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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    We'll just have to wait-and-see what Hyundai has in its cards down the road :)

    I am not sure about a pickup, that may be a very risky move (w/ the pickup market itself)

    But hybrid and diesel is certainly in the plans for the near future, like most other automakers, plus LPG.

    Sorry for being off-topic :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The Azera...yeah, compared to how long the Amanti has been around. The Amanti came out when the XG came out...so it's got a 4 year jump on the Azera. Not to mention the pathetic engine it started with. The Azera hasn't cut it's teeth yet when it comes to establishing reliability...wouldn't you agree?

    FE is the one department that Hyundai/Kia could stand to improve.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Fine, I am the one that's close minded and I failed to see what a potential paradigm shifter the Genesis could be... So you are saying there is NO WAY IN THE BASEMENT that thing could turn out just the other way around? Okaaaaaaaaaay...

    I may not have an open mind but at least I know one thing: "luxury" and "mainstream" do not go hand-in-hand together. No matter how one spins it, as long as the thing is "mainstream" it is no longer "luxury". Flying was considered a luxury way of travel back in the 50s and 60s, how's that for today? Cars were considered as rich men's toys in the early 20th century, how's that for today?

    I am done arguing about this but whoever think that the Genesis is a "luxury" sedan apparently have no clue about what's in the minds of those luxury car owners.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I don't believe that even you 'Hyundai' guys can point to a specific car they manufactured within the last 10 years or so with 'pride'. Those 'disposable' Excels that were made thru the mid 90s were junk by anybody's definition, and this is the car that many associate with the brand. That is what I mean by 2 minutes, and a well 'earned' reputation it is , unfortunately. But, don't feel left out - those 'Detroit' manufacturers have also improved quality as well and also are still paying the price for what they manufactured about the same time....
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    with the Genesis belonging here or not belonging here, as I see it, is that we don't know whether its pricing makes it "mainstream" or not. Do we?

    My thinking has been until/unless we learn that it is not, we can talk about it, but I'm certainly willing to be educated on that point. :)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well Louis - see you're dead wrong - the Avalon is obviously a 'luxury mainstream sedan' just like the upcoming Genesis is. You're missing the ONE qualifier - heated/cooled seats! And I'm sorry if your IS/LS , your 7 series or whatever isn't so equipped, you get no ribbon - do not pass go- and go directly to the "econobox' forums! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    my problem with the Genesis or FTM the G8 being on this forum is that neither are cars that you can actually buy right now.
    The term 'mainstream' I believe to be a primarily price distinction - much like this forum used to be 'Large sedans under $30k' . The 'luxury' part of this is of no consequence, the car in question should by most of definitions be financially attainable - and I don't mean by some college kid that might have just landed his/her first job. That would keep things probably between $20 and $35k.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    The 'luxury' part of this is of no consequence, the car in question should by most of definitions be financially attainable - and I don't mean by some college kid that might have just landed his/her first job. That would keep things probably between $20 and $35k.

    You took the words right out of my mouth - I agree completely. But I think until we know for sure the price range of vehicles like the Genesis and the G8 and as long we have no reason to reasonably expect they will be out of the mainstream in terms of that definition, there is no reason to exclude them here.

    What we do need to exclude is the vehicles that clearly belong in another multi-comparison topic such as Midsize Sedans, Near Luxury Performance Sedans, Luxury Performance Sedans, etc.

    And we also need to exclude the never-ending brand wars, which somehow always manage to turn into Hyundai vs. whomever. As I've said a zillion times, there are topics on the Auto News board for those kinds of threads.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the announced starting prices and model price ranges for both cars would certainly indicate that both the G8 and Genesis would qualify - but we do spend an awful lot of time guessing what each car will actually be or do when there are no examples, reviews or road tests - which is kind of pointless?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Anyone and everyone is always free to change the subject - within the topic, of course. ;)
  • vic10vic10 Posts: 188
    Believe that was my suggestion about 30 pages ago. Following this thread is like watching a soap opera. Leave it for a couple of months and it hasn't progressed and you haven't missed a thing.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Oh, but like a soap opera, it is much more fun to see the non-progression not progressing on a day by day basis. :P
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    I don't really think that Chrysler is premium compared with Dodge. At one point that may have been the case but not anymore.

    Also, it is really only a problem to have two large sedans if they are not selling. If they are both winners then who cares.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    certainly all about perception - but a base Charger MSRP= $21k, 300 = $24k, top of line Charger SRT8 = $36k, 300C SRT8= $41k. More difference than I would have thought - guess maybe the 300 is standard with a bit more bling. Also note some rather heavy promotional discounts/rebates/financing now available on both- Chrysler is obviously having problems selling the thing but the US mfgrs. still try to maintain that illusion that a Chrysler is somehow 'better' than a Dodge, a Mercury is somehow better than a Ford, a Buick is 'better' than a Chevy etc. It might have worked 40 or 50 years ago, these days I think the consumer has wised up a bit.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    "luxury" and "mainstream" do not go hand-in-hand together.

    Is that how it is in YOUR mind? Come on now, running water can be a luxury to some.

    What is the definition of "mainstream"??? "generally used to mean that which is ordinary or usual with familiar appeal to the masses." (as defined on Wikipedia)

    Luxury - expensive high-quality surroundings, and the great comfort that they provide (as defined by Encarta Dictionary)

    Why in the world can't the luxury of the Genesis (high-quality surroundings and the great comfort they provide) be mainstream if the price gives it familiar appeal to the masses?

    Like I said, Hyundai is going to change the game with the Genesis.

    I am done arguing about this but whoever think that the Genesis is a "luxury" sedan apparently have no clue about what's in the minds of those luxury car owners.

    This has nothing to do with what's in the minds of those luxury car owners, this has to do with what the Genesis offers. You obviously have a limited understanding of what luxury is.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    re: having 2 full size sedans to sell
    Is that really a problem??? As a company CEO, I wouldn't mind having that problem at all.

    actually there is something called the 80-20 rule in corporate America (and beyond) - that you spend 80% of your time (and resources) selling 20% of your products. The resolution of this - get rid of that '20%' product.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Like I said, Hyundai is going to change the game with the Genesis.

    I don't think so, but we shall see.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Within the last 10 years??? The '02 Sonata. The underpinnings were already there from the previous model year and it had been doing well. However, it's quirky look didn't make it popular. However, in '02...going with fresh sheet metal on the outside, revamping the interior...made the Sonata a MUCH more appealing car.

    I agree with you on the Excel (even though I had one...an 87 that lasted to just over 250K miles).

    However, like I said...the Azera hasn't been around long enough to really say one way or the other that it's reliable or not.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Within the last 10 years
    sorry, bad use of the King's English - what I meant to say was that Hyundai couldn't point to a car made 10 years ago or more with 'pride', meaning anything from the late 90's and earlier - something you kinda confirm with your example of a 6 year old Sonata you thought was good. This, in a nutshell, is Hyundai's problem there are many of us that remember 10 years ago like it was yesterday.
    I think it could be successfully argued that the Japanese who produced a bunch of '[non-permissible content removed] Crap' back in the middle late 60s, started improving their product in the 70s, but really didn't establish a 'quality' reputation until the mid 80s. And even that was 'winning by default' because of what Detroit was doing at the time. It took something about 15 years to 'live down' their mistakes - now you think that this same kind of thing is going to change for Hyundai in less than half that time? And before you get upset, I'm not really knocking Hyundai's current products, just trying to support my contention that a Korean car is not yet thought of as a 'quality' product. This is the Azera'a problem and should also be the Genesis' problem as Hyundai tries to go upmarket with a product that is not perceived that way. 'Cart before the horse' as I said in an earlier post. It will likely change - eventually.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Putting it like that, I would have agree with you. Trust me, I was highly skeptical when I went to look at the '02 Sonata.

    However, putting it into the terms of what the Japanese makers went through...crap int he 60's, improvement in the 70's and quality by the 80's...that would mean, it's Hyundai's time. Crap in the 80's, improvement towards the end of the 90's, now we are well into the '00's with greater improvement and quality on the horizon. The thing that Hyundai has going against is are the established Japanese makers. Like you said, the the Japanese only had to overcome poor American offerings and that wasn't hard to do. Heck...even Hyundai has done that at this point.

    I hear what you're saying and the way Hyundai can change perception is be more aggressive at getting folks into the show rooms to actually see their products. I believe that Hyundai had to go upmarket to bring even more appeal to make folks want to come see what they are all about. The more appealing a product, the more interest can be generated, right?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that would mean, it's Hyundai's time
    convenient use of mathematics - lets see if 68 Toyota Corolla = bad, 78 Toyota Cor
    olla = better, 88 Toyota Corolla = good -that sounds like about 20 years. I'm not saying that it will take until 2022 for Hyundai to get the Sonata thought of as 'good', only that it is not realistic for the manufacturer to think they are going to change something like that in 6 years or so, that it took the Japanese maybe 20 to do. It should(and likely will) take less time if for no other reason than they have a bunch of good examples out there.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Actually...it's possible for them to get it right in less time by having examples out there. Toyota, Honda & Nissan (Datsun) didn't have that luxury. So it's possible for Hyundai to produce a good quality product in less time, however...getting the public to see it and buy into it...that's the problem. In Hyundai's case, it'll take longer for them to change perception than it will to build quality. That is why i said they should be lookin to be aggressive at getting folks in the door. Another reason why I said the Genesis can help them. Folks come in to see that, they'll see the other offerings as well.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    it'll take longer for them to change perception than it will to build quality
    EXACTLY, just as it did Toyota, Nissan, and Honda (to a lesser degree) some 20 or 30 years ago.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I can see the logic in that thinking, however...what company is spending 80% of it's time & resources to sell 20% of it's product???
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    Azera and soon to be launched Genesis are considered "large" sedans. Note how the exterior specs. compare with the 535I.

    Azera Genesis 535I
    W/B 109.4 115.6 113.7
    Length 192.7 197.0 191.1
    Width 72.8 73.3 72.7
    Height 58.7 58.7 57.8
    Curb Wt. 3,629 3,732 3,660

    Curb weight for Azera is with 3.8, Genesis engine was not listed,

    The point to this is Azera will appear "smaller" to Genesis on the showroom floor, much like the "5" series compared to the "7".
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    it happens all the time - to all kinds of businesses - this 'off-topic' for sure but do a search on 'Pareto' - if you really want to know.
    As this kind of thing would apply to the Azera/Genesis:
    assumming that Hyundai is spending a bulk of its advertising budget on the Genesis - but because that particular car then only represents a small fraction of their sales - what this 'rule' says is discontinue the Genesis. However given the investment that Hyundai has obviously made in the Genesis, a desire to improve the company image etc., it would seem more likely they do the reverse, i.e. kill the Azera. IF they do find buyers for the higher priced Genesis, doesn't it seem logical that Hyundai would want to kill the Azera simply because they make more money selling us the Genesis for several thousand more? I would wager that Toyota makes more money selling me one Avalon for $34k, then it does selling me two Corollas at half that price. Just a thought, and a whole lot of conjecture
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...outside of the Superbowl ads...there hasn't been anything else other than the buzz generated by them. Currently...Hyundai has ads out for the Soanta and the Santa Fe...that's about it. So in their reality, they spending about 20% of their time & resources trying to sell 80% of their product! LOL

    Personally...I don't feel a need to kill off the Azera. There's a market for both the Azera and the Genesis. However, time will surely tell.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    RWD sedans are generally less space efficient primarily because of space taken by things like driveshaft humps, rear drivesahft/suspensions - the number I don't see is interior/trunk volumes - it wouldn't surprise me if the Azera isn't bigger than the other two despite being a bit smaller externally. So if I am on that showrroom floor I guess I'm not wanting to sit in one?
    BMW has always done a pretty good job maximizing interior volumes in a RWD layout, but I would be surprised if the Azera isn't larger inside than even a standard 7 series never mind the 5 series, as is an Avalon or 500/Taurus.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "RWD sedans are generally less space efficient"

    I always find it amazing that my Avalon has much more room inside than a Grand Marquis/Town Car despite being probably 2' shorter.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the CV/GM/TC perhaps the worst examples of 50-60s vintage design - the cars that will actually surprise you IMO are those 5 series BMWs and the like - they are not nearly as small as you might assume they would be interior wise , despite the RWD and some rather 'compact' exterior dimensions etc.
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