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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Welcome to the wonderful world of General Motors management and planning!

    You really have to wonder what's going on (or maybe not going on) in the minds of GM's corporate planning management division...
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    What about Ford Taurus having more HP than Lincoln Town Car? Similar thinking still exists at Ford.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Similar thinking still exists at Ford

    I see your point, but, the TC/GM/CV have one foot in the grave already. I would say without fleet sales they would be gone. The TC in its current form dates back to 1990 with only sheet metal changes. The "panther" platform I believe goes back to 1980! Still they are surpisingly good driving/riding cars other than being totally uncompetitive in their respective classes.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The Town Car having less HP than a Taurus can simply be the thinking that the Town Car is aimed at older retirees who just want solid transportation and don't need all the HP found in the likes of the Avalon, Maxima, Azera, ect. I'm not saying all retirees think like that, but there is a great many that do as evidenced by the number of "old" folks you see driving Town Cars, Grand Marquis and Crown Vics.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "old" folks you see driving Town Cars, Grand Marquis and Crown Vics.

    In my town the "old" folks drive 750s, AMG 500s, etc. :surprise So I don't have a basis of "comparison".
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    GM has a V-6 that's capable of producing the same numbers as the 4.6 in the CXL Special Edition
    actually that V6 (with DI the 3.6 can exceed 300hp) is also capable of matching the V8 in the Super - $40k for a Buick is OK because nobody who actually buys the things expects to pay even 'invoice' for it. Kinda of a Catch-22 for a number of manufacturers these days and not limited to just GM/Buick - but the pricing theory does work, overprice something that you intend on discounting heavily and the customers somehow think they got something for nothing when, in fact, they only got exactly what they were willing to pay for. Does wreak havoc with those resale values though, and a jewelry/furniture store type of philosophy that only proves PT Barnum's adage?
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    the Town Car is aimed at older retirees who just want solid transportation

    The only reason that the platform is even around is because of the fleets. Ask any NY cabbie and many law enforcement personnel what the vehicle of choice is. The cars can take a beating. The TC survives because they are making the CV anyway. IF Ford wanted to they could have dropped in the 4.6L DOHC from the Mark VIII anytime they wanted.

    I see your point about older people driving them... heck my Grandfather has had nothing but TCs/ or GMs my whole life. I tried to get him into an Avalon last time and got laughed at. Although he does like my Avalon at 80 its hard to change his mind. V8 and RWD the only way for him!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    thought that the CV was only available thru the fleet dept.? but the GM and TC could still be had - even if the TC sets depreciation records every time one is driven off the lots.
    There is, however, something that can be said for these heaving, space and fuel inefficient dinosaurs - most any 'shade tree' mechanic can repair them easily from parts available in the salvage yards.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Does anyone know where manufactures of vehicles on this forum post demographics about people purchasing their cars. It will be interesting to know average age for large mainstream sedans buyer on this forum.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the previous version (04 and earlier) Avalon was a median age of 64 - a bit different then 'average' age but also something that has gone down a few years since the 05 came out.
    Would suggest to you that this particular vehicle type - large sedan and given the fact that they are generally the more expensive 'top of the line' models would lend itself quite naturally to an Avalon-type demographic. The Maxima and possibly the 300/Charger would likely be more appealing to those younger folks but still have an 'older' owner then most other vehicles.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    thought that the CV was only available thru the fleet dept

    Haven't been on a Ford lot in while, but last time I was there were a few CVs for purchase. Nicer ones w/leather and the toys. I did a search of our local Linc/Merc dealer and they had all of 1 TC in their new inventory. Funny, when I drive by it there appears to be many late model TCs probably all "program" cars. You would have to be a little off your rocker to spend 45K+ on a new one when you can get a one year old low mileage example under 30K.

    There is, however, something that can be said for these heaving, space and fuel inefficient dinosaurs

    I have a soft spot for full size Fords. My first car was a GM and I had a mint '89 TC that I sold a few years back. I do like them, however I would never have one as a daily driver. My Solara handled the duties when I had that car, and there are even better choices now!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    relative to original sticker price the best 'deal' out there might just be that 1 year old GM or TC. Heck, a Town Car can have a MSRP of $50k pretty easily and then be bought a year later for about half of that (or less)!
    I too drove a sequence of CVs (company cars) for many years and while they might have been somewhat unremarkable in most respects, they were reliable and they did provide what they were supposed to - comfortable transportation for me and whoever I was taking to lunch.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    comfortable transportation for me and whoever I was taking to lunch

    What I find funny is how much roomier our Avalons (Azera, Taurus, Lucerne, also) are. You would think with the overall size difference that they would have bigger back seats. I guess FWD layouts are good for something.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I guess FWD layouts are good for something.
    Guess they are - and for many folks FWD cars are safer for them to drive.
    I believe that these spiraling gas prices will put a hold on all these HP increases we've been seeing lately so that the TS problems that come with high HP and FWD will become less of an issue and that FE problems may also slow down this movement that seems to be catching on towards RWD. Furthermore I would think that these higher HP V8s will become a tough sell even if it is something as powerful and apparently as capable as the G8 GT. Time will tell, of course, but I'd rather be selling my Avalon right now than trying to get my money out of a 300C, for example.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    image

    Looks like there is hope in the Ford camp...

    Source: Inside Line
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    sure does minimize some of that Volvo boxiness, and thankfully gets rid of that gawd awful razor blade grill (now it looks more like the current Avy grill) - guessing there are minimal drivetrain changes, if any - but a better (and more aggressive looking) car in any case.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    but I'd rather be selling my Avalon right now than trying to get my money out of a 300C, for example.

    Take a nameplate that typically has low resale then add a gas hog V8 and it just gets worse. I can't imagine the poor people trying to trade in Tahoes and Expeditions, must be getting killed.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Looks like there is hope in the Ford camp...

    Not bad at all I must say!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    If they finally upgrade the concrete door panels and cheapo gauge cluster inside, they'll really have something. I have no clue why they didn't do that in the '07 rename/freshening.

    I'd like to buy American, but c'mon guys -- benchmark Avalon and Azera, not your own previous model or the Impala.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Aside from the gauge cluster I never really had a problem with the interior. Its pretty well made and comfortable. Not quite in the Avalon/Azera class but better than the Impala or Charger.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the 500/Taurus interior impressed me as well - thought the fit/finish was decidedly non-Ford-like. Space efficiency is phenomenal of course, I guess the 3.5 addresses the power problem (maybe not the refinement problem), but at the expense of a very unremarkably conservative exterior. Currently. just plain dull and ugly IMO. The 'new' one looks better or we could wait for the RWD Australian Ford 'Falcon' which appears to be the G8 revisited. That one we'll just have to waiot and see - Ford seemingly has lots of problems getting new (and competitive) products to market.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Ford seemingly has lots of problems getting new (and competitive) products to market.

    That is what happens when you have no development $$$ because you put all your eggs into trucks and SUVs before the days of $3.50 gas. IMO the last thing they need is a G8 clone (heck I don't think Pontiac needs it either). Improve on what you already have in the Taurus and try to create a car people want not something they think is a deal because they bought it 2K under invoice.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    there seems to be a movement afoot that is going to bring back the 'traditional' American RWD sedan- independently suspended (and unrelated to the GMs/TCs etc.) and probably with some sort of 'trick' DOD system so at least the EPA thinks it does all right on a gallon of gas. While this may eliminate some of those problems with these higher HP FWD sedans, it will create a few for those that have never seen or really driven a RWD car - those folks that learned on a circa 1980 car or later - meanign most of us. I agree though that if I can get 25 mpg (overall) on a car this size and still have something that will pull me to 60 mph in less than 7 seconds , why then do I even want anything more especially when that alternative is going to cost me more than a few mpgs. Most drivers of the cars in this category probably couldn't tell you where the drive wheels are, and certainly don't drive in a manner that they could care.
    As far as Ford is concerned, they are unfortunately largely controlled by bean counters and seem destined to take a position as a second (or third) tier car manufacturer - if they survive. Read somewhere that they now have such a large debt load that they will not be able to service that debt out of all these profits they don't make - one of the reasons for the 'junk' bond status.
    This (Ford's future) would have to have some influence on any decision I might make to spend $20k+ on anything Ford makes regardless of how good it may or may not be. Chrysler seems to be a bit closer to 'Armageddon' but GM seems to making an effort at righting the ship. OR they may just end up as a truck manufacturers, which might be just what they need to do - heaven knows that an awful lot of very high profit PUs are sold, despite those ridiculous discounts etc. that they are sold at right now.
    And although the Taurus is priced as a viable alternative to things like Impalas/Azeras/Chargers , you are absolutely right - many times the 'best deal' out there has little to do with discounts or even initial cost- something that applies to a lot more than just cars.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    This (Ford's future) would have to have some influence on any decision I might make to spend $20k+ on anything Ford makes regardless of how good it may or may not be. Chrysler seems to be a bit closer to 'Armageddon' but GM seems to making an effort at righting the ship.

    In my opinion, the MBA's (of which I am one, sorry to say) have taken over the Big 3 in the USA. Their inability to look at the long-term is the main thing that has hurt them in the past, as well as now. They appear to be so focused on the present quartily profit picture (as, I might add, many US companies do as well) that they lose sight of the big picture.

    That is one reason that you see them introduce cars at the strangest times. For example, the introduction of high performance gas eating vehicles just at the time gas prices are increasing.

    Chrysler is by far the best example, hiring Nardelli from Home Depot fame...What were they thinking??? Exactly what auto manufacturing experience does he bring to the table?

    Remember Henry Ford II??? "Small cars mean small profits!"...And GM seems to me to have a total disconnect between its design/marketing arm and its manufacturing division...a great example is no stand-alone NAV system in the Malibu, but competing against everyone else in that segment that has it as an offering. I'm sorry, but On-Star navigational aid isn't the same...

    I think you might be right...I don't see the US auto industry surviving in its current form. I don't know what it will develope into, maybe trucks, maybe consolidation/mergering.

    It will be interesting to watch TATA Motors and see how it handles Jaguar...maybe that will give us a clue.
  • cdmuilecdmuile Posts: 152
    I was really, really disappointed that Hyundai didn't come through and buy Jaguar. It would have been a perfect marriage. What Jaguar needs is not a $110,000 Portfolio model, but a $40,000 sports car that goes out to LeMans and other venues and kicks a**.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    My compliments, though it's too late. Yes, that would have been a truly outstanding idea.

    Thinking outside the lines, I see Mercedes is about to give up on Maybach. Wonder if they'd sell the name to Hyundai for a nickel?
  • snaglepussnaglepus Posts: 160
    :)

    " . . . that Hyundai didn't come through and buy Jaguar."

    That proves Hyundai does think properly at times! ;)

    Can you imagine what it would be like to try and get a Hyundai-Jag fixed
    at the dealership with all the problems they might have? :lemon:

    :D
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    As far as Ford is concerned, they are unfortunately largely controlled by bean counters

    Aren't they all? Its just a shame, they have no money to make better cars. I think Ford had the right idea with the Fusion and Taurus.. but obviously the public didn't because its rebate central with both of them.

    why then do I even want anything more especially when that alternative is going to cost me more than a few mpgs

    I couldn't agree more!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    good good post - I guess it can be said is thet the worst thing that happened to the "big 3" is the cheaper gas prices/truck-SUV craze of the 90s.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    go along with this as well - what does Hyundai need right now - how about a 'luxury' brand like Jaguar - even though that brand has lost some of its luster under Ford? I think the Genesis, for example, as a Jaguar might have a whole lot of a better chance of acceptance and success with that label. Producing a car that mght 'kick a**' as you suggest might be easier for a Co. like Hyundai to do, than it might be to get folks to look at it seriously.
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