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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well, I'm well short of calling any Marauder a 'sports' sedan - but to answer your question. The GM has perhaps the sloppiest suspension that has ever existed while the Marauder was 'tightened' up substantially (didn't it only last a year or two anyway?).
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    but that doesn't mean the car isn't worth $55K
    what anything is worth is exactly what it sells for - a new Azera Ltd. is worth $27k because you can buy one for that, the Avalon XLS $35k, and yes even that 535 for $55k. What remains is simply a question of whether you appreciate what that extra money buys you - and it may be more than the superior engineering that happens to go into such things.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The Marauder is as much of a sports sedan as I am to a NBA player...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    louis - if wei would be your last name - it has been proven that Oriental folks can get all the way up to 7'6". So maybe you could be a NBA player and the Marauder was/is a 'sports sedan' ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "The GM has perhaps the sloppiest suspension that has ever existed"

    I'd give that title to a mid 90s Buick Century myself. The newer GM isn't all that bad, stiffer than it used to be, and rack-n-pinion steering gives it a decent feel on the road. I would say at its limits isn't that much different than what my Av will do.

    The Maurauder wasn't that different a suspension setup than the police unit CVs get. Point taken though, it wasn't a sports sedan any more than when Chevy did the same thing with the Caprice turned Impala SS.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Well, cap, I am 6'1" and 190 lbs, pretty sure that's not even small using the Western standard so nevertheless compare to other Asians. However, that further proves the point about how much a sports sedan the Marauder is...
  • 'And because the VeraCruz has better skidpad it's a better vehicle than the RX350 for $8K less or so? Yes, I would like to see Hyundai sell the equivalent $55K 550i for $40K. Not gonna happen.'

    -You completely blew it with your reading comprehension on what I posted. I said that there is no doubt that this behemonth could build a $55k sedan that would stand up to 5-series. I never said Hyundai could build a $55ker for $40. Also Hyundai doesn't build those and neither does Bimmer build $20k sedans but they could. They know how and if they did it would definitely compete

    -You completely refused to read my post on the RX/Veracruz comparison. Go drive an RX(I have) and a Veracruz(I have) and research the facts. The Veracruz beats the RX in skidpad, beats it NVH properties(it is quieter), has an equally smooth drivetrain, exceeds it in fuel mileage on regular fuel, and nearly equals it in acceleration and braking. So we are talking about vehicles that are both very good vehicles, vehicles that perform equally and the whole aesthetic appeal is subjective so you take the badges off and hand someone $8k and tell them they get the Veracruz and you have a happy non-badged Veracruz owner and a Lexus owner with less room and $8k less money in their hand.
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    #4222: "Oriental folks"

    Asian is the correct terminology. I believe "oriental' is considered a slur today.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,184
    I grow tire of PC folks correcting others. Let's let the hosts handle those kinds of things, if they are needed.
  • AWD may not really be necessary on the Genesis considering the weight distribution is 57/43.
    57/43 is a pretty poor weight distribution for a RWD car. The Charger R/T which you stated as being unruly in RWD configuration is about 55/45 and even the low tech Mustang GT is 54/46. More expensive RWD cars approach 50/50.
    Part of the high-performance RWD lure is getting the back end loose with the Traction/Stability Control turned off. Leave it on for normal driving, and the car is safe and manageable as long as you have decent tires and respect the power.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    "what anything is worth is exactly what it sells for "

    Is THAT right? LMAO Funny...you pay $35K for and then as soon as you drive it off the lot, it depreciates 15-20%. Is it REALLY worth what you pay for it??? A car is WORTH what it costs to build it, and even that's a stretch!

    Superior engineering and yet...BMW has taken a dip reliability rankings as of late. Superior engineering would mean that wouldn't happen because, well...the engineering is superior, right? Oh wait, Toyota is supposed to have superior engineering and yet...they've been facing some quality issues as well. Are you really paying for superior engineering???

    JVC...a company known for cutting edge technology, but compared to the likes of Kenwood, Sony and Pioneer...costs a bit less, why? Their engineering is top notch, R&D is up there too...the difference is...ADVERTISING!!!! Consumers pay for these companies to advertise. The only time you see JVC ads is at jazz festivals, sporting events and in some magazines. You don't see any commercials. That is where they save the consumer money.

    Keep on thinking you're paying for SUPERIOR engineering, if that's what helps you sleep at night. Between a Genesis and a 550i, I'll save myself $20K+, get a brand spankin new Genesis AND take a SWEET vacation and have money left over to boot! Not to mention, I'll be able to fill up with regular gas vs. premium in the 550i too! :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    That being the case...then maybe AWD would be a viable option. Funny how folks think it isn't and yet, two of the best handling mini-sports cars are the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo and the Subaru WRX. And please, don't say the exotics don't employ AWD...even the Lambo Murcielago is AWD.

    I say just make the AWD function something that can be turned off when you really want to get sporty, since most sport car enthusiast want the ability to break the back end loose. Some actually don't and love a car that can stick to the road like glue and take corners like a train on rails. Either way, I think a defeatable AWD would please the masses and still make the car safer when it comes to driving in rain/snow.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I guess you missed the point of that question, which...you usually do. I understand you just like to see things the way you like to see them. However...the world doesn't revolve around your views and opinions (nor mine for that matter).

    I asked the question about the Marauder vs. the Grand Marquis tongue-in-cheek. The reality is...the Marauder was put out as a "sports" sedan, but it certainly isn't much different than a Grand Marquis...other than more hp, tighter suspension...oh, wait a minute...it's a Grand Marquis with a Crown Vic police package!!! It's RWD, plenty of power, tighter suspension...it MUST be a sports sedan then!!!

    As much as you don't want to accept it, the reality is...sports sedans come in many sizes, shapes and drive train variations. You don't have to like it, and from the tone of your postings...you don't. However...you can't change what already is. I didn't do it, blame it on the auto industry.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    So...why is it that a Mercury Marauder can be a sports sedan, but a Grand Marquis can't? and then later
    I asked the question about the Marauder vs. the Grand Marquis tongue-in-cheek
    well, how am I supposed to interpret then you original post which was anything but 'tongue in cheek' . You seem to be of the school that would have me believe that an Azera (or Avalon or Maxima etc) are sports sedans simply because they have enough power to get out of their own way., and you would seemingly contend that by driving your Azera 'differently' (your post 4207) that you might be able to extract the same sort of performance from it that you would with that $55k car. A new definition of reality I guess. Give me a break - that is a misrepresentation of now only the Azera's dynamic capabilties ( and the other cars in this group) - which are all closer to that Grand Marquis than they are to that BMW.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Think about it Captain...you state that a true sports sedan must be RWD, right? Okay...I mentioned the Marauder because it was marketed as a sports sedan. Like I said earlier...a Grand Marquis with the Crown Vic police package. According to YOUR point of view, it MUST be a sports sedan as it has the power and the tigher suspension, right? Well...the mention of the Grand Marquis was made to imply that since it has the softer suspension and less power, it can't be a sports sedan by your definition. The Marauder still has the same body and looks nothing like a desirable sports sedan and yet...it is, because it meets the criteria YOU established.

    Captain...you obviously have not read previous postings where I have stated that the Azera is NOT a sports sedan, nor is the Avalon. The Maxima...well, I'm not the one saying it's a sports sedan, but it is.

    If my Azera had a sport tuned suspension, then yes...it could be a sports sedan as it has the hp and the ability to even be shifted manually as well.

    You, my friend have taken what I said and turned it into something else. I have at no time EVER said that the Azera is a sports sedan. Since when have you ever seen me post anything about comparing the performance of my Azera to that of a $55K car??? I think you're getting your postings mixed up. My comparisons have been between the Genesis and the 550i...and yeah, I think I can spend $37K and get a car that will perform like a $55K one.

    P.S. The Grand Marquis can't hold a candle to the Azera.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    didn't know that the Genesis weight dist. was as BAD as 57/43 - assume that that's what it is with the V8, and the V6 may be a tad better. If you remember the way old days when Ford and Pontiac (Mustang/Falcon, GTO/Tempest) , took underpowered, poorly engineered 'compacts' and shoehorned in big ole V8s and called them 'sports cars' - what a joke - and largely because they were 60% (or so) front weight biased ,understeering handfuls, with poor brakes, that also required some special care/abilities when driving them on the 'slipperies'. Drive a vintage Mustang today and you'll wonder who in their right mind would've bought the thing.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    as I have also said - being RWD is not the only qualification either , although it sure as heck helps with that weight dist. problem as well as those dynamic problems created when the same wheels that are powering a vehicle as also turning it.

    you admit to your Azera not being a sports sedan but then you turn around and say:
    If my Azera had a sport tuned suspension, then yes...it could be a sports sedan as it has the hp and the ability to even be shifted manually as well So therefore, my Aavlon Touring which does have the power, the 'sports' shifter, and the tightened up suspension must be a 'sports' sedan? Not by a long shot!
    IMO I don't care what they do to an Azera/Avalon/Maxima but you are never going to get any of those cars to approach the neutral dynamics of something like a 535 etc. We have talked about this before but the best example of an attempt to 'redefine' the 'sports sedan' in a FWD platform might just be the TL - a very fine car that (again IMO) falls short of achieving what BMW (and others) do, for example.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    PS - obviously agree with you - the Grand Marquis doesn't hold a candle to any of the cars in this group as even that 200hp V6ed Lucerne would be preferable, IMO.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Superior engineering and yet...BMW has taken a dip reliability rankings as of late"

    What has this got to do with anything? The latest CR has (3,5,7) and other models recommended. Lexus has superior engineering over Hyundai and they have made mistakes.

    Keep on thinking you aren't paying for superior engineering. Go test drive some cars back to back. It's possible you won't be able to tell the difference, but it has nothing to do with the cars. :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yes...because of the tuning the the suspension...the Azera can't be a sports sedan as it can't handle as a sports car should. Tighten up the suspension with a true sport tuned suspension, then yes...the Azera COULD be a sports sedan. However, the reality is...it's a highway cruiser.

    The Avalon has a tighter suspension than an Azera, but it's not as tight as that found on the Maxima, so no...I would not go so far as to call your Avalon a sports sedan...again, like my Azera...a nice highway cruiser...as it was intended for by design.

    I never said that any of these cars would approach the neutral dyanamics of higher priced sport sedans. I have only said and still say...that you can have a FWD sport sedan...this is the point you contend. Again, READ what I say so you get it word for word.

    IF...you put a sport tuned suspension on the Azera (or even the Avalon for that matter), you could make them sport sedans as that is the main thing lacking by those two cars. Well...maybe better side bolstering in the front seats to keep you in place for handling aggressive cornering. The only difference is...you won't drive them the same way as you would a BMW or any other RWD sport sedan. However, that's not to say that a FWD sport sedan can't be pushed as hard as a RWD sport sedan...it just takes the skill to do it.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    allmet -- theTouring happens to be significantly tighter than the other trims, to quote that summer of '05 sedan comparo in C&D -

    The Avalon has abandoned its "Japanese Buick" spot for a position in the Sports Dept.

    and you know what, this is not the case,
    as kdshapiro notes you would have to drive and/or own something like that Bimmer to truly undertstand what the difference is - and this despite the fact that my Avalon would show its tailights to the then current 530 - but only in a drag race!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I'm well aware of what the "touring" trim level means. Again, I say...it is not as tight as the suspension on the Maxima.

    Wow...as intelligent as you seem to be, you clearly miss the points that are made. If you compare the 530 to the current Avalon, then yes...the 530 will whoop it's tail when it comes to performance. However...if you give the Avalon a TRUE sport tuned suspension, I guarantee...it'll give that 530 a serious run for it's money.

    The "touring" trim level for the Avalon, while lending itself to a sporty feel on the road, is far from a true sport tuned suspension. The "touring" suspension lends itself to rider comfort while also allowing for slightly aggressive driving. Would I push the Avalon Touring as hard as a Maxima...NO, I would not.

    Please note, and understand...I have not said at any point in any of my postings that the Azera or Avalon in current set-ups could ever contend with a BMW or any other sport sedan when it comes to performance. I have simply stated that if you gave either of the two cars a TRUE sport tuned suspension...THEN you could begin the performance comparisons.
  • Motor Trend 600 Foot Slalom

    Volkswagen Passat - 64.1 mph
    Hyundai Azera 63.7 mph
    Toyota Avalon 61.9 mph
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    . However...if you give the Avalon a TRUE sport tuned suspension, I guarantee...it'll give that 530 a serious run for it's money.

    No you can't and no it won't - the only thing it will do is outaccelerate it (and not by much)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I assume these numbers are from that 06 comparo? Yep the VW was cited for its relative tightness at the expense of ride, the Azera its relative softness and better ride, and the close winner of that particular comparo the Avalon Touring for its better balance between the two. To each his/her own, but had that been an Avalon XLS instead of the Touring they did test, I suspect that the results may have been different - if only because the enthusiast mags do tend to put more value in feel/handling than they do on 'cruising' - and perhaps the VW 'wins'. And no, that Passat is NOT a sports sedan either!.
  • Both the Lancer EVO and WRX are distant cousins to World Rally Cars, and as such are required to accelerate on dirt, ice and snow with over 400HP - they are AWD because they need to be to transfer that kind of power to the ground, same with the Lambo on the street.
    IMO, AWD is not necessary in a sedan that weighs 2 tons ( unless you drive in the mountains where there's lots of snow ) and thus with that kind of weight can not have serious sporting aspirations.
    As far as safety, the only safety with AWD is that it's harder to get stuck. Since the AWD only works when your'e on the gas, pressing the accelerator is opposite to what almost all drivers would do if they lost traction.
    BTW, I found out that the Stability Control on my Azera works: the back end came out slightly to follow a rut in the snow and the brakes came on quite agressively. IMO, Stability Control is worth more than AWD as far as a safety.
  • Acura RL 65.5
    BMW 545i 64.6
    Infinit M35 64.4
    Volks Passat 64.1
    Audi A6 Quattro 63.9
    Hyundai Azera 63.8
    Jaguar S-Type 63.8
    Chrysler 300C 63.2
    Acura TL 62.8
    Nissan Maxima 62.3
    Toyota Avalon 61.9
    Buick Lucerne 58.5
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    pressing the accelerator is opposite to what almost all drivers would do if they lost traction.
    especially those untrained/inexperenced ones? Agree with your comments, and also that SC systems are likely to be far more 'valuable' to the average driver, albeit at a price, of sorts..
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    this an effort to quantify what a 'sports sedan' is? Not exactly the most valid way to do this - especially considering the varying negative influences of stability contol systems on test results like these.. The wonderful FWD biased RL, to me, would have a hard time passing muster as a sports anything - it is simply too big and 'soft' and only does what it does because of that SH-AWD thing, the 545/M35/A6 perhaps - the rest - nope. Opinion, of course!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    That's all good and dandy but I don't know how TL got 62.8 mph on that list...

    Here's the stats from some "true" sports sedans according to R&T in their 01/07 issue:

    700 foot slalom:

    Lexus IS350: 66.7 mph
    Acura TL-S: 66.0 mph
    Infiniti G35S: 65.5 mph

    I think that's a fit of a strech for any car in this class to compare. Also, just sports suspension alone wouldn't make Azera or Avalon a sports car, it's the steering, chasis, turning motion, gearing along with a good suspension that makes one.
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