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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    yep, forgot about the Stanza - and this from somebody that owned and autocrossed - a 510 - more years ago than I would care to admit.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Sorry...the Altima replaced the Stanza. That's like saying the Max existed prior to '83 as the 510. The Stanza was the mini-Max back in the day though.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    mainstream large sedans
    mainstream large sedans,

    Let's all say it together

    mainstream large sedans

    I promise you guys that we have discussions all over the place that fit what you want to talk about and if this is not the right one, I'll be glad to help you find what is.

    mainstream large sedans
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Posts: 228
    Also it would be nice if we could go 24 hours without mentioning Azera or Avalon. :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Why? Those are actually ON TOPIC!
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Posts: 228
    Yes I know, but they have been monoplizing the discussion for the past several thousand posts!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The best way to guide the discussion is to create your own new topic within the thread. By all means please do!
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    you are comparing CVT to Auto and in most mags still 04 maxima beats 08 Altima. Unfortunately when I showed my wife Sonata and Azera in H dealership she could not find any differences in driving, interior or even exterior to justify extra $ for Azera.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Also it would be nice if we could go 24 hours without mentioning Azera or Avalon"

    Why? They are the top of the class and what the rest are judged on. It also doesn't hurt that the biggest contributors to this forum happen to be Av or Az owners.

    I am free to discuss any car listed here. I have driven them all in one form or another (some at length) so ask away.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Not sure what she looks for in driving, but there is a difference in driving characteristics between the Azera and the Sonata. My next question would be...which trim level Sonata did you look at and which trim level Azera was compared to it?

    Certainly, it would make no sense at all to compare the Sonata Limited to an Azera GLS. If that were the case, I would take the Sonata over the Azera. However, comparing the Sonata Limited V-6 to the Azera Limited...I would take the Azera.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The other cars get mentioned here and there, but since there aren't any owners of those cars frequenting the forum...the disussion doesn't last long.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    I don't remember unfortunately
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Now you know you were supposed to be paying attention. You know a statement like that was going to bring questions.

    Do yourself a favor and go back and try both cars in their top trim level, decked out and let me know if there really isn't any difference between the two. ;)
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    there is no need for me to do it. We already found our 2nd ride.
  • robtroxelrobtroxel Posts: 103
    One thing about the Avalon is that they have great outside mirrors, since they stick out big time. the bad news is that they do not fold, even manually. This is a serious omission when you consider every other car in this category. has this >including the cheaper Accord. It cost me 500 bucks to fix damage done to a mirrior. The Camry has the same issue. They seem to think you need to upgrade to the Lexus to have this sensible feature. I'll downgrade to the Accord and save a bundle.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Well if you want a smaller car, with a now questionable V6 that many are having issues with the cylinder deactivation go for it. The larger heavier Avalon gets the same power and FE w/o the use of cylinder deactivation. I really don't think that the lack of folding mirrors is a glaring ommission on an otherwise great car.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Well if you want a smaller car, with a now questionable V6 that many are having issues with the cylinder deactivation go for it.

    Would you care to elaborate your thinly veiled statement? Cylinder deactivation serves two purposes: fuel economy and reduced emissions. The Avalon running on all 6 cylinders produces more greenhouse pollution, than an engine running on two cylinders. Fuel economy is function of drive ratio as well as engine efficiency. The latter may be a more efficient engine.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Over on the Accord board there is a whole discussion with over a thousand posts I think the title is "2008 Honda Accord VCM" or something to that effect. From what I read people are not happy with the transition from V6 - V4 - slant 3 some complaining of excess vibration and a whole host of issues.

    The whole point of my post was a person smashes their mirror and blames it on the car. To which my response was drive a smaller car with some "teething" problems to get your folding mirrors. And before I get flamed here... yes I know Yota had their problems with tranny software and the first couple hundred six speeds. I am sure Honda will sort it out as Toyota did.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • robtroxelrobtroxel Posts: 103
    The Accord is now rated as Full size and the interior volume is virtually the same. What is inflated would be the Avalon selling price vs a similarly equiped Accord !. Toyota quality control is slipping..check the JD Powers reports and then think about that not ready for prime time 6 speed auto tranny they unleased on the public with the Camry. VCM has been around a long time on other models so I'll wait and seewhat really happens based on consumer Reports and JD Power before I buy. Thanks for the tip !Now then, back to the folding mirrors..they should be standard and they certainly could afford to do this easily. They save money by removing the goofy door covering the radio. Over all I give the Avalon a solid "B". Too bad I paid an A+ price..don't kid your self tjc78>>it's not a Lexus!
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    OK.. lets start out by saying that the Accord is only classified as a large car (by interior volume) on models without a moonroof go sit in the backseat of the Accord and you will certainly see how it is considerably smaller than an Avalon.

    The six speed tranny problems were in the hundreds of units. Toyota sold almost half a million Camrys in '07. That isn't all that bad IMO. No manufacturer it perfect. None!

    Over all I give the Avalon a solid "B". Too bad I paid an A+ price..don't kid your self tjc78>>it's not a Lexus!

    You're right its not a Lexus. The full size Lex is over double the price. The ES350 while nice is Camry sized and has a small back seat. Remember the ES350 shares running gear with the Av and Camry. Honestly, if the Avalon is a "B" find me a full size (real full size, not cheating like Accord/Sonata) vehicle that can even come close to the Avalon under 40K. The only thing that comes to mind is the Azera.

    As for the folding mirrors, I could care less either way. Unless you are driving something like a Tahoe or Navigator I just don't see the need.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Posts: 228
    if the Avalon is a "B" find me a full size (real full size, not cheating like Accord/Sonata) vehicle that can even come close to the Avalon under 40K. The only thing that comes to mind is the Azera.

    How about the 2008 Taurus/Sable? I just bought a Sable Premier for about $25000 out the door. I really like it, and may be the best car I have ever driven:
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f166ea9.f166af7/23
    There are some great deals to be had on these cars:
    http://www.dalejarrettford.com/ad/DaleJarrettAd.pdf
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you pay attention to that forum (2008 Accord VCM) you'll notice that most people are repeat posters who say the same thing over and over (AND OVER) again, and many of them are posting about having no problems.

    While I do believe there are a select few with problems, I don't think it is as widespread as those on the forum make it out to be. Of course, if I had one of the problematic vehicles, I'd raise a stink over it to, so I don't blame anyone.

    Back to the fullsize cars? :)
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Posts: 154
    The full size Lex is over double the price. The ES350 while nice is Camry sized and has a small back seat. >

    If I may, I'd like to interject my 2 cents here...When I was in the market for a new car, I basically had it narrowed down to 2 vehicles, Buick Lucerne and the Avalon. One day while actually driving to Toyota dealership to drive the Avy, my eye was caught by this dark colored car that came flying by me.. turns out it was the ES350. Really caught my eye.. went to the Lexus dealer and started shopping. I will admit that the Lexus in my opinion is a little "fancier" inside, and has an appealing body line. Comfort wise I was not impressed. It was ok, but certainly didn't feel as roomy to me as the Avy. And if memory serves me correctly both the avy and the ES350 use the exact same power plant. When I went back over to the Toyota dealership I realized why the ES350 caught my eye.. because in my opinion the avy and the 350 have alot of similarities. and I couldn't see why I should spend more just so I can own a so called "status symbol".. I've owned vehicles in the past that greatly outprice the ES350, but this time around I was looking for a blend of comfort, good power and good fe. all three of which I found in the avy, and for less than the price of the lexus. Not knocking the lexus, i'm sure it's a fine car, but for me the lexus "L" couldn't justify the difference in cost. JMO



    As for the folding mirrors, my wifes Envoy has em,.... I don't think that in the 2 years we've owned that vehicle, that we've ever folded the mirrors in once. so for people like us, it's really a non issue.

    Roland
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    get back to the vehicles that are on topic here.

    Thank you.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "How about the 2008 Taurus/Sable?"

    I just don't think it is up to par with the Avalon/Azera on numerous levels (interior and engine mainly). For the initial dollar amount, may not be able to beat it, (especially the base model Taurus). However, remember.. with the rebates and low selling price resale will be horrid. Not an issue if you are keeping it 10 years, but certainly if you want to trade out in 3 or 4.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • robtroxelrobtroxel Posts: 103
    If you examine the specs, the Accord has more front leg room >much more hip room than the Avalon. The Avalon certainly wins in the back seat area leg room but I don't sit there and really appreciate the extra driver space. If you shift the cost analysis down to near 30 K, what comes close to the Accord EX with Nav?(Toyotas Avy nav is cumbersome to use having to stop to enter new destinations etc) Finally. the folding mirrors are found in all the 40 K plus cars and the<under 30 K Accord. Even the new Chevy Malibu has them. Like many of you I never gave this a thought until someone caught a passenger mirror on my Avalon in a parking lot. The door frame was actually distorted too. The body shop said if the mirror had folded, it would have cost 90 bucks to fix instead of over 500. In this day my suggestion in that there are many alternatives out there since we bought our Avalons. Side by side I don't see $8 grand difference to justify another Avalon even though it has been a good car and maybe the best car a couple of years ago..others like the Accord rate about as high and seem to have a higher percentage of residual value. I appreciate eveyone's input for there is really no "right" or "wrong" here whatever one's car choice might be. For me the "only a Toyota" blinders are off. There is some great competition out there to choose from!
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Took my Azera in for an oil change 25,000 mi (using synthetic) and my service manager told me that his mechanics are scheduled for Genesis training in May. So, I am guessing delivery's sometime in June here in Denver. My average mileage is back over 24 and apparently consistent with another Azera owner who was also in for an oil change. Still absolutely NO problems. Still on original tires, and just rotated them. Discount Tire seems to think another 5,000+ without any trouble.

    Drove home from the mountains last night in a snowstorm. Road was solid icy/slushy and Azera handled it easily, but with everyone being careful. Love that traction control and Electronic Stability Control. I understand by 2009 all cars with be required to have that capability.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    why would you not be comparing your EX/Nav. with a Camry XLE/Nav - same price and much closer in size. Accords and Avalons - apples and oranges - but it has been many many years since we had a Toyota or a Honda that warranted the exclusion of the other - as you say lots of good choices.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Took my Azera in for an oil change 25,000 mi (using synthetic)
    Sure hope that wasn't your first one - not even a good synthetic can be relied on for that! ;) Also use synthetic and IMO so should everybody else.
    Getting 30k miles on a set of OEMs probably means some Bridgestones or something 'cheap' because it is nothing to write home about. Heck, I had 48k on my Av's Michelins and they had maybe another 10k tread left when I replaced them!
    Would suggest to you that if you are driving anywhere near hard enough that you know about your TC/ESC then one of a number of things is happening: 1) the mfgr. has set intervention levels too low and/or 2) you are driving too fast for the conditions and/or 3) the systems aren't working right. They ought to be transparent in 'normal' driving. Thought that 2010 is the year that our erstwhile government is requiring the 'nannies' BTW.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Not knocking the lexus, i'm sure it's a fine car, but for me the lexus "L" couldn't justify the difference in cost.

    The ES350 is just a glorified Camry V6 XLE, period.

    People who are buying that car are clearly looking for status symbol with the industry leading customer service and dealership experience. To be honest, I couldn't justify buying an ES350 (I'd go with either an Avalon or Camry V6 XLE) but I can understand why people are buying it.
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