've had two Hyudai vehicles in the last 6 years, I put 105K miles on one in 4 years and I have around 50K miles on my current one in 2 years...neither have given me any problems or cost me any money outside of regular maintenance. I guess I'm pretending too, huh? You're funny.

    Actually...the Azera has been rightfully compared to the likes of the Avalon and Maxima. However, the upcoming Genesis has been compared to the S-Class and 7-Series...remember? More room than either! ;) It's just eating you up and you know what...I LOVE IT!!! :D

    Oh yeah, we won't even mention the Veracruz comparo that was done against the Lexus RX...successfully I might add. Yeah...that's some serious pretending. :P
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