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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    a big 10-4 on the government subsidies if this is the case

    No govt subsides. Home market. Hyundai sold at least 10,000 (probably like 12K or more) units last month, and it wasn't even a full month. Plus, the home market pricing is higher than the range here.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Pontiac is hoping for 40000 G8s/year "

    I am sure they can sell that many the question is: can they even produce that many for the US market?

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Hyundai already has one vehicle that approaces the $40K mark...the Veracruz. One thing I think that's helping it is the comparison that has been done between it and the RX350, and doing a good job of holding it's ground.

    The Genesis can benefit from the same (once it drops). If it holds it's ground well, against the cars it's competing against...the sticker won't be that much of a shock at all...considering everything you would be getting for the price.

    From the perspective of 'what you get for the money', my Azera has been more than worth every penny. I can only imagine that they learned their mistakes with the Azera and don't make the same ones with the Genesis.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the GTO was originally in high demand - Pontiac apparently limited to 'down under ' production capabilities as you suggest - and also a reason why apparently we don't get to see a RWD Impala, a car that 'sells' regularly 2-300000 copies a year but would need a new factory - that GM can't afford apparently.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I hate to use a cliche but you can literally hear a pin drop inside Azera's cabin when idle, at low speeds, or cruising; even at full-throttle, it is restrained. Hyundai has really done a good job in those departments such as NVH, ride quality.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Bob...I'm with you on this one. I was told that the Azera would run $30K when I first started looking at it. However, when I walked into the dealer and asked them to make me a deal...their very first offer sheet (no rebates or incentives) was $26,018...the sticker on the car showed $29,380. Is the car WORTH $30K? I would say yes, has anyone paid $30K for one...depending on the market you purchase one in...it's possible. However, overall...I think most are in the same situation as you and myself...ended up paying at least $3K below MSRP.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    GTO was limited in production numbers, but the revivial never caught on. There were already huge discounts in the first year (2004 IIRC) to get some respective numbers. It just went down hill from there in its three year run until 2006.

    Pity, a good vehicle.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I hate to use a cliche but you can literally hear a pin drop inside Azera's cabin when idle, at low speeds, or cruising; even at full-throttle, it is restrained. Hyundai has really done a good job in those departments such as NVH, ride quality.

    LOL The cabin is quite hushed during normal driving. At idle, I have to peek at the tach to make sure the car is even running. Heck, you don't even get any engine feedback through the steering wheel. However, under full throttle...the exhaust produces a nice, throaty growl. I'm not one for those loud raucus tuner exhausts, nor do I care for the loud, beligerent roar of free flowing exhausts on muscle cars. I DEFINITELY appreciate the sound of the Azera's exhaust under full throttle though. :shades:
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...over a year ago...the GLS model didn't exist. They orginally offered the SE and Limited, both with the 3.8L V-6. Then, for 2007...they added the 3.3L V-6 as the GLS trim level. Now...they dropped the SE model and now you can either get the GLS (3.3) or the Limited (3.8). The GLS starts out at $24,600K and the Limited starts out at $28,550K...MSRP.

    What would make you think the price would go down after subsequent model years? They may offer deeper rebaters or greater incentives than in the past, but the price usually doesn't drop unless the car is just doing pitifully in sales.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    One thing I think that's helping it is the comparison that has been done between it and the RX350, and doing a good job of holding it's ground.

    That's all good and dandy but now the question is:

    How well is the Veracruz selling compares to the RX350?

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Considering the RX330 has an established "following" and the Veracruz is a brand new, from the ground up offering...the sales won't compare to the Lexus. However, this wasn't a statement based on comparing sales. My statement was made in reference to folks willing to shell out close to $40K on a Hyundai. With the comparison successfully made to a Lexus vehicle...I think folks are more willing to spend it compared to if the Veracruz not having been compared to the RX350.

    Funny thing is...the Veracruz really isn't an RX330 competitor. It would actually compete more with the GM Lambda offerings, but the fact it can hold it's own against a Lexus offering is rather impressive for something by Hyundai. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Not exactly true, and here's why.
    the question is why would anybody be willing to spend that extra $6k when Hyundai already has enough trouble selling the Azera at $26k (or whatever). Don't believe there is a different buyer necessarily for a RWD large sedan - only one for a large sedan that costs X dollars. The Chrysler 300 only does well for its 'unique' styling and the nostalgic value of a 'Hemi', not because it is particularly remarkable as a 'full size' sedan. I don't believe the average buyer of a car in this class cares about FWD or RWD or FTM even knows the difference. You and I, perhaps, but we're anything but 'average' :)
    Also remember we are talking specifically about Hyundai buyers here, where those initial dollars are king - and premiums for things like Avalons (or about anything else) make no sense to them. IMO and as I said earlier, if Hyundai plans to make a success out of the Genesis as a Hyundai, then it needs to wave a fond adieu to the Azera.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I don't think Hyundai is having trouble selling the Azera; Hyundai USA hasn't been aggressively marketing the Azera (there have been marketing just not enough IMO). When few knows the existence of something, it's different than people skipping such product.

    And just to cover what you may respond, yeah yeah we don't see much Avalon marketing - the Avalon is an established model, the Azera is a brand new model unknown to the market.

    There is a good article from Chicago Tribune out recently reviewing the Azera, and they pointed out. A lot of industry people have said Azera is arguably one of the best kept secrets in the market, and I'd agree :)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Pity, a good vehicle
    with literally NO TRUNK - a typical GM quick 'fix' and certainly unremarkable in the styling dept. The honeymoon was indeed short.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    They don't have to.

    That is very true. Toyota stops advertising and it can still sell their cars by the lots ;) More reasons makers such as Hyundai has to be even more aggressive, to convince their products are up to snuff, and the general public gives a chance in the first place.

    This is good news, from today's Auto News, it ranks Hyundai just behind Toyota and Lexus nameplates (so #3?) in 2007 loyalty and sales conquest data ratings compiled by JD Power. This would suggest good satisfaction ratings, and ability to retain customers, among others. We'll have to check out the details when they are released.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Toyota stops advertising and it can still sell their cars by the lots "

    In all fairness Toyota has a much better dealer network than Hyundai has as well.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    What would make you think the price would go down after subsequent model years?

    A car that has been on the market for several years will typically have lower transaction prices than one on the market for 1 year.
  • gamlegedgamleged Posts: 442
    I like this title better! Reminds me of the back seat privacy curtains I recently saw in a Bachman as it was being dealer prepped... :shades:
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Absolutely true.. just look at the Lucerne $3500 rebate. That wasn't there in '06 when I looked at them The best rebate I have seen lately is on the Grand Marquis $5500!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I truly don't believe that Hyundai is having trouble selling the Azera. The problem is marketing...they just need to get the folks in the door. That is why I said...the Genesis can actually help the sales of the Azera. Those that get in the show room and feel that they don't want to spend $30K, but still want a nice car...they'll see the Azera for the mid-upper $20K's and slide into that instead.

    You claim the 300 only does well because of the Hemi, but most of the ones you see on the road aren't the C...most of them are the Touring model, so there goes THAT theory.

    So...you mean to tell me that if the 300 offered the same amenities and features as the Avalon, that it wouldn't matter to folks which one they chose??? That's crazy!!! First of all, you have too many folks that believe that FWD is the way to go. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on the whole folks not caring if a car is FWD or RWD.

    You would really LOVE to see the Azera go bye-bye, huh? Then the Avalon wouldn't have a direct competitor (from Hyundai) any more. I hate to say it, the Genesis would blow the Avalon out of the water, as well as the Max and any other car in the Mainstream Large Car segment! LMAO
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Really...thus the ever increasing prices of the Camry, Avalon, Accord, Max??? :confuse:
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    I disagree with a whole lot of what's being suggested here.

    First, Hyundai is not constitutionally incapable of producing a car with firmer shocks. It's as simple as handing your supplier a sheet of paper with a higher number on it. If they went to the trouble of developing this car's road behavior extensively in Europe with the express purpose of benchmarking German sedans, there's no reason to believe they won't come close to their spring and shock rates.

    Second, I'm not a prophet, so I can't say whether the Genesis will sell. But I think the suggestion that it will never ever appeal to BMW/Infiniti/Acura buyers, only to Chrysler 300C customers, is ridiculous. The Genesis buyer is not a 300C buyer. Although the 300C has RWD, what it's really all about is bling. The Genesis is a much subtler car, and its enormous advance buzz will draw looks from exactly the educated crowd that buys mid-size true luxury and launched Lexus.

    You guys are forgetting that we're heading into a serious recession here. Value versions of true luxury merchandise are perfectly positioned to benefit from it. As with the early years of Lexus, wealthy people will not all be too proud to shop smart.

    Finally, as for the notion that the Azera is doomed in this country: Maybe, but it's not a slam dunk. It's fair to assume that if the Genesis scores, Hyundai may well spin it off into a separate brand with its own showrooms in a few years. If that happens, you're looking at a situation similar to Toyota -- where the top offering in the mainstream dealerships is a stretched lux version of the family sedan, and the RWD models are confined to the luxury division. As long as the Grandeur makes money in Korea, Hyundai may decide that retaining the Azera is an inexpensive way to keep their options open.

    To me, the most ominous development for the Azera is the new Sonata Limited's sudden appropriation of all its exterior styling cues. This makes me wonder if Hyundai is positioning the Sonata Limited to take the Azera's place (which I think it doesn't quite manage).
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Although the 300C has RWD, what it's really all about is bling.

    300C = Bling? LMAO That's what the dealers have to add to it to push them out the door. Everywhere I go, I see Chrysler dealers with 300's all over the lot with aftermarket grilles and wheels added on by the dealer just to make them more appealing. The ghetto Bentley (as it's affectionately known in these parts) is quite bland without all the bling-age that folks add on. The novelty of it's ode to the past has really worn off, even Chrysler knows it. Have you seen the new Chrysler 300 ad on TV where they show a bunch of owners and how they fixed their particular 300 up?

    As far as the Sonata's facelift...I really don't think the Azera will suffer from it. I mean...look at how long the Altima and the Maxima looked similar. Heck...even the Sentra shared styling of the Altima and Max. Unless they make the Sonata bigger, the Azera will still hold it's own. If anything, I can see that Sonata Limited being something of a sportier version of the Azera. Sorta like what the Solara was for Camry (remember when it was Camry Solara?). However, in this case...it would remain a 4-door sedan.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Uh... I was saying that accelerating-wise the 3.8 Genesis should be evenly matched against the TL-S but as for right now I don't see the Genesis to hang with the TL-S handling-wise. So like you said, apparently the TL and Genesis are in different market segment and after different kind of buyers so I doubt how much thunder would the Genesis take away from TL. Not to mention that the next gen TL will be arriving next year fully equipped with SH-AWD...

    Personally I just think the near-luxury fullsize sedan segment (whether it's FWD, AWD or RWD) is too small of a market for Hyundai to field in two models.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Could we please stick to the topic here, which is not every car every manufacturer is making?

    If the manufacturer and its entire line up is of interest, there are plenty of topics on the Auto New board to accommodate any of that sort of conversation.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Pat,

    This wasn't a conversation about other cars not mentioned in the list above, they were mentioned as a reference to point something out. It's okay to talk about BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus, Rolls Royce and other makes without being prompted to come back to topic...why is that?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I think you misunderstood what thegraduate was talking about.

    He meant the price will go down for each subsequent model years WITHIN THE SAME GENERATION.

    However, just for argument's sake, car prices are actually getting cheaper if you take the inflation into consideration, especially for luxury cars.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think you misunderstood what thegraduate was talking about.

    He meant the price will go down for each subsequent model years WITHIN THE SAME GENERATION.


    Bingo, thus the Azera should only be cheaper than it was when I got my quote.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I have no doubt Hyundai has the capability to design cars that can hang with the Germans "objectively" but there are just certain "feels" in German cars that others are hard to emulate. Personally I am not a German fanboy and had never understood what the fuss is all about but apparently for some people, a car without that "feel" and "soul" is totally worthless. The major reason why the new CTS was universally praised about being drive like a German is because Caddy had decided to use the same suspension supplier as BMW. Go figure...

    As for suggesting that Genesis would appeal to the "BMW/Infiniti/Acura" crowd... First of all I would not put Acura in the same class as BMW/MB/Lexus and maybe even Infiniti. I am sure Genesis will be able to attract some TL potential buyers because generally speaking people going after Acura are the "luxury value shoppers" and that's exact the segment Hyundai want to conquest with the Genesis. On the other hand, BMW/MB/Lexus shoppers are going after prestige, brand image and the ultimate customer service (performance luxury on a value for Infiniti shoppers) where even brands like Acura and Volvo can't match and you think Hyundai will be able to compete?

    As for the 300, not all 300 shoppers are going after the "bling factor", many of them (if not the majority) like full size, luxury on a value, RWD and big V8. That, my friend, is exactly the population that Genesis is trying to reach out to.

    Sure we are going into a serious recession here but let's not forget, usually a recession effects more on people in the lower 3/4 of the pyramid rather than the top quarter. But who are the core buyers for all those luxury brands? You guessed it right, the top 1/4 people in the pyramid... Do you really think that group will also be the core buyers for the Genesis? If you do then you have a serious misunderstanding about how actually does the auto market work.

    I personally don't think Hyundai will ax the Azera and I agree that eventually Genesis will spin off to become a separate brand with a separate dealership network. If that's the case, wouldn't it be better to separate the name Genesis totally from Hyundai from the very beginning just like what Toyota did with Lexus?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Not necessarily true...especially if things have been added to the car since it's induction. However...does the price really drop? I think the MSRP stays pretty much the same and larger rebates/incentives are handed out and you see more sales.

    With the Azera...you can't even say that the last 3 years have seen the exact same car. The '06 rolled out with everything it offered, the in '07 they added XM and Euro signal repeaters on the side mirrors. The '08 model ushers in in-dash nav, upgraded sound system and a supposed suspension upgrade.
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