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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Captain's just got his (yes, much more expensive) Avalon on the brain.
    Yep, guilty as charged - hard not to when you drive one every day. BTW if you did some research you would find out that the Avalon is actually one of the LEAST expensive cars in this group - something about cheap now = cheap later :P
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    A 2008 model with already 20k miles on it?

    I would never buy a car like that...

    Do you know who is the previous owner? Was the car used as the dealer courtesy car before?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Considering my folks have a 2007 model with 52k miles on it that they bought brand new, they don't look at that as being a lot for a car that's probably 9 months old. It has a 6 year 100k mile warranty, so they have peace of mind about it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm guessing it is safe to assume it has a DBW throttle?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Believe so - it would be hard for any manufacturer these days to avoid it - upcoming governmental requirements for VSC, safety, as well as the fact that FE sells is making DBW a fact of life. :cry:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It's funny that someone brought up how buying used scares them. After sleeping on it, my folks have decided they really aren't too comfortable buying used after all. They're now trying to see if they can possibly get in to a new base model Taurus SEL for $20k.

    Wish us luck. If not the Taurus, it'll likely be a Civic or Accord LX.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If anyone in here has bought a Taurus this year I'd love to hear from you over on the Taurus Prices Paid and Buying Forum!!! I should have a quote here shortly from my local Ford dealer; I'll certainly share it with everyone.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    It's human nature.

    Putting 50k miles on in 2 years by yourself and 20k miles in 9 months by others are two completely different things psychologically.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That, and the fact that it was in a rental program. While a Taurus wouldn't be most people's first choice for hot-rodding, they don't know how it was treated.

    They haven't written the choice off completely, but if they can get a new basic Taurus for $20k vs. the used Taurus with Leather and the convenience package for $19k, they'll go new.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That, and the fact that it was in a rental program.

    That will be the deal breaker for me right there.

    Given on how I treated those rental cars and courtesy cars from my dealership there is no way that I'll ever consider one. :P
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    Have they driven the Sonata? It's built locally, no nasty unions, hard working Baptist assemblers (except for the robots)....
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    Given on how I treated those rental cars and courtesy cars from my dealership there is no way that I'll ever consider one.

    And I thought I was the only one that was "a little hard" on the rentals!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Dad rented a Sonata once, in 2006. Said it didn't feel all-of-a-piece. Also had power window issues. All-in-all, a so-so experience.

    An update on the car-sales:

    Latest quote: Taurus SEL, Convenience Package, Leather, Sync

    MSRP $26,615
    OTD Quote $22,000 (taxes are a little over $900)

    That's really making mom and dad happy, and they may just pay more down to get the new car well-equipped, with such a good deal.

    Another dealer offered base SEL Tauruses with no options for $20,000 + tax (amounting to near $20,900). The better-equipped one is actually the better deal. Approximately $2,300 worth of extra equipment for only $1,100 more than the base model at the competing dealership.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    MSRP $26,615
    OTD Quote $22,000 (taxes are a little over $900)


    Nothing at all to complain about with that deal IMO.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No, I was quite pleased; looked at the car tonight and confirmed the price in person. The parents are coming to Birmingham to buy the car Saturday, i believe.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    "BTW if you did some research you would find out that the Avalon is actually one of the LEAST expensive cars in this group - something about cheap now = cheap later"

    I am capable of understanding the concept of depreciation, thank you very much. Of course, if you keep your cars past 140,000 miles as I do, the numbers don't play out exactly as you suggest.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Have they driven the Sonata? It's built locally, no nasty unions, hard working Baptist assemblers (except for the robots)....

    Baptized in oil? Save the souls of those robots, please. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    if you keep your cars past 140,000 miles as I do,
    true enough - but also something that would put you in the minority amongst new car buyers.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My mom's cars tend to stay in the fold for 6 or 7 years, running well into the six figures for mileage. The Taurus should be just fine in that regard, considering how much more car they are getting vs. most other $22k cars (it was going to be an Accord LX or LX-P, or Civic, if they didn't do well on Taurus Pricing).

    Sure, resale won't be as good as a Honda, but if the car is good, I don't see them wanting to get another car anytime soon.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't see them wanting to get another car anytime soon.

    When gas hits $8/gallon?

    :sick: :sick: :sick:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Unless getting a more fuel efficient car outweighs the car payment, then no. This will mainly be a trip car anyway, so highway mileage will be what it sees. They expect 28-30mpg based on reports from owners here on Edmunds. They have the Civic for running around the island, and dad's commute to work (only 4 miles).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yeah, no kidding
    gas at $4 has people lined up for miles to get rid of those big honking SUVS that thet spent so much for just a few years back. Wouldn't want to have to be trading in a 05-06 $40k Tahoe right now!
    $8 may have us all in econoboxes, hybrids, diesels, or something equally as unexciting :cry:
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    I predict that gas will hit $3 before $8! Once the speculation factor goes away.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    hopefully, you are right. I wouldn't have thought that gas would double in such a short time either - or that I could be looking forward to 'only' paying $3 for it. Been reading a bunch of articles about how we are 'lucky' only to be paying the $4.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I was so happy to see my corner Chevron station drop to only $3.85. Isn't that sad?

    Now I can fill up my car for less than $50, as long as I do it before letting the low-fuel light come on! Whoo hoo! :cry:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Does anyone else have the Lucerne ad at the top of their page? I find it funny that that they are advertising the fuel economy of that car. 25 mpg highway? That's not competitive at all. It would be excusable with some decent power, but not in this case.

    C'mon Buick, why are you telling on yourself?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and that would be 25mpg in a car that'll give you whiplash (from all the downshifting) with the cruise set on 70 or so. Too bad too - it would really be a car worth considering - 'if it only had a heart'.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not saying this engine is great either, but the 3.9L can't come soon enough for the Lucerne.

    If they had the capacity, I wonder if Buick wouldn't just put the corporate 3.6L in there, tune it to 275hp/251lb-ft like in the Enclave, and let 'er go.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    and that would be 25mpg

    But even if FE wasn't up to snuff think of the money you'll save financing on at 0% for 6 years! ;) What more will the General do to sell cars?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Instead of an owner's manual, it'll be a book of printed money. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    not to mention be forced to follow the Korean lead and to offer an ostensibly worthless 100k warranty as bait.... What's amazing is that Ford hasn't done this yet (maybe the beancounters won't let them?)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    For awhile I remember a 5/100k warranty was offered on some if not all Ford vehicles. It is currently still competitive with most, with the normal 5/60k powertrain, 3/36k b-to-b.

    Something that all don't offer but Ford happens to (I recently learned) is free roadside assitance for a period of time.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    If Ford offered the warranty you can bet they would find a loophole of some sort not to pay anything for any repairs. Like you didn't comb your hair correctly, or the like. Sorry, but me and Ford warranty can't see eye to eye on what they have agreed to pay for. It cost me big time. I wouldn't believe them until after I saw them pay.

    van
  • jontyreesjontyrees Member Posts: 160
    2008 Limited, black on black, $21,900 + TTL Awesome deal - you should be able to get an SEL for well less than that.
  • jontyreesjontyrees Member Posts: 160
    I recently went on a weekend trip to Dallas from Austin (3.5-4 hrs each way) in an Enclave. Very nice vehicle. If the Lucerne had the same engine, I would have given it a closer look, but even then, it would have been overpriced - the 6cyl certainly is now.

    On the topic of Avalon being cheaper to own - not the case according to Edmunds. They take resale into account, and depending how much better/worse you can do on purchase price, it's possible to make heavily rebated cars really cheap to own. Another factor in my world is that my car is financed, so even if two cars both depreciated $10k in two years, the car with the lower starting price would be cheaper for me to own. I would be paying interest on a lower amount the entire time. I like Avalons, but not enough to pay significantly more than the Taurus I now enjoy. And the engine isn't THAT different, BTW. There's a lot of hype around Toyota that isn't necessarily justified. I come from London, and while Toyotas are well regarded there, they don't enjoy the same divine reputation they have here.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Your price is before TTL, mine is after.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    And the engine isn't THAT different, BTW

    Take it up to 4 or even 5,000 RPM and tell me that. Not something that you do often, however, it shows the level of refinement that the Toyota engine has. Also, its willingness to rev is outstanding. IMO the 2GR may be the best V6 out there right now.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    There's a lot of hype around Toyota that isn't necessarily justified.

    And there is a lot of hype that is very justified.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Ha-ha, not if you actually enjoy the "drive." If you don't, Toyota does everything to try and make you forget it with a quiet and soft ride. Having driven Toyotas from $17k to $30k I can say that NONE of them were fun or enjoyable to actually drive, and this includes one with the 3.5L engine.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    Having driven Toyotas from $17k to $30k I can say that NONE of them were fun or enjoyable to actually drive

    Enjoyable to drive is a subjective quality. I think that my Avalon is VERY enjoyable to drive. Smooth and quiet, power to put you back in your seat and just enough handling to have a little fun. Is it a track car? Hell no... will it understeer every time.. Yes. As for some other Yotas, have you driven a Camry SE? Just tightened up enough to enhance the handling but has a compliant ride. To each his own I guess.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I've ridden in an SE-V6 Camry, but haven't driven it. I drove an XLE V6 Camry, a previous-gen Corolla, and a Lexus SUV. The Camry was quick but the brake-pedal travel had me panicked at the first red light because the travel was so long, and I got the feel (even though it isn't true) that the car was leaning on its door-handles just pulling into the drug-store. The Corolla was just dull in general, from the buzz of the engine to the annoyingly numb steering. The Lexus wasn't handler either obviously (it was a GX470) but I didn't expect that. Unfortunately i didn't expect the jumpseats to rattle/squeak over EVERY bump, either.

    A series of marginal cars from Toyota I've driven have really turned me off of them; at least for now.

    Different strokes for different folks indeed, I know. :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Toyota does everything to try and make you forget it with a quiet and soft ride.

    MT said that the Camry SE actually has harder suspension than Accord. Go figure...
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    My parents have an SE... its definately taught. The difference from an LE/XLE is even more than say an XL/XLS/Limited Avalon to a Touring.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    A series of marginal cars from Toyota I've driven have really turned me off of them; at least for now.

    Maybe that's because you aren't driving the right ones. Sounds to me like you are putting down your own judgment regarding "fun to drive" on Toyota based on the Camry (luxurious and soft model), Corolla and a SUV? Good god...

    Here are some of the models you should try and see if Toyota is indeed that "dull":

    Scion tC (you'd be surprised)
    Camry SE V6
    FJ Cruiser (take it off road)
    IS250 with manual tranny (if you are into shift-yourself)
    IS350
    IS F (this is a must)
    All the Toyota/Lexus hybrid models (a different kind of "fun to drive")
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Here are some of the models you should try and see if Toyota is indeed that "dull":

    Scion tC (you'd be surprised)
    Camry SE V6
    FJ Cruiser (take it off road)
    IS250 with manual tranny (if you are into shift-yourself)
    IS350
    IS F (this is a must)
    All the Toyota/Lexus hybrid models (a different kind of "fun to drive")


    Can't fit in the IS Lexus, so that's out. (I'm 6'5")

    Now you're down to the Camry SE-V6, which I would like to drive (but the person who owned the car I rode in I happen to work for, so I didn't ask :)).

    FJ Cruiser? No need for off-road driving; I want on-road fun without too much of a mileage penalty, anyway.

    Scion tC? I'm glad you reminded me of that one; I looked at it when I was 17, and thought it had been over-hyped (at the time). I'm not the only one, several reviews have cited the lack of fun and the numb steering. Just a forgettable car.

    Sounds to me like you are putting down your own judgment regarding "fun to drive" on Toyota based on the Camry (luxurious and soft model), Corolla and a SUV? Good god...

    Why is that a problem?

    I certainly am, although I explicitly said I didn't expect the SUV to be fun to drive, I was just commenting that the quality seemed lacking with squeaks/rattles in a LEXUS. My driving-fun statement is based on my Corolla/Camry experiences.

    I've driven Camry and Corolla competitors that are lots of fun (Accord, Civic, any Mazda). Toyota could do it too, they just don't. They appeal to a different customer, so that's fine with me. But yes, I am whole-heartedly judging Toyota's fun-factor on its bread-and-butter cars just like I do with the other companies, because those are the ones I'll buy for myself. Now that I think about it, the Camry I drove was a V6, but I think it was the LE V6 (more in my price range anyway). It didn't have leather, that was the SE-V6 in which I only got to ride.

    Anyway, not one of these cars is on topic, so I'll try and guide us back. :)

    My folks are planning on purchasing their new car on Saturday. It is a brand new 2008 Taurus, Silver Birch over Stone Leather, the convenience package (Dual Auto Climate Controls, Auto Headlamps, 6CD Upgraded Sound System, Sirius Sat Radio), and Sync. Out-the-door will be $22k. They're pretty excited about the deal, as this was the first offer I received via internet from my local dealer. It's worth them coming home for, since their dealer on the coast wouldn't come below $24k OTD.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Can't fit in the IS Lexus, so that's out. (I'm 6'5")

    No one is telling you to live with it but since you are talking about "fun to drive" how can you not try the brand's sportiest models (IS F and IS350) before slap a DULL sign on it face? :confuse:

    I am 6'1" with super long thighs (almost 1/3 of my total height) and my seat isn't all the way back yet. I am sure you'll be fine driving it (again, not live with it) with the seat all the way back.

    Oh by the way, if Jeremy Clarkson can fit in an IS then you can too...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I am sure you'll be fine driving it (again, not live with it) with the seat all the way back.

    Attempted it at the car-show - wasn't a fit for me. TRUST ME.

    Oh by the way, if Jeremy Clarkson can fit in an IS then you can too...

    Um, no, I can't. :mad: :cry:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and you can check Intellichoice as well. Both the Ford and the Impala will rank very close to the Toyota despite the Toyota's initial cost hit of (at least) $4 or $5k, these 'cost-to-own' stats generally assumming a 5 year time span. Both Edmunds or Intellichoice could not know at any given time what lengths a specific manufacturer has to go thru to sell cars and therefore as you note can not guesstimate rebates/financing deals that might effect that TCO.
    BUT, if a $28k Taurus starts selling for $21k (or whatever) it is also true that those folks that bought the car for more than that are gonna take a hit on their resale values, minimizing the effect of those rebates on the 'cost-to own'. On the other side of the coin, if the Toyota (in this case) continues to sell well at some number closer to window sticker, it makes for a stable vehicle value now and later and likely a lower cost to own. Simple economics and not rocket science - but as a rule: cheap now = cheap later - and vice versa
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Toyota has one entry in this category. Let's stick to it in this topic.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Indeed. The way we're looking at it is that we're getting a lot more car (a comparable Toyota would have been over $30k, and as you say, they don't come much from sticker) for the money in the first place. If the resale value down the road is worth $8,000 less than the Avalon's, then they've laid out less up front, have had more cash to play with and invest, and still had a car that they don't feel like they've "settled" for in the least. $30k wasn't in the budget; heck, $25k wasn't either since they have no trade-in. This ruled out the more expensive up-front models, meaning to go with an import they'd have to come down in size and features (think Accord LX with hubcaps, or similar) to get a similar price to the Taurus with Leather and options.

    I see what you're saying, I'm just explaining why that didn't necessarily work here. It wasn't an option.

    I was curious and did a TCO of the Avalon XL and Taurus SEL - here's what I came up with. After five years:


    Depreciation $14,828
    Financing $4,488
    Insurance $8,689
    Taxes & Fees $3,650
    Fuel $12,938
    Maintenance $3,976
    Repairs $665

    TOTAL
    $49,234

    For the Taurus, 5 years:

    Depreciation $14,519
    Financing $4,047
    Insurance $6,805
    Taxes & Fees $3,305
    Fuel $13,251
    Maintenance $3,214
    Repairs $794

    TOTAL
    $45,935


    So, based on our friend the captain's little tool, the TCO here on Edmunds, the Taurus is cheaper to own over 5 years to the tune of about $3,300. Something my parents noticed was the fact that insurance on the Taurus is insanely cheap. That is reflected here as well.

    EDIT: Sorry Pat, hopefully this post is back on track. :)
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