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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison



  • 'there is so much more to a BMW 535/ 550, for example, that Hyundai could logically approach (sophistication wise) anytime soon. '

    This 'sophistication' that BMW possess that you speak of is present only as they have decided to sell automobiles within a specific segment with a profit margin. Do you think they could make a 5-series better. What's better. For some its better styling, for some it is better NVH, for some it is a number of different things. The fact is that BMW targets a segment, decides on their goals and profit and then builds it and offers it. Hyundai does the same thing. Both possess or have access to technology that they have garnered through their own R&D, outsourced to suppliers to build for them and integrate into their vehicles or pay for from other automakers, etc. For instance the Genesis will have the 6-speed ZF tranny. It's not their they buy it. Their Tau 4.6 is theirs developed through their Namyang R&D operation which is 8 centers globally and is the busiest in the world as well as world class.
    Kindly share with me what marginally extreme advanced automotive technology BMW possesses that Hyundai does not have access to or cannot implement into a vehicle, should they decide they are going to build a $55k sports sedan? You can't be so naive to believe that a $67 billion (consolidated revenues) automotive group who has built 30 million cars, has the most advanced plants in the world and has more R&D engineers per capita than any automaker, if they decided to go head-to-head with a Bimmer, that they wouldn't succeed if Chairman Chung said to do it. The Santa Fe, Veracruz and Azera are arguably as good as anything in their segment and are thousands less. It could be argued these vehicles aren't class leaders also and then the counterargument could be that Hyundai has decided to play that segment with a reduced price to gain market share. No one can argue with objective testing figures however. Hyundai's present and emerging technology will compete with or surpass any technology that the 'best' automakers have. You will note that when automtove testing is done on Hyundai's tend to outperform the benchmarks they are tested against e.g. Veracruz is quieter than the RX350, better skidpad, better fuel economy on regular (vs. premium) fuel, equivalent braking and acceleration and fit and finish relative to its $8k reduced sticker. So if they decided to invest an additional $8k, are you telling me that it would outperform the Lexus RX. I think it would surpass the Lexus and yet who would buy it because of the perception issue. There are a lot of variables involved in building and selling an automobile.
    The fact is that BMW is the arguably the best in their segment as is Hyundai is in their. But to say that Hyundai can't build a $55k world class sports sedan is failing to realize who this company is and is to ignore all the variables involved.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    maybe a little bit of nitpicking - but true, the TL is about as good as a FWD car can be - this was one of the cars I considered strongly instead of my Avalon and was surprised by the 'rough' ride (maybe I'm just getting too old) not to mention the T. Steer that came with the 270hp at the time. IMO, while the TL would like to be considered a 'sports' sedan, FWD limitations will always leave that car short if you are also considering things like the 5 series, the Lexus ISs/GSs, A6s, the MB Es etc.but, of course so is the TL's price.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Prosource1...everything you're saying is correct and dead on. However, the problem isn't what Hyundai can actually do, it's more about how the American consumer will accept it. At this point in time...they won't. The scoffed at the idea of a Hyundai costing $30K and everyone that hasn't driven one is trying to find ways to knock it any chance they get. Most of the ones that make the negative comments about the Hyundai vehicles haven't even been inside of one to really know what it's about or what they are capable of.

    Personally, I feel that Hyundai is capable of building a vehicle that can compete directly with Benz, BMW, Lexus, Infinity and the like. However, I can tell you this much...the American consumer is not ready to accept that of them. Unfortunately, until Hyundai changes the perception of the American consumer...they will just have to continue to prove it to them by showing them.

    The redesigned Sonata was a stepping stone, then they restyled the Santa Fe...both products showed they could bring something to market that was visually appealing. Then...the brought in the Azera, a fresh design from the ground up. By far, the best vehicle that Hyundai has made to date. Shortly after giving us the Azera, they decide to launch a full size SUV...the Veracruz, which is making waves in it's own right. Now...the Genesis is set to be released amid much hype.

    I mean...a Hyundai possessing RWD, 6-speed auto w/Shiftronic and all the bells and whistles found in the likes of Toyota (Avalon), Lexus (GS-series), Infinity (M-series), BMW (5-series), Benz (E-class), etc and offering it at a price that gives the working class citizens a chance to own a vehicle that is LIKE the aforementioned and not have to sell their soul. It's just insane and the American consumer just can't fathom it!!!

    There are a few currently that are beginning to accept the idea that the Azera can be compared to the Avalon. A vast many will fight it tooth and nail, simply because...well, you're comparing a Hyundai to a Toyota. I wonder if Honda folks are feeling the same way about Chevy comparing their newly re-designed Malibu to the Accord!!! LOL're absolutely right and there's a lot about Hyundai that Americans do not know simply because it's not Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

    Actually, to further your point...Hyundai can build a $55K world class sports sedan and sell it for the mid-upper $30K's, and that's the problem. In the American way of thinking, it must mean it's cheap so it can't be done. Yet, in the same breath...we want more for less when it comes to most everything else we buy, right? LOL We Americans are a funny bunch.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Couldn't agree with you more. Although Acura's Honda 3.2L V6 (3.5 in the TL-S) is a great engine but it does lack torque and smoothness when comparing to the Toyota 2GR and Nissan VQ (in a lesser degree).

    Too bad this is not the place to talk about the TL...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    So...just because it's a FWD vehicle, it can't be a sports sedan??? :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    to say that Hyundai can't build a $55k world class sports sedan
    OK, if you throw enough money at anything you can also do almost anything - point taken - but the facts are (and will be) that Hyundai won't build a 55k car, simply because they couldn't sell it, just like they seem to be having a hard time getting the consumer to bite on the $30K + sticker on an Azera - even though it can be logically argued that it is comparable to some Avalons (which Toyota has no trouble selling) with stickers several thousand higher. $40k hot rod Hyundais - a contradiction - at least with that "Korean" rep that Hyundai continues to 'enjoy'.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    if there was some way to dial out the understeer created by the front weight bias AND the torque steer created by having an appropriate amount of power - THEN we could have a FWD 'sports sedan' (which to me is a rather nebulous term in itself).
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    LOL The point is...Hyundai won't sell a car for $55K, but that doesn't mean the car isn't worth $55K. You see...what Hyundai will do is actually build a car that COULD sell for $55K and sell if for $40K. Heck, the Veracruz...fully loaded with all the bells and whistles you can get...comes pretty darn close to the $40K mark. I know...I priced one out when comparing it with the Saturn Outlook we bought.

    Hyundai WILL make cars that can easily value upwards of $40K, but they will sell it for under that. What I mean is...if you take the Genesis and bring it to market with no badging and nobody knows who makes it and ask them what they think the car is worth...I'm sure you would get a range of $45K on up. I hate to admit it, but it's the italic "H" that brings the perceived value of the car down, simply because of the past that Hyundai has endured. I guess the best analogy to use here is someone that has bad credit and wants to have good credit. It can be done, but it takes time, vision and discipline. Hyundai is working on having good credit and it's not gonna happen over night, but it will happen.

    Hyundai will just have to continue to do what Toyota and Honda did when they started out. Continue to get better until they have proven that they can and will produce solid vehicles that folks can rely on and on top of it all...afford.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Understeer doesn't make it any less of a sports car, it just has to be driven differently...that's all.

    You should watch Pinks! (Speed Channel). I watched an episode where a Honda Civic (hatchback) out ran a Mustang. Torque steer didn't seem to affect the results and you and I both know that it took a great deal of hp (and nitrous) to make it possible, but it happened.

    FWD as a sports car is not the desirable option, but to say a car can't be a sports sedan because it is FWD...that's crazy.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Understeer doesn't make it any less of a sports car,
    IMO, yes it does. A 'sports sedan' or 'sports car' also has as much to do with handling/braking as it does with HP.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Like I said, FWD would be the less desirable option for anyone wanting a sports sedan, but...a sports sedan can still exist with FWD. Just because it's not something YOU would desire...that doesn't me that it isn't.

    You just have to drive a FWD sports sedan differently than you would one with RWD.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    a sports sedan can still exist with FWD
    not going to sell that one to this camper! :D
    Thinking that any of the cars of this group (even the 300C/Charger) as sports anythings - now that's crazy - but if you are simply going to define that 'sports' term as meaning simply something that can go fast then we both have one of those- just don't take your Azera out to a road course type track - that (presumedly) modified Honda Civic somebody mentioned would blow its doors off! I'll leave my Avalon in my driveway as well, because there are a number of things that it doesn't do well, despite all that power and regardless of how I drive it. .
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    Do you believe that BMW has a profit of close to 30K on a 55K car?
    If they do, you should load up on their stock.
    If Hyundai is to make a profit on the Genesis, which is being reported to be in the 35K range at the high end, they must have a much better engineering and manufacturing division then BMW if you feel that both cars will be equal.
    Their procurement costs can't be that much better than the competition.
  • jlindhjlindh Posts: 282
    We probably can't agree on the definition of a "sports sedan", But an Azera obviously WILL get around a track in a hurry. Sounds good too.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    probably can't agree on the definition of a "sports sedan", But an Azera obviously WILL get around a track in a hurry.
    and so can almost all the cars in this group and they would not be 'sports' anythings as well. As I said earlier, HP, by itself, is not the only qualification. In the Azera's case, specifically, it is the heavy understeer, torque steer, and ludicrously soft suspension that dooms any pretensions you might have for it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You can't be so naive to believe that a $67 billion (consolidated revenues) automotive group who has built 30 million cars, has the most advanced plants in the world and has more R&D engineers per capita than any automaker, if they decided to go head-to-head with a Bimmer, that they wouldn't succeed if Chairman Chung said to do it.

    If it was that easy, every automobile manufacturer would be selling the equivalent of a 550i for $25K. So you believe there is no real "sophistication" to the 550i, other than it's price tag, interesting. And because the VeraCruz has better skidpad it's a better vehicle than the RX350 for $8K less or so? Yes, I would like to see Hyundai sell the equivalent $55K 550i for $40K. Not gonna happen.

    I guess anybody can build a better 350 than Lexus or a better 550i than BMW, all they need is to do it. Right? (No the Veracruz is not better in the absolute sense, it may better price adjusted however) You really need to take a nice long and hard spin in a 550 and some other car to see the difference and what the gap is. That is the standard Hyundai has to bridge. Lexus and Infiniti are already trying to nip at their heels.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I never said that the Genesis was equal to a BMW. I said that Hyundai can make a car that would have a value of $55K, but sell it for $40K.

    Like I said, if you brought the Genesis out with NO badging on it and sat folks in it and asked them to give their opinion of what the car should be worth...I guarantee you that you would hear numbers that would range from $40-50K. As soon as you slap the "H" on it...then all the sudden, you lose $15-20K on what folks thought it was worth. If you took that same car and slapped a BMW symbol on it, BMW would be able to sell it for $40-50K...simply because it's a BMW.

    The real question here is, what does it cost BMW to produce, say a single 550i (which spec-wise will compare to the Genesis V-8 model) and compare that to the cost it takes for Hyundai to produce one Genesis. You might find that the difference between production cost and selling price (percentage-wise) may be closer than you think. However, BMW has greater costs going out, especially when it comes to advertising. It would seem that Hyundai has saved a lot of money with the minimal advertising it has had out there.

    Considering the Genesis hasn't hit the showrooms yet, we can only speculate as to how good the build quality is. However...when it does, make sure you go check one out and then check out a 550i and tell me which one you would rather buy...the Genesis @ $37K or the 550i @ $60K

    I'm not saying the quality of the Genesis will be equal to the 550i, but...the quality that you will get for $37K will make it hard to turn your nose up at it. That is my whole point. By not getting the BMW, make a few concessions, but in the end...saving yourself $20K+, those concessions will quickly become an afterthought!!!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Like I said, if you brought the Genesis out with NO badging on it and sat folks in it and asked them to give their opinion of what the car should be worth...

    This should be done, and then the final test is to smash them into a brick wall.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    So...why is it that a Mercury Marauder can be a sports sedan, but a Grand Marquis can't? :confuse:
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    And what would smashing them into a brick wall prove??? :confuse:
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