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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • Toyota rep authorized to replace the engine - short block. It should be shipped in 2-3 days but they out of gasket. The could not locate it in US and looks like it will be shipped from Japan. That is what I been told by service manager at my dealership. It hard to believe in that, but looks like I will be stock with a loaner for a while. They loan me Camry 4 cyl. and that is day and night with what I had.
    That is my second Avalon. My first one is '96 and still drivers as a champ for almost 12 years with 122,000 on it and I had no problem with that car at all, just regular stuff: tires, brakes. My teen daughter is driving that Avalon to school/work/around - nice car!
  • jlindhjlindh Posts: 282
    For what it's worth, the engine quit on my '97 Ford Explorer at about 1800 miles and the entire engine was replaced. I think you would deserve the same!
  • scbobscbob Posts: 167
    Toyota had severe problems with the V6 Camrys last year. Also, I have a friend who had a 2003 Camry 4 cylinder and shortly after warranty expired, plastic parts on the engine melted and Toyota agreed to give him 50% of the cost toward future service. The plastic "struts" in the sunroof broke a month later. No help at all from Toyota on that $800 job, so he traded it in on an Acura TSX.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Toyota had severe problems with the V6 Camrys last year.
    a statement without substantiation, unless of course, you know something that nobody else does. What Toyota DID have is a few 6 speed trannies (made in Japan :confuse: of all places) that got out of the factory with a badly installed snap ring which led to tranny failure in what was apparently a few hundred out of several hundred thousand built - and nothing to do with the engine at all. Additionally they have been fielding drivability complaints on both the 5 and 6 speed trannies relative to hesitation/slipping in actual operation, for which some software fix TSBs have been issued, but not a mechanical problem per se or a recall. What I believe
    to be true: that consumer complaints on the operation of the new 6 speed auto is what led CR for example to remove its 'recommendation' and not engine problems (or physical tranny problems) of any sort, from the V6 Camry models specifically . If you know something more than this please enlighten us because the current model of the Avalon (which continues to improve its better than average rating) has also been 'improved' with the 6 speed- please - before I go out and buy another one.
  • "Toyota had severe problems with the V6 Camrys last year."

    Scbob does in fact know about this.
    Do a search for sludge problems and you will find that his statement is true.

    More than 1/2 of one percent (0.5) of total production of both the V6 and the 4 cylinder engines had this problem, and in some cases, the customers got stuck with the total costs of a complete engine replacement.

    Combine that engine problem fact along with the transmission problems and you might understand why the Toyotas has been down rated.
  • "Sorry to bust your bubble, but only a few 06/07 Azeras have an issue with their front suspension"

    That statement is not correct.

    The issues were for cars produced from December 05, 2005 through 26, 2007.
    A period of over fourteen months is not what anyone would call "only a few 06/07 Azeras."
    That is unless you consider several thousand Azeras a "a few?"
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Sludge problems with the 2GR???? First I am hearing about this. Earlier 3.0 V6s did have problems. Please provide a link with reference to the 3.5 2GR engine.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • scbobscbob Posts: 167
    Sorry, I don't remember where I read it, but I did not make it up. It either came from Consumer Reports or a car magazine.
    Remember Avalon used to have much better than average reliability. So improving on (or to?) better than average is less than what it used to be.
    Jan. 2008 CR shows 83% Azera owner satisfaction vs. 80% for Avalon.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Jan. 2008 CR shows 83% Azera owner satisfaction vs. 80% for Avalon.

    If I find a model from BMW, Lexus, MB which has an owner satisfaction less than 83% does that make it a less car than Azera.

    I know why Azera generally has higher owner satisfaction but I am not going to go there...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    yep, there seems to be a lot of misinformed folks out there with long memories, but no facts relevant to what Toyota has been doing since December of 2004 (the 2GR) - at least as far as the Avalon is concerned. It must be acknowledged however, that Toyota did mishandle the whole 'sludge' issue in those old 3.0s and 3.3s back in the late 90s/early 00s - wasn't aware that the 4 has ever had the problem in the Camry or any other vehicle.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    If I find a model from BMW, Lexus, MB which has an owner satisfaction less than 83% does that make it a less car than Azera
    well put, the BMW/Lexus/MB etc. owner is going to rightfully expect more from his car because those particular cars are more (and not just from a purchase price perspective). The Azera rates highly because the owners generally expect less because they paid a whole lot less and got exactly that. And before all the Azera buffs get too excited, the same could be said to varying degrees about all the cars in this group. Our cars are not BMWs, Lexii and nor should we expect them to be....
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Okay guys, the captain said it, not me...

    :P
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    You are right. Toyota still has egg on their face from the sludge issue. I did get a letter in the mail about the class action suit regarding my 2000 Solara (3.0L). It was never an issue with me, the car was turned back in before I even got the letter. I don't recall sludging of any of the 4 cyls either.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • hjc1hjc1 Posts: 183
    Hi Captain
    Boy are you wrong..... If someone is buying a product.. I don't care what he pays for it he wants it to work. When I purchased my Azera I expected it to be free of defects and I would be just as demanding whether I payed $1 or $27,000.
    Oh...by the way 15,000 miles and NO defects. I wish I could say the same for the Toyota Solara I had before :=)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Hjc1...you're right, everyone buys a product expecting it to be defect free, but...does that mean it will be defect free? It doesn't matter if you pay $1 or $250K dollars for a car...no matter how it's built, there is a chance it can have a defect. The defect isn't my issue, my issue is how the company stands behind it when it surfaces. Now, it sure would be easy if you experienced a major defect within say...the first 30 days, that you could take it back and simply exchange it for another one like you would with something from a store. However, with the process of registration, titling and all that...it makes it more difficult to do something like that. Maybe, they should implement a 60 day temp tag and not start processing the registration and title paperwork till after the first 30 days.

    I bought my Azera and in the first week, the only defect I encountered was the clock not working properly. The only other things I've come across as defects (in 18 months) were...the hood release latch breaking, the sun roof not seating properly, the faux woodgrain chipping on the steering wheel and the faulty seatbelt sensor that kept making the airbag light come on. Now I know there are some that would have thrown a fit dealing with those things. While a slight inconvenience to me, none of them stranded me on the side of the road or made the car inoperable. So...each time, I took some time off and got it taken care of. In most cases, the car was at the dealer for about an hour and I would be on my way. Does it bother me that I had to take some time off to deal with it...nah, not really because I scheduled it on MY terms. Worst case scenario, I could drop the car off the night before and pick it up the next day when the work is done. However...I have the luxury of having 3 Hyundai dealers within 20 minutes of my home too. So I do feel bad for those that have just one dealer to turn to no matter how far they have to drive.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I don't think 100% satisfaction equals "free of defects".

    Like the captain said, a lot of people who brought a luxury car usually have higher expectations than "free of defects", they are normally pickier than say the most Azera owners.

    To be honest, 80% of the Avalon is really not that much different than 83% of the Azera, but I am pretty sure a lot of Avalon owners have higher expectations in the cars because it is the benchmark of the class. Azera owners on the other hand think it's a great value and a steal for $25K so more will be satisfy with "free of defects".

    I know a lot of these are speculation and that's why I said earlier that I don't want to start this debate. However, even though you might not be the case but you really can't speak for all Azera owners right?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The only other things I've come across as defects (in 18 months) were...the hood release latch breaking, the sun roof not seating properly, the faux woodgrain chipping on the steering wheel and the faulty seatbelt sensor that kept making the airbag light come on.

    For me that's totally unacceptable. I expect my car to be more than "none of them stranded me on the side of the road or made the car inoperable". If I am giving my satisfaction score to your Azera it'll receive a D (60%) and the only reason it is passing is because it never stranded you on the side of the road.

    I am curious what is your satisfaction score for you car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I don't know...I guess I'm just not as high strung as it seems most of the folks are when it comes to stuff like that. What I find funny is that a car is mechanical, to even conceptualize ZERO defects or problems is ludacris. Why go in expecting none, only to blow a gasket when something does happen; when you can go in with an allowance that something could possibly be defective and if a defect surfaces...it's not a big deal because you prepared yourself to handle it? I don't understand what getting upset over something you have no control over does.

    Nobody can ever own a car that never needs something fixed at some point, it's impossible. Now...whether it requires a trip to the dealer or it's something you can fix on your own...that could be different story. However, in this day and age of warranty coverage...it's most likely going to go to the dealer.

    Wow...60% satisfaction score, huh? You're pretty harsh in your judging my friend. Only 2 of those problems were mechanical and in no way related to the power train or any other major systems. At worst, peripheral issues. In my opinion...they were very minor issues (the airbag light was the most annoying of them), but...they were all taken care of quickly with a smile and no hassle.

    Personally, my satisfaction score on MY Azera would be more like 95% because I'm factoring in how I feel about the car overall. The quality, the fit and finish, the comfort and the reliability (thus far). I've had a Toyota Camry that required more major work in less time than I've owned my Azera. Let's see...replace front and rear engine seals, rebuild transmission and replace the timing belt all within a 6 month period. Of course, I had to eat the cost of all those things as the car was past it's warranty period. Aside from that...the car was great. I'm just one that realistically expects breakdowns of mechanical things...especially when it comes to cars.
  • You've got to love the passion that some people have about their cars. However, the "My car is better than your car" attitude gets old.
    Your position is much along my position, a car is mechanical, electrical, and computerized, and yet they all work pretty well now a days but to go "defect free" is probably asking an awful lot out of them. But some makes and models are better than others. I was, and still am, a solid supporter of a manufacturer for the last 18 years (6 cars total) even though my last two cars from them required, the tranny replaced after just one month in the first one, both had to be taken in for rattles in the dash, battery failed after only 18 months in the first, and other various little things done while having oil change and tires rotated. Big deal no, we still really liked the cars and would give them both probably 90+% satisfaction, and the service department was very good (very important in car satisfaction I feel). Can I compare a 30K car to a 40+K car, sure I can, I can compare anything I want to even apples to oranges, does it make sense probably not. Should these cars be be comparable, if I owned the more expensive car and many of the reviews and maybe if I am not to prideful, actually test drive the 30K and found that it was equal to or a better car, I would not be pleased. I can even compare my first car, '69 Dodge Dart, slant six, 3 on the column, black vinyl, to my current car. Now if they were even close to comparing I would really have a problem.

    I am not smarter than anyone else in this forum, I am just looking for what I perceive to be the best car for what I want to pay, not what I can afford. So with that, we are now driving an '07 Azera Limited and loving it. By the way the previous cars with the "defects" were Avalons, we thought they were great cars for the price. We shall see where this adventure takes us.
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    Re 3820: If I find a model from BMW, Lexus, MB which has an owner satisfaction less than 83% does that make it a less car than Azera.

    What do the above products have to do with "Mainstream"?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Frankly...I wasn't saying that my car is better than anyone else's. The poster felt that the few minor issues I stated having in the 18 months of ownership warranted a 60% satisfaction rating. All I did was point out my position on the matter. I agree with everything you stated and, like you, I was looking for what I perceived to be the best car for waht i wanted to pay. I too, ended up with an Azera.

    In my opinion, it takes more than a few trips back to the dealer for minor fixes to make a satisfaction rating slip way down to a 60%. A portion of the satisfaction rating is going to be based on dealer support, which I've seen how the lack of can create a serious disdain for a car, even if the car happens to be a good car.

    I do wish you the best with your Azera.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I would say owners of both Azera, Avalon (and others in the class) generally have high expectations going in. While Azera is a spanking new model (in terms of its overall life), its price range is the first legit Hyundai US model to crease past the $30K mark, and for anyone paying $30K for a model with little history will certainly come with high expectations, especially when a brand didn't have the best start in the US. In that sense, the Azera owners would normally have higher expectations than others, and owners have been rewarded.

    RE: "free of defect" Let's face it, no cars are perfect, as long as there are human contact during the building process. If some issues were to come about, even the smallest mishap, it would be a matter how tolerable someone is. In other words, it varies from one person to the next; on an individual basis, even the same problem from the same two cars can have different responses from owner A & owner B.

    I am talking about cosmestic issues, mostly. If the car brakes down, that would be another story all together :)
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    RE: 3827
    Right!
    Satisfaction does not equate to defect free.
    I would prefer to have a car that has some CORRECTABLE defects, than one which I am unhappy with due to engineering, safety, appearance or cosmetic reasons which cannot be corrected without major custom redesign or re fitting.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Just passed the one year/21,000 mile mark on my Azera and I have not had any defects. So, it is possible. Now, would I be happier if my Azera was an Audi A8L. Oh yes!!! But, something tells me it might just cost me a little more money. ;)

    My wife is getting a portable Pioneer Inno XM radio unit which includes a home and a car kit (we will use the cassette adaptor). Hope to have the mount and antenna installed by next week. I will let you know how it performs. Total cost is $116 for unit and kits and $69 installation fee (mount and antenna). It happens to be the bright pink Inno unit, but hey it will be easier to find, lol.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    What do the above products have to do with "Mainstream"?

    I don't think you are getting the point...
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    the Azera owners would normally have higher expectations than others

    Completely disagree, IMO it should be the other way around. Since Azera is the newest kid in the block and holds the "best value" title, the owners should be the easiest to satisfy.

    Avalon, on the other hand being the benchmark of the class, the owners should have higher expectation than others.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    free of defects? - of course we all expect that - I sure as heck hope so, whether it $27k spent on an Azera, $32k on an Avalon, or $70k on an Lexus LS. We can argue all day as to whether a LS, for example, is worth the extra money - but the fact is that it IS - simply because that it what they sell for new and used. And this despite a rather suspect reliability record on several of these (primarily European) engineering marvels. My point was if you are an Azera buyer you will also understand that you saved all this money and therefore will have a different set of expectations (and priorities) for a particular automobile that goes well beyond simple reliability. You are, in fact, putting any priorities you may or may not have about vehicle dynamics on the 'back burner' in exchange for saving that 30+ large when uy that Azera (or Avalon). Besides a 'badge' things like ISs/GSs/LSs/Eand S classes/5 and 7 series do offer more and the market dictates that they are worth every penny of it - whether you or I agree with that is inconsequential. Indeed I guess that my purchase of an Avalon and your purchase of the Azera would seem to indicate that we would prefer to save the bucks while understanding (I hope) that an Avalon (or Azera) is no competition for that corresponding Lexus/BMW/MB model. Reliability and/or defects any actually be lower in the lesser cars simply because the cars themselves are not nearly the technological tour de forces that higher priced cars are. Using that same logical - the Corolla should (and I think generally is) a more reliable (and defect free) than the Avalon and the same should be true with the corresponding Hyundai products. A corollary of Muphy's Law: the more complicated anything is, the more likely it is to break!
    However, a manfacturer's ability to produce anything that is reasonably reliable and defect free IS something that should be assumed by all car buyers, just like you said.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    jaymagic-
    see previous post - actually there is more likelihood that the A8L would have MORE defects than any Azera would even approach having - BUT as you note that A8 is much much more of a car objectively
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Who paid $30K for an Azera??? At best, folks are paying mid-high $20K's for them.

    There's chances for defects even if machines are building the cars, even though though the chances are lessened, but who put together the machines that build the cars??? It's all relative...the point is, nobody should buy a car with an absolute thought in their mind that nothing can go wrong with it simply because it's new, or that you paid a good amount of money for it.

    I've seen Caddies, Benzes, BMW's and other higher priced cars on the side of the road with paper tags still on them. I have owned two Hyundai cars from brand new and my satisfaction rating for both are over 90%. The first one I had for 4 years and put 105K miles on it. Only time it left me stranded was because of a mistake the dealership made when replacing a CV joint (CV boot had torn) and when they put it back together...someone forgot a nut or something. Could have been tragic, but in the end...everything was taken care of and I'm here to talk about it. Would my dissatisfaction be aimed at the car? No, not at all. Was I dissatisfied with the dealer, no....disappointment and anger was the emotion of the moment, but I gave them an opportunity to fix everything and make it right...which they did with a smile and no hassles whatsoever.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    " I have owned two Hyundai cars from brand new and my satisfaction rating for both are over 90%."

    And I have seen Hyundais and Kias on the side of the road with paper tags on them. I've also seen Lexus, Honda and Toyotas. Every car has the capacity to break down.
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