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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    wow interesting view. Now where do we fit korean automakers?

    ****
    So Hyundai makes a slightly better version of a Buick than GM does.

    ...

    It's still a large, bloated sedan. Tons of economy and well, nothing at all like a car any of us aspire to actually own someday. It's kind of like hearing two people argue over which flavor of oatmeal is best. Um... I'm heading right over to get me a nice steak, thankyouverymuch...
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,023
    "Tons of economy and well, nothing at all like a car any of us aspire to actually own someday"

    Well, since not everyone is "made of money" maybe a 30K+ car is something they "aspire to own" I don't know how many times someone has complimented my car ('06 Avalon) and said "wish I could afford that" What you aspire to own is all relative... I would love to have a Lexus LS and maybe one day I will but for now an Avalon will have to do, no different than someone driving an Accent and really wishing they could afford that "Large, bloated sedan" otherwise known as Azera.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    I seriously doubt that anyone who can afford a 30-35K car really couldn't afford a better car a few years used.(or something liks a LS and not have to trade cars for a decade)

    The interiors are full of plastic. The doors sound hollow when you close them. They are heavy as well - way WAY over 3000 lbs(closer to 4000 actually). I could be describing a Hyundai, a Buick, a Toyota...

    Now, there are a few exceptions. The Lucerne CXS is very nice, and the Avalon is as well(though plainly overpriced). But neither are a Lexus, Infinity, or Mercedes.

    Btw, my money, used, would be on a 2002-2003 S430. Amazing car and very affordable, considering.

    http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?paId=237802148
    Most go for about $20K, but I picked this as you could easily haggle it down to $25K and it has nearly no miles on it.(of course, if it was me, I'd only buy it in black...)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    According to Car and Driver

    Azera - 6.5 Sec 1/4 15.2 sec


    Doesn't sound right. C&D reached 6.5 in the Sonata 3.3

    I'd think the Azera 3.8 at least shaves some with higher power output.
  • jml7jml7 Posts: 5
    Hey- oatmeal is worth arguing over- especially the newer flavors that they have come out with lately. Mmmmmmmmmmm....... Oatmeal........

    Unless I am horribly mistaken, the Azera also weighs more than the Sonata, which would explain why it isn't faster.

    Where I live, a 2002 LS430 w/ 65K miles goes for 28K, so buying a used high-end luxury sedan is certainly an option.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    If you prefer a 6 year old car (out of warranty) with 65K miles, go ahead & buy it.

    Others would prefer a brand new Azera with "no miles" and the new car warranty.

    I think the Azera is faster than the Sonata (unless you're comparing the Azera GLS which has the Sonata 3.3L engine) since the weight to horse power ratio of the 3.8L Azera is less than that of the 3.3L Sonata. For everyday driving the Sonata is pretty darn quick, but the Azera is quicker.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Over the years, my unscientific observation has been that you can tell a lot about the future of the car from the direction the carmaker is going.

    Applying that today:

    Honda's on top because of its quality perception, both in studies and in the flesh, and wants to stay there.

    Toyota's had its head turned by sales and profit goals and isn't under pressure on quality because of its unimpeachable image, so it's slipped.

    The US Big 2.5 can't shake their management heritage, so their long-term reliability will always be suspect.

    Hyundai/Kia are on the make and determined to impress. I'm willing to bet their build quality is just as good where it doesn't show. (That's not to say the cars are perfect -- witness the clunk. It's to say they're probably using first-class materials and exerting maximum effort.)

    As for the snippy-snippy comments about Korean cars being "oatmeal" nobody would really desire, count me as one exception. I'd love to own and drive an Azera. It's pretty, it's fast, it's well made, and it pampers you like a sultan's bedroom. What more can a commuter ask?
  • jml7jml7 Posts: 5
    I agree. There is a reason that oatmeal sells well. Not flashy, but it works.
  • scbobscbob Posts: 167
    The Japanese and Korean corportate leaders look 3, 5, 10 years down the road and where they want their companies to be.
    American look to the next big bonus, stock option and so forth. Chrysler just hired the guy fired by Home Depot and given $250 million to leave. He has no experience with automobiles at all.
    While the marketing and flash of American advertising does work for a while, eventually people making the second biggest purchases of their lives look for real quality, dependability and reliability.
    I have owned Ford and Chrysler products and have friends who have owned the same and GM. They now drive Japanese cars-permanently.
    BTW, the maintenance cost on used European cars is about $2,000 annually above regular maintenance from I have been told.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,023
    "Doesn't sound right. C&D reached 6.5 in the Sonata 3.3"

    Thats the #'s they got when they last tested it (from their website). There are so variables when they do 0-60 and 1/4 miles that it could easily be a few tenths off from test to test.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,023
    Plekto,

    You are right that there are a # of deals in the used car market, however I wouldn't touch a 5 year old S430 with a ten foot pole. There are so many electronic gizmos in that thing I feel it would nickle and dime you to death. The last thing I want is a 18 - 20K car loan on a five year old out of warranty vehicle. I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.

    BTW a coworker has an '05 or '06 S430 4matic. He rode in my Avalon and said the ride was everybit as good. I said nah, can't be. So he let me take it for a spin. Not that much different (little more controlled and quieter). However, that vehicle had the nicest leather I have ever felt and the attention to detail is amazing. As it should for 85K.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    Note - I didn't single out Hyundai. I was talking about ALL of the 20-something thousand, boxes out there. But, yes, a fancy Hyundai or Chevrolet or Mercury is still a Hyundai, a Chevrolet, or a Mercury.

    And, yes, a used luxury car without the nav and other nonsense can be a fantastic car. Even used, it drives, handles, and will be a LOT better to drive than a typical "sedan".

    ****
    I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.
    ****

    this is like saying you could buy a used 911 or a new Miata. There's a whole level that you gain with the better used car that isn't there with the new budget car. It's not just a matter of pure economics.
  • makigrlmakigrl Posts: 19
    What about the Hyundai Genesis its pose to be their first car with a V-8 engine and rwd that will start around $30,000. The low end model will have the 260 something V-6 found in the Azera and then a higher level model with a 350 HP V-8. Like there trying to make a nicely styled vehicle that is sporty and more powerful than any of the other cars Hyundai has made.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you make a number of good points here - the 'Japanese' tradition of obligation to its 'family' among them. I also have very little doubt that given a choice of supplying a part to an 'American' mfgr. vs. a 'Japanese' one most of those parts suppliers would take the latter. Putting component part suppliers on a continual bid (low price wins) basis is only an invitation to shortcuts in quality by those suppliers - something more likely to show up with age.
    As far as JDP's opinion of things go - it is a 'sponsored' award and therefore very suspect in that it ALWAYS seems to end up with those manufacturers (Hyundai,GM, and Ford, for example) that seem to NEED it the most and will pay for the use of the JDP 'trophy' in advertising campaigns etc. Amazing that folks pay any attention to it anymore!
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 323
    I agree. In my area, most people who are going to buy used buy a three year old off-lease Lexus with about 25,000 -35,000 miles on it. This way they may have a little warrantly left and they can drive it for a few years before it hits 100,000 miles.

    I would be scared financing a car with 65,000 miles on it because I would have to spread it out over 4 or 5 years.
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    'The low end model will have the 260 something V-6 found in the Azera'

    Insiders are reporting that Hyundai will upgrade the present 3.8 V6 to 300hp.

    The 4.6 V8 is being reported to crank out 365hp.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Begging your indulgence -- admittedly drifting a bit off-topic here. But my personal take is that JD Power isn't the most dishonest automotive award out there.

    My impression is that JD Power does legitimate surveys. From there, they let the automakers cherry-pick the outcomes, such as creating a category of one so the carmaker can advertise "Most Appealing Entry-Level Small Midsize Wagon with Mudflaps." But at least this doesn't do an injustice to other entry-level small midsize wagons with mudflaps.

    A far worse offender is Motor Trend's Car of the Year, the award infamous for being outright bought by ad pages. How else did the molten Chevy Caprice taxicab win? I'm surprised the trophy isn't a pair of calipers with a wad of 20's stuffed in the middle.

    And worst of all in my book is the "Consumers Digest Best Buy." It's not only an award that's routinely bought, but its name deliberately leeches off the credibility of the actually credible Consumer Reports (and even the pretty decent Consumer Guide). I wish CU could sue the pants off these guys, and I'm sure they're perpetually seething that they can't. GM, naturally, sells a ton of these "winners."
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I agree- I would also guess that JDP is not the most 'dishonest' BUT any award given by anybody where the awarder receives any sort of monetary compensation (usually in the form of advertising revenues) by the awardee - must be regarded as suspect.
    It is beyond me how JDP (and the car mags, Consumer Digesat and others you mention) can claim impartiality, when they know, for example, that should they give one of those little trophies to the Taurus that Ford will put it in TV ads in a NY minute, while Toyota/Honda/Nissan probably won't - if only because those particular mfgrs have customers that expect it.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    That's what I am hearing. The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy.
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