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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I had never heard of Mazda trying for a premium brand. I do remember the flagship being the 929 (preceding the Millenia) and IMO was a much better looking car than the Millenia too. It was a shame it experienced all the problems it did.

    Funny you should say folks didn't want to pay that much for a Mazda, but there sure were a lot of Millenias on the road when they were selling them.

    I have nothing against the history you're stating, which is why I made the comment that Hyundai is better served waiting until they've been more consistent with their products in the reliability department. Once they have accomplished that and folks really start to recognize that fact...they'll be able to pull something off like a premium brand.

    With the likes of the Azera and the Veracruz...and the fact that the Genesis will have 3 different models starting at the high $20K's with the fully loaded V-8 model in the mid to upper $30K's...I think they have a good strategy. I think what you'll see is a whole bunch of mid-level trim Genesi (would that be the plural spelling LOL) on the road and a sprinkling of the V-8 models. Simply because like you've said before...if gas goes up towards that $5 mark...who's gonna want a V-8?
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    re. 4421: 'Genesis v-6 is every bit the equal of a 535/E350/M35 and FTM the V8 Genesis is the same for the 550 etc. - do you really think that the buyer for those high end cars are going to be caught dead at a Hyundai dealership'?

    No they won't. But Hyundai aspires to be their equal, and not that of US brand name RWD sedans.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    never heard of Mazda trying for a premium brand
    and
    Hyundai is better served waiting until they've been more consistent with their products in the reliability department. Once they have accomplished that ...
    you never heard of it because it never happened, and the Millenia which was a damn good and relatively expensive car (for a Mazda), was a slow seller and dies a slow death. I bring it up only because I see some parallels with what Hyundai is attempting - is the world ready for a $40k window sticker when that sticker also says Hyundai? I think not - and it just might be the greatest thing since sliced bread as you proponents contend. The Azera is a damn fine effort on Hyundai's part, but its sales have been unremarkable despite its relatively low initial pricing - the reason for this perhaps that the world ain't ready for a $30k sticker on a Korean car either?

    As for the second comment: consistency - both the Sonata and the Azera are not aging as well (CR ratings) as they should if Hyundai is ever going to be able to attain that 'quality' rep that Toyota (and Honda) have profited from for all these years. It is not necessarily the car's qualities that make it successful, it is what people think about the car, rightly or wrongly, and probably in never having actually looked at one or driven one.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I know why Azera sales are slow...there was no marketing done when it first hit the market. Nothing preceding it's release and nothing steady afterwards. I can literally count on one hand (have fingers left over) how many times I saw a commercial for the Azera, then...NOTHING. It wasn't until well into the '07 model year that you started seeing them pop up again with a little regularity.

    Hyundai really shot themselves in the foot with the lack of marketing, considering this was supposed to be the car that turned their image around.

    As much a fan as I am of Hyundai, I was skeptical of the Azera Limited costing $30K. When I went in and they offered it to me for $26K...I was sold.

    As far as consistency, I think the problem is that Hyundai is starting to spread themselves too thin. I mean...adding the Tucson to the mix seemed smart to address the small SUV segment, so they had everything from sub-compact cars to mid-sized SUV's and everything in between. Then...they decided they needed the full-size sedan, full-size SUV and now they want to introduce a full-sized "sport" sedan aimed at the European offerings.

    Personally...I think they should have waited and concentrated on the line-up they had to ensure consistent quality.

    The problem now is most folks that have something negative to say about a Hyundai vehicle...hasn't been in one or driven one either period or as of late. They are mostly going on their impressions of the past. If half of those folks actually went and test drove one...I think they may not be as critical.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I know why Azera sales are slow...there was no marketing done when it first hit the market.
    ever seen ad of any sort for an Avalon? Or any sort of rebate or other 'marketing' tool?
    NOT

    the well deserved rep the Av had at the time was one of a super reliable 'old folks car. So what happened? The Avalon went from selling 3000 copies a month to almost 10000 back at its intoduction in 2005 - and at a price closer to $35k a copy! A good illustration of the power (or lack of it) in a name, don't you think?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    As far as consistency, I think the problem is that Hyundai is starting to spread themselves too thin.
    if it makes you feel any better - so is Toyota.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The current Avalon has established history on it's side. Were here ads out when the Avalon first came out...there certainly were. How long has the Avalon been around? I do agree, however...you still have to let the world know about it in the beginning. As well as the Camry sells, you would think they don't need advertising on it, but guess what...they cram it down your throat.

    "introduction in 2005" Ummmmmmm...don't you mean redesign? The Avalon has been around for AGES, seemlingly. You do remember when the Avalon looked like a bloated Camry, right?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    mid 90s to answer your question and for its first 10 years it really was a gussied up Camry - with a bench seat - unlike the 05s+ which were the world's first FAST Toyotas in many many years- with no bench seats, of course. It is now the 07 Camry and the ES that borrow more heavily from the Avalon. have always thought that they might have sold more of them had they given it a different name! The 'old folks' rep is still out there.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    As for the second comment: consistency - both the Sonata and the Azera are not aging as well (CR ratings) as they should if Hyundai is ever going to be able to attain that 'quality' rep that Toyota (and Honda) have profited from for all these years. It is not necessarily the car's qualities that make it successful, it is what people think about the car, rightly or wrongly, and probably in never having actually looked at one or driven one.

    Are you looking at the same CR figures I am? According to CR's website the Azera is all above average to excellent(a few minor categories slipped from excellent to above average from 06 to 07, I'll concede that). The Sonata is listed as all excellent for all the 07 models which is actually up in one category from the 06 models. And both the Azera and the Sonata are recommended models. That seems to be a recipe for consistency to me. Please correct me if I am wrong. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I guess we are - my reference is the CR 08 'Best and Worst' auto issue. It has the 06 model as 'much better than average'and declining to just average for the 07 model. This is consistent to what happened with the Sonata as well, winner of all kinds of 'awards' at introduction (JDP and CR) and has also declined to merely average. Any car that attains at least an average reliability rating is CR 'recommended' BTW, some of us may want better than that.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    see post 4338 for more on what this particular issue had to say and yes I am talking about overall ratings not individual categories
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "It is now the 07 Camry and the ES that borrow more heavily from the Avalon"

    True, as the '05+ Avalon was the first vehicle with the 2GR and the new platform. However, I can't imagine that Toyota developed the Avalon having only the Avalon in mind. The Camry and Avalon (and ES, RX, Highlander, Sienna, RAV4, Solara did I miss any?) have always shared many components and I don't think that will ever change. This is also the reason that the Av will remain FWD, Toyota keeps the price down by sharing parts. If the Av was that different from the Camry it would start at over 35K going well into the 40s.

    BTW... the older Avalons were always available with bucket seats. My '03 had buckets and when I was shopping for it, I never saw one with a bench.

    "The 'old folks' rep is still out there"

    No offense to anyone... I think it is still out there because there is some truth to it. I have never seen anyone as young as me (29) driving an Avalon, and most drivers that I see in them here in south Jersey are 60+. Fine with me, many people are missing out on a great car, and one of the best stop light sleepers on the market.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No offense to anyone... I think it is still out there because there is some truth to it. I have never seen anyone as young as me (29) driving an Avalon, and most drivers that I see in them here in south Jersey are 60+. Fine with me, many people are missing out on a great car, and one of the best stop light sleepers on the market.

    As someone even younger than you (20 years old, and a Junior in college) I've been impressed by a couple of these large sedans as well. Sedans that would definitely NOT be marketed towards me (Taurus, for one). Some are just GREAT deals for what all you get.

    And, if it makes you feel any better (although you don't seem to feel bad!) I'm 6'4" and was fine in a midsizer Accord, but a friend of mine from school is 6'7" (University of Alabama at Birmingham football player) and drives an older Avalon as well (maybe a '97-'98). He's 24.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    You're right, I don't feel bad. I have always driven large sedans, and probably won't stop anytime soon. As for the good deals, the Taurus just amazes me at how much car you get for in some cases under 20K. If that is what I had to spend, it would be top of the list.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If I weren't pleased as punch with my 2006 Accord, I might as well. The only downside would be the hit in fuel economy. Sure, its faster than my Accord (6.8 seconds to 60MPH vs. 8.1 seconds in my car) but I highly doubt the Taurus will bring upper 30s MPG regularly on highway trips like my 4-cyl Accord does very consistently!
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Somehow the CR version you are reading is different than all others:

    http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/deadwayt/CR.jpg

    The Sonata I4 is clearly above average and exceeded many other performers in the pack.

    The Sonata V6 was average but per CR it was still predicted to be much better than other V6 models such as Camry, Altima, Mazda6, Aura, Passat, among others (all are in the black hole - less than average, by the way).

    Let's move on, this is not a forum on CR/JDP/etc
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    I honestly don't think the G8 will have different sized tires in the front compared to the rear.
    There would be no reason for the G8 to have wider tires on the front than the rear since as a rear drive car it will probably carry less than 55% of its weight on the front wheels - as opposed to the 60-65% that these FWD cars carry. In fact many higher powered RWD cars mount wider tires on the rear to combat power induced oversteer. Those wider tires usually include wider and/or differing offset wheels than the front, hence cannot be rotated.
    You have previously noted the " YouTube " posting of the Azera at Virginia Raceway. Did you also note that that Azera ( driven by a racetrack instructor ) had 245 tires in the front and 225s on the rear? Simply an attempt to " balance " the handling.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Wasn't azera already a test bed for entry into lux or they will follow Toyota and simly have different grille and bumper on their lux Genesys?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The Azera is Hyundai's foray into the luxury segment, as denoted by the entry-level luxury tagging the Azera has received.

    The Genesis...oh no my friend, that's Hyundai's foray into the luxury sport sedan segment...while it may still be a horse, it's a horse of another color...of course!

    What do you mean by, "...or will follow Toyota..."
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Exactly my point Captain, the Avalon enjoyed 10 years of history before the major upgrade. With that type of longevity, how much advertising do you really need? The Avalon almost HAD to be their first upgrade in the HP department to keep up with Honda and Nissan. At one point, it seemed as if Toyota had no interest in jumping in the HP war. I'm glad to see they did because it suddenly made their vehicles competitors again!!!

    Don't feel bad, the Azera has the "old folks" rap as well. Most of the posters here that have one are 45+ (I'm pretty sure), I'm only 37 myself. However, as of late...I've started seeing a few Azeras in my area with younger guys/gals driving them. The Avalon...there's a sprinkling that I've seen with a younger person at the wheel as well. I have seen one Avalon in my area where the guy put some 20" chrome wheels, tinted the windows and it looked VERY sharp. I didn't even know what it was from a distance. I'm not saying it takes 20" wheels, but I tell you...it really looked nice.
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