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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    close to the invoice on any GS350 and IS250.
    a V8 GS or the IS350 in that much higher demand?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    a V8 GS or the IS350 in that much higher demand?

    I am not sure it's the "demand", I think Lexus just decided that they aren't going to make too many of those. We can probably expecting to see the same thing on the Genesis V8 and G8 GT.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Not necessarily true...if the G8 is THAT hot, they won't have to mark the price down. As we've seen with the Azera...it was not hot at all in the beginning (not saying it is now) and the prices had to be dropped to get them moving. Heck, folks didn't even know they were in the dealerships and when they did show up...there was only a few to choose from.

    With the G8 being in publications as being tested and performance attributes being raved about...there will be considerable hype built up. Usually with hype, comes demand and with demand...steady prices.

    As far as the difference with the Genesis, I still think you're comparing two different animals. If the G8 were being touted as a luxury performance sedan, then I could see a problem between it and the Genesis. The Genesis is being touted as a luxury sedan for the working class (in a nutshell). Will the G8 have the rich feel on the inside, I doubt it...it's a performer and not being touted as anything else. Is the Genesis being touted as a performer....no, it's being touted as a luxury sedan whose benchmarks include the likes of the E/M/and 5er.

    Based on what you're saying...if the G8 is THAT serious, then why would one even want a 5er for that matter?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    ...then why should I spend the $4 or 5k more for a Hyundai?

    To answer your question Captain, it would depend on what type of car you really want. Don't you think? If one wants the look and feel of luxury...you certainly aren't going to get that with the G8...now will you?

    It also goes beyond folding mirrors, rain sensing wipers and a simple nav system. Heated & cooled seats, HID headlights (self leveling), Lexicon entertainment system, back up camera, satellite radio ready, bluetooth...

    Yeah...I would pay $4-5K more for the Genesis over the G8. The G8 simply isn't my taste for a car to own. Does that stop me from admiring its attributes...heck no. Heck, if the Maxima were offered in RWD form, it would give the G8 & Genesis in V-6 form some serious competition!!! Even by it being FWD, it could still quite possibly give it some comp.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    As gas soars to $4/gal and more, it's a grand ol' time to release good ol' thirsty American vehicles.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Based on what you're saying...if the G8 is THAT serious, then why would one even want a 5er for that matter?

    I spent a good amount of seat time in a 550/650. There is a serious level of refinement and luxury in those products. I will not believe the G8 is at that level. I am not saying the G8 isn't capable, I am saying 99% of people who can buy a 550i would not say the G8 is the same car for less money.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yes...but if someone just wants the sheer power and driving enjoyment that the G8 seemingly offers, it would seem that one could pay a lot less than a 5er and still have some serious fun. I'm not saying the characteristics of both machines would be similar or comparable, but you have some that would be willing to save that much coin to overlook the "refinement" the BMW offers.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the look and feel of luxury...you certainly aren't going to get that with the G8...now will you?
    have you seen pictures of or read the reviews the G8 is getting>? There ain't much lacking even vs. a Genesis. I guess my real point is that if we know the G8 has made a 'joke' out of the 300/Chargers competitively than doesn't it do the same thing to the Genesis? An interesting contradiction - a Hyundai that isn't some sort of 'value' leader.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I've SEEN the G8 in person, looked on the inside...there is nothing that lends itself to a luxurious feel. The reviews the G8 is getting is more about it's performance than anything.

    From a technology standpoint...the Genesis is head and shoulders above the G8, from a performance standpoint...the G8 is head of that class. The Genesis is also making a joke out of the 300/Chargers...what's the point?

    If you just look at the G8 and the Genesis as just two cars, your'e right...Hyundai isn't the value leader. However...can Pontiac produce the G8 with EVERYTHING the Genesis comes with and still beat it out in pricing...I doubt it HIGHLY.

    Go look at the standard features and available options for both cars and tell me again that the G8 offers everything the Genesis does. Betcha can't do it! ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Oh, with the advertising and limited quantity at limited dealerships strategy you can bet yours bacons that the Genesis will be hot at the beginning. So will the G8. So expecting around MSRP for both at the time of release. However, I can see that the prices for both will be dropped to a more reasonable level (midway between MSRP and invoice) after 6 months of the initial release. Anyway, the bottom line is that NO CARS (except limited production models) will be selling at close to MSRP after the initial crave has died down.

    If the G8 and Genesis are different animals then the 5er and E/GS are different animals too. The fact is that both the G8 and Genesis are competing in the same segment and have similar pricing, the only difference is that one is more luxurious and another is the better performer. Another example, would you consider that the Maxima does not compete directly with the Azera/Avalon?

    People want a 5er because it's a BMW and THEY CAN AFFORD IT. Heck, if I have to choose between the two and don't have to drive around 15k miles a year I would pick the 535i in less than a nanosecond!

    Geez, you really need to do something about that reading problem of yours... I brought up the IS250 just to make a case that even a Lexus does sell around invoice sometimes so that's not a "privilege" for Hyundai. Where did I ever compare it with the Genesis? As matter of fact, I didn't even compare the GS350 with the Genesis, I just wanted to point out that even cars under the luxury brands do sell at well below MSRP so you can expect the G8 to do so as well. Don't believe me? Here is an example:

    IS250 w/ luxury package MSRP: $35,985
    IS250 w/ luxury package Invoice: $31,478
    IS250 w/ luxury package TMV: $32,246

    That's $3.7K below MSRP and a merely $800 over invoice!!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    can Pontiac produce the G8 with EVERYTHING the Genesis comes with and still beat it out in pricing...I doubt it HIGHLY.
    of course they can. How much do you honestly think it costs Hyundai to put all those doo-dads you listed in #5945 in the Genesis - maybe a grand? And Pontiac can't do the same thing?
    Perhaps it is more a case of Pontiac not wanting to go someplace competitively where it knows it doesn't belong.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    No...I don't need to address a reading problem, as you see...I went back and deleted that section because I understood what you were saying. Thank you.

    Also...thank you for pointing out what I've been saying...the Charger/300 prove the point. The Charger is less than the 300. The 300 is more luxurious than the Charger and those that choose the "luxury", they pay more for it, right? EXACTLY what I'm trying to say...those that want the luxurious feel...will pay more. If they simply want performance, then they won't.

    I do agree with your assessment of how it might go with the pricing intially. However, hype on the Genesis could cool down if Hyundai doesn't come up with something else between now and it's actual release. I mean...two ads during the Superbowl were great, but nothing since then...not good.

    The current Maxima is more direct competition for the Avalon & Azera. The upcoming Maxima...well, I hate to admit it...will be setting the standard for the others to catch up to IMO. I mean...the interior of the 2009 Max is much, much more than it ever was. It has that quality of making one want to be in it, that it lacked before (for me). The only thing left to really find out is the driving dynamics of the machine. All this means now is that the large mainstream segment bottlenecks at the top and it'll really depend on one's preferences as to what they'll get.

    Right now as it stands...Azera wins bang for the buck. Avalon wins best overall in terms of cost to operate and fuel economy as well as having the best all around ride. It would seem the Max would win in terms of driving enjoyment for those that like a more performance oriented ride. Personally, I don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the 3 to be honest.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay...you keep thinking that. The point is...the G8 does NOT offer all the Genesis does. Like I said, go and compare the standard features and available options...go ahead.

    ...a case of Pontiac not wanting to go someplace competitively where it knows it doesn't belong.

    A reason why I respect Hyundai for being progressive AND aggressive for trying to break the mold. One company with the ability to offer a little of everything.

    It was said earlier that luxury is something that someone is willing to pay a little more for. Even with the Genesis at the price it's being offered, it's an extreme value and places luxury within reach of those that normally wouldn't be able to afford it. Is that worth $4-5K more than a G8? It is for those that want the luxury.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Prior to Hyundai started offering equipment such as NAV, HID for the US market, some people were complaining why Hyundai couldn't have them available, when most of the competition did...this was also the case on a few other automakers and vehicles.

    Having them as options, at least, give choices, especially for vehicles sold in the 30s, which isn't cheap for the masses.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    two ads during the Superbowl were great, but nothing since then

    This is brief plan on the Genesis from Hyundai USA, in terms of marketing and advertising:

    We’re going to have a long presell to get people familiar with the idea. We’ll start with some invitation-only rides, where people can drive the car not just at an event, but for up to a week. We will put the car in the hands of opinion leaders, like politicians, journalists and other VIPs. At the same time, we’ll have ride-and-drive events for consumers. In the spring you will start to see teasers, like theater spots, and the print will begin.

    We’re aligning ourselves with Concours d’Elegance [a national tour that presents luxury autos at high-end venues] as a backdrop to a ride-and-drive event. But we’ll also begin to align ourselves with some new brands, which we are figuring out right now. We are going to align ourselves with golf in places that we haven’t been before, and some premium restaurants as well. This is going to be the biggest Hyundai campaign ever, and it’s going to go pretty hard.

    We’ll still have some of the same kind of platforms, of course. The Genesis will have a strong Internet campaign [Hyundaigenesis.com launched earlier this month]. And we’ll broaden our TV buys, including Monday Night Football [on ESPN] and Fox NFL football. We will continue to do our NBA stuff.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Of course...all this remains to be seen. September (the supposed release timeframe) will be here before they know it.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The car will arrive in June, based on what I have been told. And all of the invitations and drive-and-ride events will take place in the spring.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Spring is already upon us and when the Auto Show was here in DC, the Hyundai rep stated the Genesis would hit the show rooms at the end of summer. I'm not saying your info is wrong or mine is right, but there is nothing consistent to go by at this point. I've spoken with other folks that have attended the Auto Show in other cities and they were pretty much all told that the Genesis would drop around the end of summer. :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    running a tad late, isn't it?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    What dropping at the end of summer? Heck, I remember when I was told the Genesis would be released in the Spring of '08 as an early '09 model. However, if it's going to roll out as an '09...end of summer is about right. A lot of new models usually drop in the fall.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    CR has the car in its '08 new car issue - so they wouldn't be the only ones that thought it would be here by now. Have to wonder if Hyundai doesn't lose some 'shock' value because of the G8. I'm no marketing genius, but don't you get a whole lot of potential customers POed when you advertise something in January and February and then not be able to buy one for 6 or 7 months
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Then CR needs to have their facts checked. Hyundai has not fooled anyone; Hyundai has said time after time the car would be available for the US market in summer 2008, and not now. Those SuperBowl ads even ended with the word "Summer 2008" (IIRC) - kinda like a early movie preview :shades:

    It would only make sense Hyundai takes this time to prep the launch, especially since they have a lot of areas planned (see a few posts earlier for some of the details). I think we can all agree there is a lot riding on the arrival of the Genesis, much more than that Pontiac. Hyundai almost has to come out perfect and there is little room for botching its biggest launch to date...

    By the way, those superbowl ads take on more meaning than just some marketing of a new car but that is for another topic altogether...
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I didn't mean the first day of spring, per se :)

    I will see if I can poke some more details on the arrival. Regardless, don't be surprised if some dealers receive their shipments earlier than others (that actually is the case on most other vehicles as well). Also, similar to Nissan's GT-R, certain Hyundai US dealers will not receive the Genesis sedan.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    I agree with Allmet 100% -- the resemblance between these two cars ends at their dimensions and rear-drive configuration.

    I, too, have personally seen, inspected and sat in both cars. The Genesis is worlds more luxurious in ambience, materials and equipment. The G8 is rather spartan, with a lot of gray-black and plastic aluminum, and exudes the intent to go fast for cheap (relatively speaking). They will not share an audience.

    In all candor, there are only two possible explanations why Captain2 seems to consistently say such implausible things. One is that he loves the attention that comes from making "controversial" (i.e., silly) statements. For the sake of charity, I'll assume it's that reason and not the other one.
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    IMO, probably Pontiac and not because of quality perceptions - more like that Pontiac is generally accepted as a source of performance cars

    Other than the recent, and now discontinued GTO, what other "performance cars" is Pontiac featuring?
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    Other than the recent, and now discontinued GTO, what other "performance cars" is Pontiac featuring?
    Pontiac has a very long history in racing: NASCAR in the fifties and sixties, Trans Am in the late sixties and early seventies, as well as being very active in drag racing for years. They have fielded an exotic road racer most recently. Their Trans Am models have been in the marketplace until very recently, and if you've ever driven a WS6 T/A, you'd know what performance is.
    They may not have had a performance car for the past couple years, but, IMO, most Americans have no problem with tying Pontiac with perfomance. Hyundai, OTOH, may have fielded a World Rally Car ( a series that is basically unknown in the USA ), but what's their racing history?
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    Woops, forgot the Solstice, which in GXP configuration has 260HP in about 3000 pounds - it'll outgun anything Hyundai offers here.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Pontiac has a history (and ancient one, in car standards) of true performance, but all they have at the moment is a forced-induction 4-cylinder Miata fighter. Hardly a "performance lineup" from Pontiac.

    I will say that Pontiac is the sportiest make in GM's mainstream lineup. Through the 80s and 90s that was because of the Trans-Am and plastic body cladding. In the 21st Century, they haven't had anything notable though.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Not so much 'is featuring' as 'has featured'. The 'excitement' blurb that Pontiac has used for years and years - even though some of thier offerings were anything but is not like the didn't try. Those original GTOs that provided a foundation for the 'muscle car era, the abortive attempt to reincarnate it you mention, and/or about any Firebird, or supercharging the 3.8 V6 into misc. the Grand Ams/GPs, or trying the V8 in a Grand Prix, or the more current Solstice. I think the perception is that if GM is going to have a 'performance car' it will probably have a Pontiac logo on it first - and probably why GM (other than limiting volume) chose the Pontiac name (instead of Buick or Chevy) for the G8.
    There are a number of mfgrs. that cultivate a performance image IMO - Nissan and Pontiac for example and also a number of mfgrs that don't have that kind of image - Toyota and Hyundai among those. The comment was meant to suggest that Pontiac may have a little easier time selling something like the G8 than Hyundai will have selling the Genesis - simply because I believe people expect that kind of car from them.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The funny thing here is that some dealers were led to believe that the Genesis was coming the early part of '08 as well. The guy I speak to regularly who has been on point with everything he's mentioned (with the exception of the Genesis) even mentioned a Spring '08 release of the Genesis.

    As far as the ads during the Superbowl...even Hyundai had to have speculated a release earlier this year. Why would you show the world your next offering and not roll it out 'til 8 months later??? That makes little to no sense at all. You don't see movie previews 8 months in advance, do you?

    Hyundai almost has to come out perfect and there is little room for botching its biggest launch to date...

    Seems like they are already botching it up. They show the Superbowl ads, which would lead everyone that saw it to believe it was going to be arriving soon. Now that I have though about it...Hyundai hasn't shown anything else about the Genesis because they don't want to kill the hype behind it by showing ads for it for the next 8 months. However, they have lost a little credibility because everyone that saw those ads is looking around wondering, "Where's that new Hyundai???"

    Heck...even the folks at the Pontiac stand said the G8 was slated to hit the showrooms 6-8 weeks after the autoshow at the end of January. Well...they are already at dealers here in the DM Metro area.
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