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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    allmet -- theTouring happens to be significantly tighter than the other trims, to quote that summer of '05 sedan comparo in C&D -

    The Avalon has abandoned its "Japanese Buick" spot for a position in the Sports Dept.

    and you know what, this is not the case,
    as kdshapiro notes you would have to drive and/or own something like that Bimmer to truly undertstand what the difference is - and this despite the fact that my Avalon would show its tailights to the then current 530 - but only in a drag race!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I'm well aware of what the "touring" trim level means. Again, I say...it is not as tight as the suspension on the Maxima.

    Wow...as intelligent as you seem to be, you clearly miss the points that are made. If you compare the 530 to the current Avalon, then yes...the 530 will whoop it's tail when it comes to performance. However...if you give the Avalon a TRUE sport tuned suspension, I guarantee...it'll give that 530 a serious run for it's money.

    The "touring" trim level for the Avalon, while lending itself to a sporty feel on the road, is far from a true sport tuned suspension. The "touring" suspension lends itself to rider comfort while also allowing for slightly aggressive driving. Would I push the Avalon Touring as hard as a Maxima...NO, I would not.

    Please note, and understand...I have not said at any point in any of my postings that the Azera or Avalon in current set-ups could ever contend with a BMW or any other sport sedan when it comes to performance. I have simply stated that if you gave either of the two cars a TRUE sport tuned suspension...THEN you could begin the performance comparisons.
  • Motor Trend 600 Foot Slalom

    Volkswagen Passat - 64.1 mph
    Hyundai Azera 63.7 mph
    Toyota Avalon 61.9 mph
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    . However...if you give the Avalon a TRUE sport tuned suspension, I guarantee...it'll give that 530 a serious run for it's money.

    No you can't and no it won't - the only thing it will do is outaccelerate it (and not by much)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I assume these numbers are from that 06 comparo? Yep the VW was cited for its relative tightness at the expense of ride, the Azera its relative softness and better ride, and the close winner of that particular comparo the Avalon Touring for its better balance between the two. To each his/her own, but had that been an Avalon XLS instead of the Touring they did test, I suspect that the results may have been different - if only because the enthusiast mags do tend to put more value in feel/handling than they do on 'cruising' - and perhaps the VW 'wins'. And no, that Passat is NOT a sports sedan either!.
  • Both the Lancer EVO and WRX are distant cousins to World Rally Cars, and as such are required to accelerate on dirt, ice and snow with over 400HP - they are AWD because they need to be to transfer that kind of power to the ground, same with the Lambo on the street.
    IMO, AWD is not necessary in a sedan that weighs 2 tons ( unless you drive in the mountains where there's lots of snow ) and thus with that kind of weight can not have serious sporting aspirations.
    As far as safety, the only safety with AWD is that it's harder to get stuck. Since the AWD only works when your'e on the gas, pressing the accelerator is opposite to what almost all drivers would do if they lost traction.
    BTW, I found out that the Stability Control on my Azera works: the back end came out slightly to follow a rut in the snow and the brakes came on quite agressively. IMO, Stability Control is worth more than AWD as far as a safety.
  • Acura RL 65.5
    BMW 545i 64.6
    Infinit M35 64.4
    Volks Passat 64.1
    Audi A6 Quattro 63.9
    Hyundai Azera 63.8
    Jaguar S-Type 63.8
    Chrysler 300C 63.2
    Acura TL 62.8
    Nissan Maxima 62.3
    Toyota Avalon 61.9
    Buick Lucerne 58.5
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    pressing the accelerator is opposite to what almost all drivers would do if they lost traction.
    especially those untrained/inexperenced ones? Agree with your comments, and also that SC systems are likely to be far more 'valuable' to the average driver, albeit at a price, of sorts..
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    this an effort to quantify what a 'sports sedan' is? Not exactly the most valid way to do this - especially considering the varying negative influences of stability contol systems on test results like these.. The wonderful FWD biased RL, to me, would have a hard time passing muster as a sports anything - it is simply too big and 'soft' and only does what it does because of that SH-AWD thing, the 545/M35/A6 perhaps - the rest - nope. Opinion, of course!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    That's all good and dandy but I don't know how TL got 62.8 mph on that list...

    Here's the stats from some "true" sports sedans according to R&T in their 01/07 issue:

    700 foot slalom:

    Lexus IS350: 66.7 mph
    Acura TL-S: 66.0 mph
    Infiniti G35S: 65.5 mph

    I think that's a fit of a strech for any car in this class to compare. Also, just sports suspension alone wouldn't make Azera or Avalon a sports car, it's the steering, chasis, turning motion, gearing along with a good suspension that makes one.
  • If a Hyundai Azera fares so well against sedans which are tens-of-thousands more expensive, how well will the Genesis fare? I'm betting the farm the numbers are going to compete with any Bimmer, Audi, Merc or Infiniti.

    (The $27K Azera outperforms a Maxima, TL, Jag S, Pontiac GTO, Avalon, 300C and is as good as a $55K Audi A6 Quattro in a slalom. This test is all I need to know about since I wouldn't be racing my car and I just want to know it will handle adequately in an emergency maneuver. I really don't care how many G's it can pull.)

    And since I dont care about shallow badge displays, which always cost more to display, service and fuel, I'll take an Azera, put $5-$7K in my pocket and drive it for 6-7 years. After 7 years that $7k is worth alot of money.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The $27K Azera outperforms a Maxima, TL, Jag S, Pontiac GTO, Avalon, 300C and is as good as a $55K Audi A6 Quattro in a slalom.

    Are those tests done under same day, same location and same condition? If not then that comparison is as good as moot.

    Anyone who thinks Azera and Avalon can outperform a Maxima, TL and A6 Quattro must be smoking something good...
  • The Acura I quoted was the TL and not a Type-S. Even still, the Azera's acceleration, braking and slalom numbers vs. the competition is a testimony to Hyundai's engineering competency. It is also very apparent that the 10% of profit being put into R&D is showing up in real world numbers and sales as they are number 6, sales are up worldwide and growing rapidly globally.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    they are number 6, sales are up worldwide and growing rapidly globally.

    I thought we are discussing cars, not companies here...
  • 'Anyone who thinks Azera and Avalon can outperform a Maxima, TL and A6 Quattro must be smoking something good... '

    You may attach your own spin to the test figures Motor Trend, conducted but I am merely quoting the tests numbers. The Avalon didn't best any of them but the Azera did at 63.8. Read the numbers before you comment. Your opinion indicates that you are predisposed to believing that a Hyundai can't beat anyone in anything because the Azera outperformed what you believe to be more capable vehicles.I am the 'anyone' and I dont smoke anything. There is no need to insult me because I presented test numbers.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Then I am asking...

    Are those tests conducted under the same day, same location and same weather condition?

    Did you answer my question? If not, then how's that a "spin"?
  • This is a forum. I believe it is aptly termed a 'discussion' because it affords individuals the general liberty to present diverse ideas about mainstream large sedans which are built by manufacturers. Since Hyundai builds the Azera, which is a mainstream large sedan, I believe I was well within the boundaries to discuss issues related to the engineering or sales of the Azera. I am confident it is our role to present discussion and it is the forum host's role to determine if discussion has wandered outside the boundaries. Kindly reread the terms of the agreement you checked and yield to the forum host.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    .
    the Avalon didn't best any of them
    of course it didn't and probably because Toyota (as is their history) is more conservative with stability control systems. The fact of the matter is that you won't know how any of these cars can actually perform unless it has an 'off' switch' that really and truly turns the SC off. The Azera - to its credit- does have one. Look all thru those tests you reference and you will see a little asterisk now appearing next to these results - the asterisk meaning 'stability control inhibited'. Or even better read the road test on the Chrysler 300 Touring (v6) in that C&D comparison in the summer of 05, where they rant and rave about how good and balanced that car 'feels' and yet the best the car could do in the slalom was well down in the 50s - why because of the invasive way that Chrysler, in this instance had chosen to set its 'silly' stability control intervention levels. Heck even Ford and Consumer Reports understand that these systems do ultimately effect the ultimate handling limits on cars, CR with its own 'asterisk' and Ford by choosing to compare a non-SC equipped Fusion with an Accord that miracles of miracles was so equipped. And then they want to claim that the Fusion outhandles the Accord, or that people invited to have a day of fun at the track wouldn't prefer the Fusion to the Accord? Don't know that you can call this spin, because it is more precisely the truth - there is much more to it than just numbers!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The reason I said that is because we have been down this path in many occasions before (this and other forums). The host can't always be here to clean up the mess so sometimes it's up to us not to stray very far from the topic.

    I am going to stick to cars here...
  • Your argument, although seemingly legitimate and rational, appears to be your attempt to serve your predisposition that an Azera is not capable of outperforming another model you deem as superior. Yet I am sure you are not capable of presenting any test figures of your own to dispute a generally accepted automobile reviewer. Since you can't, you are invalidating the tests based on your own criterion which is subjective. If you want to get into whether or not the test was scientifically valid, feel free to split hairs.
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