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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Is there anything wrong with copying what works? I hate to say it, but every car company borrows something from another car company...it's the overall presentation that makes it work or not work.

    Maybe the Azera will supplant the Sonata.

    I don't think folks will worry about rear wheel drive traction issues considering TCS. I mean...cabbies do it every winter in their Crown Vics/Grand Marquis with no problems and no TCS.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, but now you're talking horses of another breed. I mean...why would Toyota drop the Avalon because of the Lexus GS line? If anything...drop the ES line because of the Avalon. Alas, there's always someone that just has to have the Lexus symbol on their car, even if it means paying more than an Avalon to get about the same as you would if you bought an Avalon.

    However, this presents an interesting question concerning the Azera/Genesis. It's under the same brand name and the price points for both are close with the Genesis reaching higher because of it's V-8 model. But...starting price for the Genesis is the mid-$20K's...Azera SE territory. The mid-level Genesis will probably go for between the upper-$20K's to probably right at $30K...Azera Limited territory and then the V-8 Genesis will hit the low to upper-mid-$30's....in it's own class (for Hyundai anyway).
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    We've just seen the display of the second generation of Lambdas (3.3 & 3.8), which has made its promise on the increase in horsepower; now we'll see how the fuel economy plays out. Early words are the postive side, even with the additional crank in hp.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I mean...why would Toyota drop the Avalon because of the Lexus GS line?

    I believe tjc78 was trying to say that Hyundai to introduce the Genesis above the Azera is like Toyota makes a rebaged Toyota GS above the Avalon. They both are going to compete with their not-so-lower-tier models.

    That's different than dropping the GS from Lexus.

    But...starting price for the Genesis is the mid-$20K's

    I would bet you my car key that the starting MSRP for the 3.3 Genesis will be no where near the mid $20k. I would guess it to be something like $28,995. The 3.8 will be around $32k and the V8 to start at $35k. The Genesis will be a good value but Hyundai is not about to throw them away yet.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Yeah, but now you're talking horses of another breed. I mean...why would Toyota drop the Avalon because of the Lexus GS line"

    Louis hit right on the head of what I meant. Its just to me strange to have two similar vehicles in one lineup. If the Azera was selling like crazy I could understand, however, the Genesis is likely to grab at least 30% of sales from the Azera. Then what? I can only see one of them surviving, but only time will tell.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I understand where you are coming from but can you clarify the similarities between the two?
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    I still think there are people that wouldn't buy a RWD vechicle fearing the poor traction in snow.

    Well, it snows in Germany too, if you get my drift. (MB-BMW)
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    I still think there are people that wouldn't buy a RWD vechicle fearing the poor traction in snow.
    It isn't just the snow traction that FWD has over RWD. Size for size FWD should be lighter due to no rear diff and driveshaft ( e.g. better fuel economy ). Additionally, the driveshaft hump in the rear center seat will be smaller, making that seating position more comfortable.
    I acknowledge that weight distribution, torque steer and understeer are a bigger problem with FWD, but in a family cruiser, so what?
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Well, it snows in Germany too"

    Those people are also much more used to RWD and how to drive it. There is a whole generation in this country that very well may have never driven a RWD vehicle. I agree that RWD can be fine and would switch from my FWD Avalon to RWD in a minute if the vehicle was right.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "but in a family cruiser, so what"

    I know where you are coming from, and most people would actually prefer FWD for the benefits you explain. One of the things people love about my Avalon is the nearly flat rear floor. OTOH, as these sedans get more powerful the benefits of RWD soon begin to become apparent.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "can you clarify the similarities between the two"

    Both are "large" sedans with similar engines, amenities, pricing. Yes, the Genesis is RWD and will be pricier in higher trim levels, but do you really think Hyundai has a market for 2 upscale sedans? Not even Toyota or Honda do that in their lineups. Hyundai's mediocre sales of the Azera and Veracruz should tell you something. Don't get me wrong I like the Hyundai product and the Genesis definately has my interest, I just have my doubts as to how much a success it will be.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    It's already been stated that the Genesis will start out in the mid-$20K's. It's also been said that the top of the line, fully loaded would top out around $37K. Guess we'll have to wait and see, huh?

    By the way...if the 3.3 does come out in the mid-$20K's, just send me your key in the mail and I'll come and pick the car up later on! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I don't think folks will worry about rear wheel drive traction issues considering TCS
    a common misperception and a summary of why this is a real problem - traction control systems do not CREATE traction much in the same way that SC systems don't CREATE stability. It is the folks that aren't 'worried' about it that end up in a snowbank - or worse - or even with a car stuck on the side of the road that 'refuses' to move,(in the event that the TC (or VSC) systems are working the way they should).
    Given that most drivers today were trained on FWD vehicles, it becomes much more difficult for them to adjust to RWD - especially with cars with a good dose of HP. I think there is a good possibility that today's drivers won't 'like' RWD simply because it will be more difficult for them to get to where they are going (at times). RWD has several things going for it, but winter/bad road drivability ISN'T one of them - Traction control etc. or not.
    PS - your GM/CV cabbies BTW that 'do it every winter' - likely have sandbags in the trunk to supplement their own experience (and expertise) in driving vehicles like that in difficult conditions - just like many of the rest of us did 25+ years ago (or so) before FWD became so popular.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    louis - since I know what your keys fit, I wouldn't be betting such a fine vehicle on Hyundai's ability to keep prices up on anything
    BUT
    per that blog article referenced in #4520 the Azera -
    With capabilities and features comparable to $60,000 premium sedans, Genesis will be offered at a starting price under $30,000 when it goes on sale this summer.
    where I come from 'a starting price of under $30000' does NOT mean $25k, it means more precisely what you guesstimate - 28 or 29 (perhaps even a $29995 base price?). No matter - It is a real shame IMO, that anything that is presented to be so good must also be so 'cheap'. Perhaps Hyundai would do better if this WASN"T the case and they could sell this thing for only a little less than that $60k vehicle they THINK it is 'comparable' to? Wake up Hyundai - pay some attention to what has worked in the past - call the car something else - and price it accordingly.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...it depends on the mindset behind the wheel. Yes, I do understand that a great many believe that TCS is going to keep them safe under treacherous driving conditions. Maybe I should have put myself in the mind set of the many before posting. TCS does not create traction, it merely assists in the event of a loss of traction by removing power from whichever wheel(s) are slipping.

    You are so right, the cabbies have the experience to overcome those conditions in their RWD cars, using whatever means have worked for years and years.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Captain...of course I understand your point here, but now you're going against the grain as well. Hyundai understands it's position, therefore...they can't create a car that would seemingly be worth $60K and put a price tag on it of $50K. I mean...you're one that believes Hyundai will have a problem selling a car that they want close to $40K for, so why sell it for $50K?

    It was estimated that the Azera would sell for $30K from the beginning, did that happen...eh, depends on the market you're in. However, if you look at the Azera line-up...you can get a base model GLS for below $20K and a fully loaded Limited for right at around $30K. That being the case, why would be so hard to believe that the Genesis would start out in the low-mid$20's (say $24K) and go all the way up to $37K for the fully loaded big dog?

    Why do they need to call the car something else???

    On the flip side, the thing I see hurting sales of the Genesis is the fact that they never created a strong foothold for the Azera. While the Azera has garnered a following by those that have actually purchased one, it doesn't go far beyond that. Yeah, there's a few folks out there that give the Azera a nod and recognize it for what it is, but the fact that sales aren't exactly brisk, they are forced to price the Genesis at a lower price point.

    Had the Azera had phenomenal sales, setting records for Hyundai and creating a buzz that goes further than it currently does, then I can see them asking more for the Genesis as the Azera already occupies a majority of the pricing segment that the Genesis will also squeeze into. It would make sense to start the pricing of the Genesis at around $30K for the base model 3.3 version and take the fully loaded V-8 model up to the $40K threshold.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    By the way...if the 3.3 does come out in the mid-$20K's, just send me your key in the mail and I'll come and pick the car up later on!

    And vice versa.

    By the way, when I come pick up your Azera I expect to see stock rims on it instead of those aftermarket ones you have right now.

    It's already been stated that the Genesis will start out in the mid-$20K's.

    Show me a link from Hyundai of them stating that the base Genesis will start around mid-$20K's ($24k - $27k).
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    LOL Oh, trust me...you wouldn't have gotten the aftermarket ones anyway! ;)

    I'll do you one better, I'll let you just see for yourself.

    You can't read too much into media print. Everyone speculated on the HP of the Genesis when it was said merely that it would be more than 300 HP. A lot of folks that I spoke to speculated in the lower range of 300 (310-325 HP). I was one thinking along the lines of 350 HP. When it comes to their pricing...well, like I said...the Azera was supposed to be a $30K car. Currently, if your paperwork has anything over $30K, it's most likely after financing, taxes, tags and title are thrown in. My Limited w/Premium was $26,081 BEFORE any rebates and trade-in were factored in. The Ultimate would have cost me $1500 more, what's pretty well below the $30K mark.

    Now...the Azera line up runs from a hair under $20K (GLS) all the way up to a hair under $30K (Limited w/Ultimate XM package), and even that depends on the market you're in.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Don't worry Cap, I don't think I'll be driving anything else other than a Lexus anytime soon, with a little bit of luck I might find a nice looking Azera in my garage in the near future.

    Why my guesstimate of the base Genesis to be at $28,599?

    1. Hyundai has already stated that the Genesis will be starting under $30k.

    2. The 3.3L Azera GLS starts at $24,235 (already mid $20k).

    3. The 3.8L Azera Limited starts at $27,335 (already approaching upper $20k).

    If Hyundai has any sense (that's the only risk I am taking) they wouldn't price the base Genesis lower than the Azera and definitely not to price it around the Azera GLS, which is the lowest trim. The Genesis will be the flagship of the lineup, to price it at mid $20k Hyundai might as well declare the Azera dead.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Now...the Azera line up runs from a hair under $20K (GLS)

    What? You need to pay a visit to the CURRENT Hyundai website.

    By the way, just to make it clear, all the prices I was talking about are MSRP.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    And who pays MSRP???
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    And who pays MSRP???

    It doesn't matter, it's pointless to speculate anything other than MSRP because the car can cost X dollars in Atlanta but another price in Detroit.

    Nobody (okay, almost nobody) pays MSRP but everyone pays a price that's relative to MSRP. Once the MSRP is set then we can go on to talk about what will be the discount.

    So the base Genesis to have a MSRP of $28,599, agree?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    If you're gonna have one in your garage, it is because you went out and bought one. You were the one that said you would give up your keys, that statement never came out of my mouth. I love my Azera too much to consider just giving it up. Now...I may consider trading it on the Genesis.

    I do stand corrected, and you're right...which echoes a point I made earlier about having two cars occupying a similar pricing segment...not good at all.

    One thing I'm wondering, how smooth will that 3.3 V-6 be in that heavier car. I mean...it's going to kick out more HP than it currently does, but will it be working harder to do so...even with the 6-speed tranny? Honestly...I think the 3.3 should be dropped and just have the 3.8 V-6 and 4.6 V-8 as the only options for the Genesis.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai understands it's position, therefore...they can't create a car that would seemingly be worth $60K and put a price tag on it of $50K
    now I guess you understand why I believe the Genesis is doomed much like the Azera is - because it is unlikely (IMO) that anybody is going to give the car a look - at 30k or 40k or whatever. And I don't care how good it is - nobody will spend that kind of money for a 'Hyundai'. And as one poster said - it might just be the best thing since 'buttered popcorn'. No matter, call it something else and disguise the best you can who actually makes it - maybe a different story - if the car is that good. Maybe the real solution is to establish that new 'brand' and take both the Azera and the Genesis upmarket leaving the Sonatas/Elantras etc. to duke it out with the masses.
    Who would've thought back in in 80s, that Toyota could sell a car for 40k (at the time when everything else they made was maybe half the price) and really and truly compete effectively with those Germans? They got away with it because it was a damn fine car, had a brand name to differentiate it from anything else made by Toyota, and because Toyota already had established a good name on its own. The Lexus was successful because it was assummed that it MUST be a good car - largely because it was built by Toyota and it was. Hyundai might only score on one of those three points, which is why the problem.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Agreed.

    That's what I thought. I knew you are not that foolish to donate your Azera to be my 2nd car.

    ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I think the 3.3 should be dropped and just have the 3.8 V-6 and 4.6 V-8 as the only options for the Genesis.

    I couldn't agree with you more. However, I think the reason why the 3.3 to be the base engine is that Hyundai has the keep the promise of keeping the base price under $30k. There is no way in the basement that they'll be able to do that with the 3.8 as the base engine.

    Personally I think the 3-engine option for this car is an overkill.

    For those of you who is interested in the Genesis, the 3.8 V6 is the way to go.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Come on now, I don't think you would love it like I do. It would be like the proverbial red-headed step child in your family! LOL
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Weeeellllllll...actually, they could still pull it off with the 3.8. Just have a stripped down version with only a few features, but still have the 3.8 and sell it for $29,599 and go up from there! ;)

    You are right though, the 3.8 model would be the way to go for a nice blend of power, performance and possible FE. You'll see a sprinkling of the V-8's just because folks feel a need for POWER. I'm quite content with the 263 ponies in my Azera, but with the extra weight of the Genesis...it'll probably feel the same. I can't lie and say that V-8 isn't a tempting option. :blush:
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and who pays MSRP - well if you are buying cars that are in high demand - almost everybody is going to get darn close to paying that much. Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura products, in particular , tend to be sold for numbers quite unrelated to what one would expect to pay for a Korean (or Detroit) product. I assure you that in the unlikely event that the Genesis is met by adoring throngs, it becomes a car that has a waiting list, that it will be the first Hyundai in history to sell at MSRP as well - after Hyundai raises its prices and it also becomes the first Hyundai in history to maintain some semblance of resale value.
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