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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    One is entry level luxury, the other is near luxury...there's a difference.

    The reality is (based on how the market works) that both of them are near luxury. The differences are one is a RWD sedan with a sporty emphasis and another one is a FWD land yacht.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay...and if you look at it that way, they are STILL two different animals.

    However, based on they way they are putting it out there...the Genesis will offer more luxury than the Azera. Whereas the Azera gives you a taste of luxury with some of it's offerings, the Genesis will seem more so.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Okay...and if you look at it that way, they are STILL two different animals"

    Yes they are.... but hypothetically: say the Taurus or Impala was a Chrysler would it make sense to have that along side the 300? Its no different than the Azera/Genesis combo. Put the eggs in one basket and let it ride, otherwise you are just competing with yourself.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    And yet...Mopar offers the 300 as well as the Charger, right? FOMOCO offers the Taurus and Montego, right? What's sad is...they are mechancially identical machines. What's the difference?

    At least with the Azera/Genesis...they may share powerplants, but other than that...everything else about them is different.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    You see allmet33, your Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300 example is exactly the reason why some of us think the Genesis should be sold under a different brand with a separate dealer network.

    Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I hate to tell you this, but there ARE Dodge/Chryser dealers selling both on the same lot.

    However, with those being the same car with differing sheetmetal and different feels, the Azera/Genesis is nothing like that at all. Why can't a car company offer two large sedans? :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?

    Don't know about you, but most dealerships around here do just that.

    Jordan Frazier Chrysler Dodge Jeep - Bessemer, AL
    Greater Birmingham Chrysler Dodge Jeep - NE Birmingham, AL
    Benchmark Chrysler Jeep Dodge - East Birmingham, AL
    Jim Burke Chrysler Dodge Jeep Chevrolet - Downtown Birmingham, AL

    All of these are singular lots, not same name / different location dealers. This may not be all, just the first four I thought of.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Why can't a car company offer two large sedans?

    Of course it can but I just think it might be better with Genesis being sold under a different brand. Apparently Hyundai doesn't agree so let's just wait and see how well will the Genesis do.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Well... in my neck of the woods there aren't any places that sell the Taurus/Sable or the 300/Charger in the same building. All makes have corporate twins. I think we are talking about two different things.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Uh, the key word in this trick sentence is "sold."
    ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, they offer both anyway! :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Move the Azera over to the Kia side of things and leave the Genesis under Hyundai. I mean...the Azera is much better than the Amanti.

    After all...Hyundai and Kia are sister companies, right? ;)
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Veeeeery interesting idea, Allmet. Makes perfect sense for both brands in this country.

    My only worry: Does that create problems for how the two brands are marketed in Korea? Pretty safe bet that both models do better there than here. Personally, I have no idea whether it does.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I like the idea of Azera going to the Kia side. Makes perfect sense for both brands especially with Kia's need for a "proper" flagship sedan.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The reality is (based on how the market works) that both of them are near luxury. The differences are one is a RWD sedan with a sporty emphasis and another one is a FWD land yacht.

    That's funny, because every article I've read, every person I've talked to in the industry, no one has yet to categorize the Genesis as near-luxury. Yes, it is battling (in price) with many near-luxury/preimum sedans, but top to bottom, this is a luxury sedan by trade. Non-luxury makers make luxury cars, just as much as luxury makers make non-luxury cars.

    I think what you meant is perception, which is different than the actual product itself.

    With enough publicity, the perception will come around over time :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yes - but the Chrysler brand is premium compared to Dodge is it not. And I would imagine that Charger sales do poach 300 sales and vice versa - that being the problem of having two full size cars to sell.

    Is that really a problem??? As a company CEO, I wouldn't mind having that problem at all.

    Why are you suggesting that there is only one level of blue collar worker??? Why would you suggest that there aren't any that would be interested in buying the Genesis at the price it's being offered? Not everyone has your mindset.

    Why would the Azera be his better choice? If you're throwing gas prices out there, the Genesis would likely get about the same FE in 3.8 trim as the Azera does.

    They would be selling a more expensive car that's offering much more than the Azera does, why doesn't it make sense??? You guys keep making it seem as if the Azera and Genesis are evenly matched vehicles...they are not. With the Genesis, you're talking Lexicon sound system, self leveling HID's, XM & HD radio, Bluetooth, premium leather, UV reflective steering wheel, heated & cooled seats, smart cruise control, smart key...none of which comes in the Azera (save for XM).
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis (along with the coupe) is really meant to be an image maker for the brand, moreso than the product itself being successful in terms of sale. As mentioned earlier, Hyundai doesn't really need to sell a whole lot to be successful (mostly protected by the home market), but the intangible attributes created from the Genesis line are very much going to track up the brand.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Move the Azera over to the Kia side of things
    OK I'll bite - what makes the Azera really any different than the Amanti? Engine/tranny/chassis are now the same, size is the same - but do understand that the Amanti is even softer than the Azera - the ultimate ultimate Buick if you will. Isn't the Amanti honestly a rebadged Azera in the same way you might consider a Lucerne V8 a rebadged DTS or a Charger a rebadged 300?
    CR recently tested the current Amanti BTW, had good things to say about drivetrain refinement (the 3.8), and price (said they paid a bunch less than the $30k sticker) but faulted it for being too soft and for subpar reliability.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Personally, I feel as you do on this, however...for the sake of argument in this forum (naysayers refuse to concede that Hyundai is producing a luxury sedan). With the touch of luxury already shown by the Azera and using the premium sedans as benchmarks...why does it seem so far fetched that the Genesis IS a luxury sedan? Oh...that's right, too many have been brainwashed to believe that the brand name is what makes it luxury.

    I for one, can't wait to sit back and watch Hyundai change the game. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So should we stop talking about it here since this is a place for "mainstream" large sedans like the host has requested?

    I'll see you guys in the Luxury Lounge or ELLPS/ELLS boards for the continue on Genesis discussions.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...NOW the Amanti is the Azera twin with different sheet metal. Personally, the Amanti never looked like anything I wanted to jump in and go for a spin.

    Wow...if they praised the drivetrain on the Amanti, wouldn't that also mean the drivetrain on the Azera is being praised as well...they are the same. The Amanti would more than likely be even softer in ride quality compared to the Azera and the reliability thing may change now that it has the newer 3.8 powerplant in it. The Amanti suffers because of it's not so stellar history since it's been around for a minute.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Ask Mitsubishi and Mazda in the 90s and VW in the early 00s about how well did their "non-luxury makers make luxury cars" thingy go.

    So, those automakers attempted at making luxury/premium cars; the performance part is irrelevant at this point.

    This is exactly what Hyundai brings to the market - the company has made a luxury RWD sedan called the Genesis. How to the market preceives it is a whole different story althogether.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So, those automakers attempted to make luxury/premium cars; the performance part is irrelevant at this point.

    Really? You may want to check with VW...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I don't know...every car we've talked about is mentioned...Azera, Amanti, 300, Charger, Genesis. :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    is really meant to be an image maker for the brand
    while it certainly may do just that - why in the world spend literally hundreds of millions developing a 'ground-up' car when you could do the same thing for a lot less by just improving what you got? Or maybe, as you contend, what they got doesn't need much improving. Either way a whole lot more economical to be patient.
    Hyundai's existing product line is already quite extensive, been waiting for them to follow Toyota and Nissan into that province of America called the 'pick up truck' and further license out some hybrid technology.!
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    A luxury car that can be attained by the masses - what kind of idea is that? The world is coming to an end ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yeah, but none of them is "luxury" car like the Genesis right? Since Genesis is such a "luxury" car how does it fit in the "mainstream" large sedan forum? On the other hand if it's a "mainstream" large sedan like the Azera, Avalon and the rest how does that make it a "luxury" car?

    We are contradicting ourselves here!! :confuse:
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhh. Kia had been throwing the idea around of a pick-up sorta like the Avalanche, called the Mojave.

    Anyway...the Hyundai line-up is quite extensive. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, but none of them is "luxury" car like the Genesis right? Since Genesis is such a "luxury" car how does it fit in the "mainstream" large sedan forum? On the other hand if it's a "mainstream" large sedan like the Azera, Avalon and the rest how does that make it a "luxury" car?

    Maybe...because of price??? Outside of that, I wasn't the one that put the Genesis in this forum, that's a move that can be requested by posters, but ultimately...the moderator sets it up. So...ask Pat.

    Why can't the Genesis be the one car that changes definitions? Why can't it be a luxury car that fits in the Mainstream Large Sedan segment?

    You're only contradicting yourself if you're not open minded enough to accept the possibilities. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    they like the 3.8 for its 'refinement' (read smooth and quiet) but notably mentioned subpar FE - 18 mpg overall.

    The Amanti suffers because of it's not so stellar history since it's been around for a minute. And Hyundai has been around for what 'two minutes', in relative terms?
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