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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I doubt it would be hard to modify the more modern engines to E85, though.
    Exactly, a s/s gas tank and changed out fuel system pieces hoses, gaskets etc.), slighty modified engine computers. 2 things that not too many people know - the Ford Model T was one of the first 'flex fuel' vehicles - that way so farmers could 'brew' their own fuel at a time when we didn't have a gas station on every corner, and our erstwhile government in its PC effort to encourage E85 development only counts the 15% dino fuel consumed in FE calculations leaving us with things like 35 mpg pick up trucks and 50mpg sedans as least as far as CAFE is concerned - the opposite being true of course - that 15mpg truck might get closer to 10 mpg on E85, which actually costs about 50 cents/gallon more than regular after you consider that subsidy that we all pay for. It's a crock like many of those other things that our politicians know nothing about... ;)
  • In my opinion:
    The fact of the matter re automotive warrantee is: regardless of the manufacturer or whoever, almost every engine made today will far exceed any of the "limits" placed on them. They will, with care, all pass more than 150,000 mi without any major problems so all of the "imaginations" involved are rather moot. The wool has been pulled over the eyes of the public for so long, that we all expect more for nothing. Take whatever you have, care for it..and the chances are you will be able to "run the wheels off it", and it will generally last longer than 10-20 yrs. Of course, if you don't care for it, then you know what the results are going to be. We may discuss all sorts of why's and how's but we will never fully understand the totality of the matter, so have share info and ideas, but don't go "bananas" if someone disagrees. (Not to anyone in particular)
    van
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    No captain...it is so good that they are willing to stand behind it as long as the orginal owner keeps it. In most cases...Mopar is counting on the car being traded or sold after 3-5 years, so the number of cars they'll have to back due to orginal owners holding on to them will be small.

    The extended warranty does two things...it creates peace of mind in the buyer and it forces the manufacturer to step up and create a quality product to avoid losing the shirts of their backs.

    Come on Captain, I know you really want to believe it's a gimmick, but it does have substance behind it as well. Just because Toyota & Honda don't offer them...it has to be a gimmick. If they started offering long warranties, would you still think it to be a gimmick? It's just like homeowner's insurance...you may never, ever..EVER need to make a claim the entire time you live in house, but it's nice to know that SHOULD an event ever come up that would require it...it's there for you, right? But I guess homeowner's insurance is a gimmick too, huh?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Come on Captain, I know you really want to believe it's a gimmick,
    Nope, I KNOW what many of these mfgrs. are doing in order to sell cars. The gimmick part only comes in when you also find out that these warranties, by design, are used less than you would think.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Based on the statement you just made...that would mean the car is good enough that it doesn't NEED the warranty, right?

    You just summed it up. They offer the warranty (at no extra cost to the buyer) and it's not even used as much as one would think. Why? Because the cars are better than perceived. The manufacturers know what they are doing. If their cars were that bad...they wouldn't offer anything like that because they know they would have cars coming in being repaired under warranty left and right. However...it is offered as peace of mind for the buyer. Simple as that!

    You've simply been brainwashed to believe that if the other companies don't do it like Honda & Toyota then they are inferior. Before you know it, Hyundai will be just as good as Honda & Toyota and STILL offering their warranty, so not only will they be just as good, they'll STILL be offering more. Then what can you say?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    regardless of the manufacturer or whoever, almost every engine made today will far exceed any of the "limits" placed on them. They will, with care, all pass more than 150,000 mi
    this - I'll bite on - I agree, although the 150k may be a little long, keep in mind that at 150k most vehicles are 7-10 years old.. And lends further support to that whole 'gimmick' idea, the mfgr. won't honor that warranty if you don't do that (comply strictlyt to maintainence schedules) or if you don't happen to be the original owner of the vehicle, knowing, of course, that almost everbody that has a higher mileage vehicle is not likely the original owner.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    again you are missing the point, the length of any warranty has absolutely NOTHING to do with a vehicle's quality - in fact, the only thing that it may have anything to do with is a given mfgr's history of producing cars that haven't been so good. My God, just look at who offers these things and who doesn't!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...isn't that the whole point...if you want the warranty to be validated, there is something you have to do as a consumer. I mean...they're not just gonna turn the car over to you and expect you to treat it like crap and then at the first sign of trouble, expect them to fix it free of charge.

    If anyone wants a car to last anyway, they should have some sort of maitenance schedule that they adhere to. Most warranties don't require "strict" adherances anyway...it's the servicing dealer that usually gives you the hard time. So having a good service deparment as well as having a good rapport with them further aids anyone in hassle-free warranty covered repairs.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    PS: and its not that the Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans of the world are necessarily any better built than those GM or Korean cars - it is simply that they don't NEED to placate the buyer with some sort of assurances in order to sell them.Whether they actually are built better is not the point, sales numbers tell you that the carbuyers THINK they are.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay Captain, you go ahead and stick with your Toyota-logic and enjoy your 3/36 5/60 warranties. I'll definitely enjoy the benefits of knowing that when I've gone past 60K miles, I STILL don't have to worry about a major repair on my Hyundai product, why...because it'll still be covered under warranty.

    Here's some logic for you. A shorter warranty is a gimmick too. Toyota & Honda figure if they keep the warranty period short, then folks will want to trade in for a newer vehicle before the warranty period is up on their current car. Around here...there's a Toyota commercial that says, "Great new cars make great used cars." There sure are a lot of used Toyotas and Hondas on the used car lots in this area. Don't get me wrong, there are quite a few folks that hold on to a Toyota or Honda, but even more would do so if they had longer warranty period. Can't be mad at their gimmick of making folks buy new ones though. I will say this, a shorter warranty is great for those that like to upgrade every few years anway...it's not even an issue.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Like I said, in most cases...the sales numbers are based on those cars that are being traded in for a new model before the warranty is up on the current one. I bet you...if they offered longer warranty periods...their sales would take a dip because folks would be even MORE inclined to hold on to them.

    Let me clear one thing up as well. The longer warrany really caters to those of us (such as myself) that put a lot of miles on a car in a year. I mean...if Hyundai had a typical 3/36 warranty when I had my Sonata...my warranty would have been up after the 1st year. I benefitted from almost every mile of that warranty because when I traded it in, it had 105K miles on it (still had 15K miles left). The longer warranty will also cater to those of us that like holding on to a car and don't necessarily put a lot of miles on in a year either. So...if the car is 7 years old with 50-70K miles...it's nice to know that should any major issues come up...it's covered.

    For those that don't drive a lot AND like to upgrade every few years....yes, an extended warranty is a moot issue. But, like I said earlier...if Toyota, Honda & Nissan offered one...you would see more folks holding on to them even longer, rather than trading them in to get a new model for the sake of having a car that's under warranty.

    I've got a buddy now that has the Infiniti QX54 he bought used. It has the remainder of the factory warranty on it, but he's considering trading it in and getting a newer model so he'll have a warranty, or purchasing an extended warranty to cover his current one. Either way...warranty is an issue for him and this is an Infiniti we're talking about!!!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well past the 60k already, never been back to the dealer except for an oil leak problem (an Avalon TSB) and fully expect it to continue for some time to come. I will hope that you don't have to use that warranty of yours as you get up to the 70k on my silly Toyota, or FTM the 90k on my wife's 03 Altima 3.5 - a car that suffers from the same 'problem' - never been in the shop. Not worried about that one either. ;) Both cars are only doing as they should.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Like I said...there are some that will hold on to them, but a lot get rid of them and upgrade to a newer model.

    If you're one to take care of your vehicles, you shouldn't have any problems at all. However...dealing with anything mechanical, one should always expect the unexpected. I'm already past 40K and I keep up with my maintenance...I truly doubt if I will have to put my car in the shop for anything. My previous Sonata was a good indicator of how reliable the Hyundai product can be when taken care of properly.

    However, I do hope that you don't have a major component issue with either of your cars since you would no longer be covered by the warranty, it becomes an out of pocket expense that will dig deep since you are dealing with the likes of Toyota and Nissan. Good luck! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    The longer warrany really caters to those of us (such as myself) that put a lot of miles on a car in a year
    this I can't go along with:: cars, I think are as likely to have age related problems as mileage related, because high mileage cars tend to be the ones that get a disportionate number of those 'easy' highway miles.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....if that were only true in my case. I live in the DC Metro area, I would say that my mileage is split down the middle between city driving and highway driving. Regardless of how the miles are put on, the mileage becomes the issue because then you ring up miles before the years come into play. Like my Sonata...if you want by time, it still had 6 years of warranty left, but I put 105K on it in 4.

    There was two warranty repairs that came up on that car and both were after 60K miles. One was a sensor on the Shiftronic that wasn't allowing me to downshift manually and the other was a busted power steering hose. Had that been a Toyota, Honda or Nissan...I would have paid out the nose to get those items fixed. Because it was a Hyundai, covered under warranty...I paid nothing more than an hour of my time at the dealership while they fixed them.

    Whether the miles are easy or hard...they are miles. A warranty doesn't discriminate.
  • Before you know it , they will quietly discontinue advertising or offering it to new customers
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    it would seem to me that a 'busted' power steering hose would not have been covered under your warranty as I wouldn't regard it as a 'drivetrain' issue, the tranny sensor maybe - but in either case sorry that you had those kind of problems because to me, the inconveniences of having a car in the shop is as aggravating as the necessity of the repair itself! :cry:
    Down here in Texas BTW we measure distances in 6 packs, folks can 'commute' 200 miles/day, and things like 100k come up in a real hurry while not creating a whole lot of 'wear and tear' on a car.. Want to find a number of 'brand new' Azeras with 100k miles on them - c'mon down.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    a logical thing for them to do, once they decide they can sell them anyway. ;)
  • Before you know it , they will quietly discontinue advertising or offering it to new customers

    Don't think so. Hyundai announced late last year that the 10/100 warranty was extended through at least 2010.

    10/100 Warranty good through 2010

    ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai announced late last year that the 10/100 warranty
    they will logically continue to do it until they figure out that the costs of honoring such warranties are more than the extra profits from selling more cars. Unfortunately, for Hyundai, the Azera/Sonatas are not quite in high enough demand - yet. OR, the Korean governement is subsidizing them (they have been known to do that) so simple rules of economics don't apply, they simply have their sights set on that market share that the American mfgrs. seem intent on giving them..
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Posts: 124
    If I were to buy a Lucerne it would be the CXS with the Northstar V8 as I think many of us would if gas prices were lower - the point is -why should we have to? - just put a 'competitive' V6 in the thing in the first place

    I have read that this will be the last year for the 3800 so they will probably get the more modern V6 in 2009. I was not particularly defending the old engine, just have never understood the current hate thrown at it. As far as the V8 goes, some of us just like that sort of understated power and the CXS also has far better handling (magnetic shocks and steering) and I never read about any transmission issues.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    read that as well and it's about time - even the 3.9 that's used in the Impala would be a better choice even if it is almost as antiquated as the 3.8. It does, however make more sense to use the 3.6 HF engine, as Buick already has it in the LaCrosse and Enclave - and they don't make very many different vehicles any more, anyway. Here's hoping - more and better choices...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Oh...did I mention, I paid the $1100 to have ALL the other warranties bumped up to match the 10yr/100k mile powertrain warranty. However, because of the horsepower snafu Hyundai had, my powertrain warranty was bumped up to 12yr/120K miles. :blush:

    At any rate, I didn't think it would have been covered as well, but I took the car to them, they told me what was wrong and next thing I know...they came out handing me the key and telling me to have a nice day.

    I wasn't sorry...neither issue stranded me and in both cases...they were taken care of without worry or hassle and I was on my merry way. A good service department can make ownership so much more pleasurable. I can imagine how quickly the mileage piles on in a state like TX!!! However, with the high temps you deal with in the summer...even the highway miles are hard miles!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I was not particularly defending the old engine, just have never understood the current hate thrown at it.

    I don't think it is hate of the engine. It is disappointment in GM for not putting it to pasture before it overstayed its welcome. It is simply not competitive in this century. Competition requires you to actually compete, something that Buick is pretty much stubbornly not doing. If it were my money, and I wanted a stately American sedan with premium features, I'd look at a Taurus/Sable long before Buick. The Americans used to be behind, but even Chrysler offers the 3.5L 250hp V6 to go along with Ford's 3.5L 263hp. Buick, if they aren't careful, is not only going to be late to the party, but miss it altogether, like its Oldsmobile cousins.

    Putting the 3.6L engine in the Lucerne would render the current Northstar V8 pretty obsolete, much like the 302hp STS and the 320hp STS V8. Not many people are going to pay much more for a very small gain in horsepower.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Actually...for them to jump out there and extend the program would indicate that the cost ISN'T eating into profits as you might think and that the cars are doing better in the area of reliability and durability than folks want to give them credit for.

    It seems they have their sights set and their claws firmly grasped around the market share and not only are they going to take what is given to them...they're gonna mess around and take more than folks expect. Whatch!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and I never read about any transmission issues
    and nor are you likely to - that 4 speed auto. being almost as old as those 3.8s (actually I think when the first 3.8s were built as a Buick 231 the 2 speed Powerglide (or Dynaflow?) were the trannies of the day) . It would be the new 6 speed that has been creating some problems for GM - as it has for many others - including you know who. Since the Avalon and Azera seem to have been our topics 'du jour' , both these cars have benn noted to suffer from some delayed shifting/slipping problems. I contend this an uinfortunate byproduct of these new high tech, DBW, multi speed, electronically controlled trannies. The 'price' of progress, if you will, that I don't like to pay, except when I fill my Avalon up and the trip computer says 27 mpg for that tank..
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Since when has the Azera been plagued with any delayed shifting/slipping problems? The Azera uses a 5-speed tranny...not a 6. The upcoming Genesis (in V-8 form) is slated to carry the 6-speed Aisin tranny in. I don't know if it'll keep the 6-speed for the V-6 variants...I'm think the 6's will get the 5-speed like in the Azera. The only problem the Azera experienced was the wide open throttle body shift from 1st to 2nd and that was corrected with a tranny re-program TSB. That problem hasn't resurfaced since.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    or conversely that whatever sales (and profits from those sales) that they lose because they don't offer the warranty is more than compensated for in the fact that they have that many cars fewer to service.

    Happen to agree with you BTW on the market share comment. IMO they (Hyundai) do offer a better product than those companies whose market share they are 'stealing', that perhaps a bad word because it sure seems like they deserve it. Used to think that the Avalon was the ultimate Buick, now I think that title has passed to the Azera.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Weeeeelllllllll....as big a fan as I am of Hyundai, and as much as I would like to see their products receive the respect that Toyota and Honda products do. There's still a few things they need to work on. They are, however, well on their way. Avalon is still the ultimate Buick with the Azera being a very good alternate. Maybe the '08 Azera can take that model over the top and put in the same class as the Avalon. I mean, finally getting in-dash nav and improved suspension, but...lacking adaptive cruise, smart key/push-button starting, HID headlights and cooling seats. If they can throw those things in there, better the FE and continue to show consistent reliability...the Azera will definitely be worthy of being on the podium with the Avalon.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and the Avalon also had a 5 speed originally, also had more than a few complaints on its operation, and since also has been 'fixed' by a reprogramming TSB for those of us that wanted it 'fixed' or even thought it was bothersome. And the problem with the Avalon incidentally kind of similar issue , hard throttle reapplication especially after coastdown from a higher speed. and a 1-2 second delay in the tranny finding the appropriate lower gear. Sound a little like the Azera having a little trouble finding second gear with the throttle wide open? A very good friend of mine had the same problem with his Subaru Forester that has a 4 speed - the dealer's explanantion ' oh, it's these new electronic 'learning' transmissions' - this before the Subaru was TSB'ed.
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