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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    In the current issue of MT, a 'first look' at the Genesis - not an actual road test, but in it a few comments from a Hyundai exec. talking about its anticipated competitors (supposedly the 300/Avalon/Maxima in lieu of those 'premium' brand models we have discussed here) This I'll bite on, although it will not have the 'traditional' Hyundai price advantage over those specific cars. The question is: If the Genesis is supposed to steal away Avalon/Maxima customers (which is more logical) then WHY the Azera - a car more directly comparable that does have that Korean price hook? Sure sounds like the Azera is about to become an orphan - for those who do shop the Hyundai brand, wouldn't the Azera be a far cheaper alternative to Hyundai's own Genesis otherwise?
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I haven't seen prices like that for the Max up here in NJ. If you can truely buy them for that price its a sweet deal.

    "if you consider also the likely 'market' for the Genesis"

    I contend the only market for the Genesis is current Av/Az/300/Max/Lucerne etc. You may also get a few CamCord drivers as well looking for a bigger vehicle. I know where you are coming from on the pricing advantage it does shrink when comparing the Genesis to say Avalon, however it may prove to be "more car" for equal money.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    however it may prove to be "more car" for equal money
    Does any 'Hyundai' model sell well, without also being the 'cheapest'? A real 'enthusiast' might consider paying 'more' for a RWD because all else equal it will likely be a 'better' car from strictly a dynamic point of view. Most buyers, however, I contend, are only buying size, price, and brand perception/resale - probably in that order- and don't give a darn about things like FWD/RWD or vehicle dynamics.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "but with RWD be a better driving car than either the Av or Max"

    That remains to be seen. Handling at the limits yes Genesis will win. However, ride quality, NVH etc is tough to beat in the Avalon. Too soon to make any of those claims.

    "Now...compare a fully loaded V-8 Genesis to the 300C/Charger R/T or the G8.."

    I don't think they compare in any way other than being RWD. Well, maybe the 300 but the Charger and G8 are more performance oriented than the Genesis will be. Yes the Genesis will be a straight line performer, but I will bet anything that it will be knocked for being "floaty". The masses like a smooth ride and Hyundai will not stray from that.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Does any 'Hyundai' model sell well, without also being the 'cheapest'"

    Probably not currently, however, the Genesis may start to change that

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the dealer salesperson will have to do the mother of all pitches to explain the difference.
    agreed , and I don't believe that the 'normal' autobuyer is going to be able to tell the difference by driving them (FWD vs. RWD). Now if they do 'tighten' up the Genesis as opposed to the 'soft' Azera then that same buyer probably does feel the difference. That actually may work to Genesis' disadvantage, making it an even more difficult sale.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    IMO only the loaded up versions of the Azera are true competition for the Avalon and Maxima. This brings the car to 30K ( and above). From what I have read the Genesis with the 3.3 will start just under 30K. Sort of a wash. Honestly Hyundai having the Genesis and the Azera is worse than Chevy having the Malibu and Impala, Camry/Av etc. At least those vehicles are different sizes.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    been seeing lots of 'come-on' ads for Maximas lately - at $23-$25K, a price you'll never find for any trim Avalon, and even possibly Azeras. Agree with you on the apparent redundancy of the Azera - if you consider also the likely 'market' for the Genesis.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Why wouldn't you see a $23-$25K price range for the Azera??? It tops right around $30K as it is!!! The GLS model starts out around $23K. :confuse:
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Actually...the market that the Genesis would attract buyers from would be those looking at the 300C/Charger R/T, G8.

    How do you go about comparing the Genesis to the Avalon or Max when it'll have about the same power (in 3.8 V-6 form), but with RWD be a better driving car than either the Av or Max. The Lucerne in V-8 form won't contend with the Genesis in any form, heck...it's a weak competitor for the Azera.

    When you weight the option of spending say $33K for a FWD Avalon vs. a RWD Genesis, even though they may be comparably equipped...I hate to say it, I think the FWD Avalon will win out. Now...compare a fully loaded V-8 Genesis to the 300C/Charger R/T or the G8...the Genesis will give you a laundry list of amenities that you won't get in the other 3 mentioned and fully loaded, the G8 will probably be the least expensive option. The Genesis will fall between the G8 and the 300C/Charger R/T.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    an 'uncharacteristically' ;) objective evaluation, allmet - but not an answer to why Hyundai should or should not even continue making the Azera. Think of a large sedan buyer on a Saturday afternoon touring a Hyundai dealer - that buyer is likely very price sensative (otherwise he wouldn't be there in the first place) and he has a choice between a loaded to the gills Azera for lets say $26k, and a 3.8 Genesis for maybe $32 or $33k - is he really going to pay that extra $6k for the RWD? My contention is probably not - so therefore Hyundai is probably cutting its own throat by even having the Azera there as an option. I believe that the Hyundai marketing mavens might also be understanding this. Now if it were called something else and it was bought somewhere else - perhaps he might spend that 6 grand (or potentially even more) .
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I don't think they compare in any way other than being RWD. Well, maybe the 300 but the Charger and G8 are more performance oriented than the Genesis will be. Yes the Genesis will be a straight line performer, but I will bet anything that it will be knocked for being "floaty". The masses like a smooth ride and Hyundai will not stray from that.

    Like you said...too soon to really know that for sure. Hyundai could very well surprise all and the Genesis could outperform all 3 (300C, Charger R/T & G8). However, when I said compare the Genesis to them...it was more in terms of what you get for the money.

    As compared to the G8...the power will be close to the same in V-8 form, the Genesis will get the nod in amenities and features. As compared to the 300C or Charger R/T...the Genesis will offer more power, as well as more features and amenities as well.

    Concerning performance...we will just have to see what happens when the Genesis actually drops and testing has been conducted to see where it stands as a performance sedan.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the Genesis may start to change that
    It's going to have to - isn't it? I just can't get by 'sticker shock' - imagine, something approaching $40k (or even more) for a Hyundai - and you are right - in a strictly 'what you get for the money' perspective it could be worth every penny!
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I still remember when my '03 Avalon was close to coming off lease, I looked at the Azera. When talking cars with someone at the office I said the Azera was a little over 30K MSRP loaded. Exact quote: " 30K for an f***** Hyundai, you're crazy" I told him how great a car it was and Hyundai isn't the same company that it was, but, that perception is hard to change. If the '05+ Avalon didn't exist I very well may have an Azera.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    they don't advertise the Avalon either and they started out selling over 100000 per year an increase of 70000 from the '04 model -it has now apparently leveled off to a mere 60000. I know, I know, its all because the Avalon, has a 'name' and the Azera is the new kid on the block- except that in almost 20 years I don't believe Toyota has ever spent much on promoting the Avalon. They don't have to.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    The masses like a smooth ride and Hyundai will not stray from that
    undeniably, true - the reason for Toyota's success. The comments from that Hyundai rep I mentioned in that MT article however, was that the Genesis would be more a 'sports sedan ' than a 'land yacht'. There was a comment from the article author that casts some doubt on Hyundai's ability to build a 'sports sedan'....
  • Personally I think there will still be a place for the Azera, just as there is a place for the Camry XLE V6, which is very different from the Camry LE.
    Also, did anybody pay close to MSRP for an Azera? Mine was 4,000 off. I looked at the Avalon Limited, but to get comparable equipment, I would have been at 5,000 more with the best offer trading in a 2003 Camry. Toyota and Lexus just do not discount their cars very much.
    Biggest thing I had against the Avalon was that it looks and feels small. Also, the interior did not appear to well designed,e.g. white buttons on controls, doors over controls, etc.
    Nice to tell people it is a $30,000 car, even it doesn't really cost that much.
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    Re: 5332 Hyundai is probably cutting its own throat by even having the Azera there as an option. I believe that the Hyundai marketing mavens might also be understanding this. Now if it were called something else and it was bought somewhere else -

    Can you imagine a consumer looking to upgrade their Accord / Camry but otherwise pass on Avalon/Lexus/Acura. So the improved US marketing and / or Super Bowl commercials stick in that consumers mind and they remember Genesis regardless of v8, RWD or maybe it is simply a nice looking car.

    They get to the Hyundai dealership and if an Azera is anywhere near a Genesis, the dealer salesperson will have to do the mother of all pitches to explain the difference.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I got a quote for my dad well over a year ago on the SE model (it had the 3.8). The quote was $22,948 out the door. I'd think they'd only come down since then.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Can you imagine a consumer looking to upgrade their Accord / Camry but otherwise pass on Avalon/Lexus/Acura.

    If someone is happy with the Accord/Camry and looking to upgrade I can guarantee that the last place they'll look is a Hyundai dealership (okay, maybe KIA).

    Mark my words.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Personally I think there will still be a place for the Azera, just as there is a place for the Camry XLE V6, which is very different from the Camry LE."

    Apples and oranges here. Its much more profitable for a manufacturer to build one vehicle different ways than to have two completely different vehicles in the same class.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "was that the Genesis would be more a 'sports sedan ' than a 'land yacht'"

    I'll believe it when I see it. I believe that it will be no tighter than an Avalon touring. Of course, the RWD and better weight distribution will help things.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    How do you go about comparing the Genesis to the Avalon or Max when it'll have about the same power (in 3.8 V-6 form), but with RWD be a better driving car than either the Av or Max. The Lucerne in V-8 form won't contend with the Genesis in any form, heck...it's a weak competitor for the Azera.

    Actually, the trim Genesis expected to have the most deliveries pumps out more horsepower than every other car discussed here recently. The V8 too, also the 3.3 @ 264hp is something very efficient.

    Hyundai will not have to sell a crazy amount of cars to be measured as a success. A modest 1K-2K/month is a good step tracking up. More importantly, the intangibles the Genesis (and the Genesis Coupe) bring to the table are impossible to quantify.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    more a 'sports sedan ' than a 'land yacht'"
    this according to that Hyundai rep. in that MT article but OTH if you look at the Azera or even the Sonata/Elantra/Amanti/Optima, the Koreans have seemingly discovered the virtues ;) of 'soft', outdoing even Toyota in that respect. That ain't easy. The Genesis - a sports sedan? Like you, I'll believe it when I see it.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    For the Azera and Avalon, I've actually found the ride quality, NVH, for example, pretty much neck by neck, with the Azera having a slight edge.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I would say it's more of a luxury sports sedan than a sports sedan. :)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai will not have to sell a crazy amount of cars to be measured as a success. A modest 1K-2K/month is a good step tracking up.
    a big 10-4 on the government subsidies if this is the case - a 'modest' 20000 cars/year is nothing relative to the development costs of an entirely new car - in this group I would guess 100000 cars/year would cover things and also provide the Genesis with some of that critical 'market presence and recognition' , that Hyundai needs in general and also something that the Azera has never had. Pontiac is hoping for 40000 G8s/year FWIU which is fine - but only because it is anything but a 'new' car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Not exactly true, and here's why. The Azera is direct competition for the Max (current model) and Avalon. I'm sorry, I don't care how you carve it up...it is. Those shopping the likes of the 300C, will more than likely put the Genesis on their "test drive" list.

    If someone can afford to pony up the $6K for the Genesis, they may opt for the Avalon instead. That way, they get the security that FWD will offer them, Toyota reliability and everything the Avalon has to offer for that extra $6K. If they are indeed price sensitive...then they will hop their happy tails in fully loaded Azera and call it a day.

    The Genesis, on the other hand...will be an offering for those that are into the RWD sedans. Considering the Genesis is using a different suspension than the Azera...I truly believe the Genesis will offer the type of ride as expected of a car of the Genesis' nature. In all honesty, if Hyundai pulls it off...I see the Genesis being the classy performer that gives you the best of the 300C and the best of the Charger R/T & G8. Basically...a refined performer with all the bells and whistles. Which, being that kind of offering...split the difference in cost between the G8 & fully loaded 300C.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    " I've actually found the ride quality, NVH, for example, pretty much neck by neck, with the Azera having a slight edge."

    I have to disagree here. The 3.8 engine in the Azera while smooth is not the 2GR especially in the upper RPM ranges. As for ride, the Azera rides softer and that may be what you are comparing it to, but that is all subjective.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

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