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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    see post 4338 for more on what this particular issue had to say and yes I am talking about overall ratings not individual categories
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "It is now the 07 Camry and the ES that borrow more heavily from the Avalon"

    True, as the '05+ Avalon was the first vehicle with the 2GR and the new platform. However, I can't imagine that Toyota developed the Avalon having only the Avalon in mind. The Camry and Avalon (and ES, RX, Highlander, Sienna, RAV4, Solara did I miss any?) have always shared many components and I don't think that will ever change. This is also the reason that the Av will remain FWD, Toyota keeps the price down by sharing parts. If the Av was that different from the Camry it would start at over 35K going well into the 40s.

    BTW... the older Avalons were always available with bucket seats. My '03 had buckets and when I was shopping for it, I never saw one with a bench.

    "The 'old folks' rep is still out there"

    No offense to anyone... I think it is still out there because there is some truth to it. I have never seen anyone as young as me (29) driving an Avalon, and most drivers that I see in them here in south Jersey are 60+. Fine with me, many people are missing out on a great car, and one of the best stop light sleepers on the market.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No offense to anyone... I think it is still out there because there is some truth to it. I have never seen anyone as young as me (29) driving an Avalon, and most drivers that I see in them here in south Jersey are 60+. Fine with me, many people are missing out on a great car, and one of the best stop light sleepers on the market.

    As someone even younger than you (20 years old, and a Junior in college) I've been impressed by a couple of these large sedans as well. Sedans that would definitely NOT be marketed towards me (Taurus, for one). Some are just GREAT deals for what all you get.

    And, if it makes you feel any better (although you don't seem to feel bad!) I'm 6'4" and was fine in a midsizer Accord, but a friend of mine from school is 6'7" (University of Alabama at Birmingham football player) and drives an older Avalon as well (maybe a '97-'98). He's 24.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    You're right, I don't feel bad. I have always driven large sedans, and probably won't stop anytime soon. As for the good deals, the Taurus just amazes me at how much car you get for in some cases under 20K. If that is what I had to spend, it would be top of the list.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If I weren't pleased as punch with my 2006 Accord, I might as well. The only downside would be the hit in fuel economy. Sure, its faster than my Accord (6.8 seconds to 60MPH vs. 8.1 seconds in my car) but I highly doubt the Taurus will bring upper 30s MPG regularly on highway trips like my 4-cyl Accord does very consistently!
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Somehow the CR version you are reading is different than all others:

    http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/deadwayt/CR.jpg

    The Sonata I4 is clearly above average and exceeded many other performers in the pack.

    The Sonata V6 was average but per CR it was still predicted to be much better than other V6 models such as Camry, Altima, Mazda6, Aura, Passat, among others (all are in the black hole - less than average, by the way).

    Let's move on, this is not a forum on CR/JDP/etc
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    I honestly don't think the G8 will have different sized tires in the front compared to the rear.
    There would be no reason for the G8 to have wider tires on the front than the rear since as a rear drive car it will probably carry less than 55% of its weight on the front wheels - as opposed to the 60-65% that these FWD cars carry. In fact many higher powered RWD cars mount wider tires on the rear to combat power induced oversteer. Those wider tires usually include wider and/or differing offset wheels than the front, hence cannot be rotated.
    You have previously noted the " YouTube " posting of the Azera at Virginia Raceway. Did you also note that that Azera ( driven by a racetrack instructor ) had 245 tires in the front and 225s on the rear? Simply an attempt to " balance " the handling.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Wasn't azera already a test bed for entry into lux or they will follow Toyota and simly have different grille and bumper on their lux Genesys?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The Azera is Hyundai's foray into the luxury segment, as denoted by the entry-level luxury tagging the Azera has received.

    The Genesis...oh no my friend, that's Hyundai's foray into the luxury sport sedan segment...while it may still be a horse, it's a horse of another color...of course!

    What do you mean by, "...or will follow Toyota..."
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Exactly my point Captain, the Avalon enjoyed 10 years of history before the major upgrade. With that type of longevity, how much advertising do you really need? The Avalon almost HAD to be their first upgrade in the HP department to keep up with Honda and Nissan. At one point, it seemed as if Toyota had no interest in jumping in the HP war. I'm glad to see they did because it suddenly made their vehicles competitors again!!!

    Don't feel bad, the Azera has the "old folks" rap as well. Most of the posters here that have one are 45+ (I'm pretty sure), I'm only 37 myself. However, as of late...I've started seeing a few Azeras in my area with younger guys/gals driving them. The Avalon...there's a sprinkling that I've seen with a younger person at the wheel as well. I have seen one Avalon in my area where the guy put some 20" chrome wheels, tinted the windows and it looked VERY sharp. I didn't even know what it was from a distance. I'm not saying it takes 20" wheels, but I tell you...it really looked nice.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    nope the same CR, the I4 Sonata does indeed keep its high rating, it is the V6 that only manages the 'average' - it is the Azera that is showing a rather significant decline. As I noted in that earlier post (4338) it is now the Lucerne V8 and Avalon that lead this group, last year it was the Azera followed by the Avalon.. Besides which didn't know that they really sold too many 4 bangers, the Sonata is a pretty large car in its class and its V6s tend to be cheaper than some of their competitors 4 s.
    But back to the original point of this thread, I see nothing in these reliabililty studies that is going to change a public perception that I'll argue does exist that 'Korean' cars are 'cheap' and therefore not a viable alternative to those buyers that seemingly Hyundai seems to think (hope) the Genesis is. For Hyundai to change its rep they need to be able to produce a whole line full of I4 Sonatas and do it for something more than a few years - then the car buyer might just pay more attention to it. My guess is that regardless of how good the Genesis may or may not be - it is doomed for failure - people will look at a $40k sticker on a well appointed Genesis, shake their head and say '40 grand for a Hyundai - no way' And unfortunately for Hyundai they likely won't even drive it. I think the same thing is happening as well at a lower level with the Azera, car buyers expect 'Korean' cars to cost 10 grand - not 30 or 40!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    To be honest, I wasn't paying attention to the tires in the You Tube posting. I can say that the wider tires do make a difference. Like I said before with my 20" wheels on, the tires are 245/35-20...all the way around. Understeer is much less pronounced than when I have the factory wheels and tires on, handling is much, much better and it tracks extemely well in curves.

    Most of the high powered RWD vehicles like that, are the "exotics" that I mentioned before. I know the Lexus GS line has the same tires all the way around, I believe the Infinity M does as well. Not sure when it comes to the BMW 5-Series or Benz E-Class though.
  • Dale Jarrett Ford near Charlotte, NC advertises $8000 off MSRP on the new 2008 Ford Taurus including all rebates. One example is listed at $16988! Fine print points out that not all will qualify for all rebates.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Since when will the Genesis be going for $40K??? It's been stated that it will start out in the mid/upper-$20K's and fully loaded top of the line...mid/upper-$30K's.

    Most folks without a clue would expect Korean cars to cost $10K, those that actually take the time to take the likes of the Azera and Veracruz for a test drive, will definitely see a vehicle worth the price range it is in.

    By the way, Captain...have YOU driven an Azera, much less...sat in one???
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the Avalon has never been highly advertised, promoted, rebated etc etc. at any time in its existence TMK - it has simply been there rolling along selling a few thousand copies a month - a gussied up Camry. Its 'old folk' rep was certainly not to its benefit. The 05 which really was a new car, much in the same way the Azera was a year later, and was also the first Toyota/Lexus product to use the 2GR.
    The previous median age for the Avalon buyer was apparently 64 and was definitely not even on my shopping list back in the spring of 2005 and I really just kinda lucked into it. Saw a car I didn't recognize (they only had the one) displayed prominently in front of a dealer - it was a large sedan that reminded me of a BMW (from the rear, anyway) - closer examination revealed 280hp and FE of 22/31 - it said 'Avalon on the trunk - you've got to be be kidding. The power/FE specs were better than anything else out there at the time in those respects (still is, I guess) - so followed that up with a quick test drive (Touring model) and the rest as they say is history. The fact that its says 'Avalon' on the trunk was not to my preference I suppose although I'll freely admit that the fact that it has the Toyota emblem led me to violate one of my rules in buying a car - never buy a truly new car in its first year of production.
    The Azera, of course, wasn't available yet - I do have a neighbor that ended up buying a loaded to the gills 'Limited' for about $28k drive out (I think) after I told him that he needed to check it out. He has been very satisfied with it. Had I waited the extra year, can't tell you that I wouldn't have ended up in one, although frankly I think that those first model year jitters along with the FE difference would still have landed me in the Av. ;)
    PS. at the time I was trying to find my Avalon (it was tough back then) I saw a dealer optioned Limited that had a price tag of well over $40k included some 19" chromies and summer tires that they wanted an extra $8k for!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    yep - see 4457. I am an incorrigible car nut, do alot of reading and take advantage of so many 'free' test drives - that I wonder when the dealers will start recognizing me ;) Think they do but its easier now that my Avalon is a little older. As I have said many many times I find the Azera to be a solid ride, perhaps a little soft for my taste and perhaps a little too Buicky looking from the rear.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    May I ask, what Buick have you looked at to say the Azera looks Buicky from the rear??? If anything, it leans more heavily towards BMW than the Avalon does.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    full width tailight treatment reminds me of those previous LeSabres/Centurys etc. Buick abandoned this style in the Lacrosse/Lucerne. The Lucerne in particular, I like the looks of.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I remember the original Avalon. I believe the bench seat was the base, with individual seats as a option. The Captain is right when he says there was NO advertising for the Avalon in the early years, and frankly not much even today. I think it truly is more of a word of mouth vehicle (as is the Azera in my opinion). This forum has, if nothing else, been indicative of the small coterie of Azera owners (including yours truly) being rabid about their Azzy's. When I got my 85 year old mother an Avalon XLS, she loved it for two main reasons -- first, the key went in straight, not into the column and was easy for her to turn and, second, the auto tranny shifted with less effort than we found on Volvo's, BMW's, MB's, and Buick's. The only other car she was interested in trading her big blue Lincoln Continental in on, was a Chrysler 300 and I was not interested in having to worry about its reliability. So, I pushed her for the Avalon and it was a great car. Although she still has a license (at 91) she no longer drives, but does love the Azera .

    I believe that the owners of Azera's and Avalon's that post here regularly are well aware that we do not own sport sedans and probably weren't looking for a sport sedan when we bought our cars. I'm sure Taurus and Buick owners are in the same grouping. We want a larger car with lots of amenities and enough power not to be embarrassed to be seen driving in the fast lane. Decent fuel economy is important, but we didn't go looking for hybrids.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    That's about where you can draw the line, because the lines of the Azera from the back look nothing like a Buick in any way, shape or form. If that's the case, you can say the same thing of the Sonata as well.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    $8000 off MSRP on the new 2008 Ford Taurus
    if true - more bad news for Ford, read an article this morning that has Land Rover and Jaguar being bought ($2 billion) by a truck co. from India supposedly so Ford can concentrate on its money losing US operations.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that Toyota developed the Avalon having only the Avalon in mind
    yeah they did - the Avalon being designed in Calif, built of course in Ky. from parts that are also largely (90% ?) mfgd. here. It is not sold anywhere else in the world apparently (except for Canada). The engine/drivetrain OTH a different story in terms of why they developed it, however, and as it too is made here, and I understand it is actually being exported to Japan, where most of the Lexus models are assembled. Read something somewhere that the 2GR actually costs Toyota $1000.00 less to produce than the 3 and 3.3 liter engines that preceded it. Fine with me as well, it's a helluva engine and I'm apparently keeping food on some dinner tables in Missouri somewhere to boot!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    good post - if I remember correctly the front bench also got you a column mounted (had to be obviously) - something that would logically be of even more appeal to those older 'traditionists' that would've had a hard time adjusting to anything other than one of those 'wonderful' Grand Marquis' (or big blue Town Cars) ;) .
  • quietproquietpro Posts: 702
    The old-gen Avalon was the Cressida. I believe the change in names came about in the late 90s. The Cressida was big and boxy like the old Camries and was extremely "old-folksy."
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I would like to think that Hyundai made a note of that and won't follow that way of doing things.

    Funny thing is...we don't expect the imports to do that, but it's a way of life for the domestic companies that do it. I mean...the difference between a Ford and a Lincoln/Mercury is grille treatment, some extra padding, maybe a lil more faux wood trim and viola! Mopar was like that for a long time too, but it seems they figured it out. I mean...the 300 and Charger are sister vehicles, mechanically the same, but visually different.

    Hard to say really...maybe they'll introduce the Genesis under the Hyundai umbrella and see how it does...then maybe move it under their luxury umbrella when they introduce it. I can see them making a full luxury version of the Azera as their entry level luxo car, then the Genesis (sedan and coupe), followed by a luxury version of the Veracruz.

    However...they need to get some things right with the current line-up they have now. Well, not necessarily get it right, but just show consistency over a longer period of time. For a while, I was thinking that Hyundai & Kia would be the likes of Ford & Lincoln/Mercury, but it seems that even though they share ownership...Kia clearly wants its own identity.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus

    Uh...what?

    Does that apply to the original LS400 as well?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus

    Uh...what?

    Check out a 1990 Camry, then a 1990 Lexus ES250.

    Acura and Honda did the same, with the Acura Legend and the Honda Accord. Look at both 1989 models.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    alex - not exactly - the only Lexus car model that is really correspondent to anything with a Toyota label is the ES, of course - it being the only Lexus to be assembled here and still very close to a rebadged Camry. The Lexus Gs, ISs, and LSs are unique cars that all happen to be RWD. When Toyota introduced Lexus it was the LS400 at about $40-50k and certainly not close to anything Toyota was selling at that time (and even today).
    Nissan, of course, has been a champion rebadger and was doing the same thing with the J30 and I30 being rebadged Maximas and only having the Q45 to truly represent the Infiniti line. Boy, things have sure changed recently though with the G and the M now correspondent to the Lexus ISs and Gs respectively - a 'competition' that many experts has Nissan wins.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    They should look into Nissan now. NEW NIssan Vehicles have completely different appearance from Infinity. Nissan has hard lines and you can see soft lines on Infinity cars/SUVs
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