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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    And Infinity purchased a BMW to model after against. Nissan purchased a Porsche etc.

    Except it was the other way around...but that wasn't the point I made.

    Cars sold abroad are irrelevant

    Except auto companies don't operate in the US only, and it's not always about the US.

    How about let's start in the good ol' US of A?

    Alright, you have the big 3 x 2 (japanese and us) followed by Hyundai at #7, I guess that's still horrible to you?

    Exceptions are models like 3/5/7 series which I believe are all US spec with some slight tweaks when sold with a left handed steering wheel.

    There are tons of global vehicle models with conversions done rather easily.

    Finally, creating a buzz is different than being successful.

    Agreed. Between the two, buzz is all we can talk about right now as factual information. The car has only been on sale for some weeks; talking about whether the car is successful or not at this point is like predicting the stock market :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Except auto companies don't operate in the US only, and it's not always about the US

    I disagree, we are in the US auto market. What Hyundai does in the rest of the world is irrelevant if their cars don't sell in the USA.

    There are tons of global vehicle models with conversions done rather easily.

    But I would guess, you cannot bring most foreign built cars into the US without expensive modifications and recertification. I believe there are certain exceptions where automakers design for the common regulations.
  • Why get a G8 when you can pick up a Genesis for almost the same money?
    A G8 GT lists for about $10K less than a V8 Genesis, and beats it pretty handily in every performance category except fuel economy. According to C & D magazine, which tested both, the G8 handling feel and steering are also better. The G8 has more interior volume, a bigger trunk, better weight distribution, and is even quieter at idle and 70 MPH cruise.
    The G8 lacks the luxury doodads of the Genesis, but IMO, it comes down to priorities - what each buyer feels is more important to them. The esteem of the Pontiac nameplate is not real high, but it's still higher than Hyundai. It would be easier to explain to my neighbors why I paid $32K for the G8, than trying to convince them why a Hyundai is worth $42K.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    If I were Pontiac I would be worried. Why get a G8 when you can pick up a Genesis for almost the same money?

    The G8 is a different animal than the Genesis, sorta like the difference between a Charger R/T and a 300C. One is more athletic while the other is classy and refined. The G8 does not sell for the same price as the Genesis, it's actually less.

    Indeed, we are entitled to our own opinions and I'll leave it at that.

    Still never heard of the G35 beign the one car that would shut BMW down, maybe that was something you came up with in your own thoughts.

    In all reality, the Genesis is 90% of the car for 60% of the price...those are facts, not thoughts. However, you can't quantify the brand name which so many people feed into. Those that post that 90% of a top tier brand isn't good enough are the ones that really just don't want to give props where they are due.

    You are right though, only time will tell.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    It would be easier to explain to my neighbors why I paid $32K for the G8, than trying to convince them why a Hyundai is worth $42K.

    That's the problem, too many folks feel they need to EXPLAIN why they made a choice for themselves to other people. It would be totally different if your neighbors were paying the monthly note on the car for you. Bottom line, you made a decision for yourself (at least I hope that would be the case) because you weighed all the options and felt it was the best move for YOU. What's to explain??? :confuse:
  • Except auto companies don't operate in the US only, and it's not always about the US

    I disagree, we are in the US auto market. What Hyundai does in the rest of the world is irrelevant if their cars don't sell in the USA.


    Everyone here (in Edmunds forums) isn't necessarily in the US auto market.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhh...but what car companies do overall is what gives them their global ranking.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Still never heard of the G35 beign the one car that would shut BMW down, maybe that was something you came up with in your own thoughts.

    Or maybe you weren't part of those conversations.

    The G8 does not sell for the same price as the Genesis, it's actually less.

    It depends on how narrowly one defines their car. Looking for a sporty RWD car, is different than looking for a RWD with luxury features, with a specific engine etc.

    I can handily see a V6 Genesis against a G8.

    In all reality, the Genesis is 90% of the car for 60% of the price

    You could also say the G8 is 95% of the car for 50% of the price. It depends on what value you place on engineering, luxury and doo-dads.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Or maybe you weren't part of those conversations.

    Conversations with whom???

    It depends on how narrowly one defines their car. Looking for a sporty RWD car, is different than looking for a RWD with luxury features, with a specific engine etc.

    No...it depends on the price of the car. A fully loaded G8 GT sells for less than a Genesis 4.6 that's fully loaded...simple fact.

    You could also say the G8 is 95% of the car for 50% of the price. It depends on what value you place on engineering, luxury and doo-dads.

    No...if it doesn't have everything that the other car has, then it can't be 95% of the car. We're talking overall features that the Genesis has, that the G8 doesn't. So if the Genesis is 90% of a top tier brand of car, how can the G8 be 95% of one???

    Compare the cars for what they offer. If you want bare bones performance with a few nice features, the G8 is for you. If you want creature comforts, smooth ride and luxury amenities...the Genesis is what you'll choose, simple as that.
  • No...if it doesn't have everything that the other car has, then it can't be 95% of the car.

    I think I found the problem. One person is defining the car by, well, the car; something like chassis solidity, willingness to have fun AND be settled on the highway, etc. The other is defining it on paper (car H has X feature while car P doesn't).

    I've driven a basic Audi Cabriolet, and a Sebring Convertible. They were actually similarly equipped, but the Audi was much more "car." More solid, better handling AND ride (to me). It was much more "car" than the Sebring was, despite features that were similar.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    It's actually a combination of all things. I guess it really depends on how you look at it. I had a 2002 Sonata that I got in lieu of a 2002 Camry. Reason being, Toyota wanted almost $7k more to give me what I got in the Sonata. The Sonata had every option the Camry had and proved over the next 4 years to be just as reliable as a Camry (I previously had a 96 Camry) and in my opinion, same features, same reliability, lower price...the Sonata was much more car.

    The G8 is more car from the performance perspective and if that's your leaning...by all means. From a standpoint of features and amenities...the Genesis is more car because of what is offered for the money. It's not to say you can't have driving fun in the Genesis, you can just have more of it with the G8. However...if your the type that likes cruising, then your driving would be wasted on a G8.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Conversations with whom???

    With whomever was saying these things?

    No...it depends on the price of the car. A fully loaded G8 GT sells for less than a Genesis 4.6 that's fully loaded...simple fact

    I specifically said V6. True there is a horsepower differential, but there are people who shop solely on price. Just like there are people who shop on features, name, gas mileage etc.

    No...if it doesn't have everything that the other car has, then it can't be 95% of the car.

    Performance counts very heavily, in fact more than doo-dads. The car has to walk the talk. The difference between a G8 and a 550i is less about the time to 60 and more about the total package. The G8 is probably 90% of the car at 50% of the price of a 550i. The other 10% to perfection is costly.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    With whomever was saying these things?

    Must not have been too many, I talk cars with a lot of folks and that topic NEVER came up.

    I specifically said V6. True there is a horsepower differential, but there are people who shop solely on price. Just like there are people who shop on features, name, gas mileage etc.

    Even with the V-6...the G8 is still less than the Genesis.

    Performance counts very heavily, in fact more than doo-dads.

    Once again, it depends on whose doing the shopping. Personally, I look for a nice mix of performance and amenities. So in MY case, the Genesis would win out.
  • podpod Posts: 176
    I consider the 2008 Mercury Sable (or Ford Taurus) to be a pretty good car. The new Ford CEO has essentially apologized for the "homer simpson" appearance and lack of sportiness and promised that the 2010 version will be a much more attactive and performance oriented vehicle. A different chassis, a different enine, etc. Spy photos have appeared that show a major change. Fine. I wonder how the knowledge that the present Taurus/Sable is to be phased out by 2010 will affect the price of these 2009 models. I would expect it to come down but perhaps they will throttle down the production so that there is no surplus of 2009's. Any thoughts on whether the price of the 2008-2009 Taurus/Sable will drop as we approach 2010?
  • Confused? The new this summer Lincoln MKS is based on the Taurus platform (chassis) which is the Volvo S80 platform. The MKS has a tweaked Taurus V6. How can they be doing all that much revision to the Taurus and not the MKS?
    BTW, I have given up on Hyundai after the 3rd set of new shocks on my 07 Azera with only 11,000 miles are deterioriating. I also test drove three different Genesis' and concur with Automobile Magazine, Car and Driver and others who reported significant deficiencies in the Genesis suspension.
    Also drove an MKS, it rides a lot better than the Genesis, but does need more power if accelerating up steep hills or interstate entry ramps.
    The Genesis (and Azera) have tremendous potential, but Hyundai needs to spend the money to get the cars designed right from the ground up, insure quality and then determine the price of the car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    This forum has gotten QUIET! A few questions to bring back the conversation...

    Let's discuss changes available for 2009 on these vehicles. I know the Chrysler models got a bump in V8 power. What else? Has Hyundai changed the Azera at all since it came out?

    The Buick Lucerne CX and CXL now come standard with a more powerful & efficient 3.9L, replacing the 3.8L motor. Would that change your mind in car shopping?

    Does anybody here have the new Maxima? How about the G8?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The changes in the Azera are subtle. Switching from silver to chrome accents inside. Instead of a rich mahogany faux wood, it now looks more like a good grade of oak. The stereo got a bigger screen dislplay and along with the climate controls, it all has a blue backlight instead of the green backlight. The speaker grilles are now plastic to deal with the complaints of the cloth retaining scuff marks. The grille has been re-done and actually looks better than the orginal grille. Oh, and the suspension was tweaked and they are using some new components. Not sure if it will do any better as the problems seem to show up after a few thousand miles are put on them...so the jury is out on that supposed improvement.

    That's all I have on the Azera.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    The Buick Lucerne CX and CXL now come standard with a more powerful & efficient 3.9L, replacing the 3.8

    Nope... still not what should be in the "flagship" Buick. As has been said many times... there are better choices.

    As for the new Max.. I didn't drive one but did check it out and sat in it. The interior is very nice, however I am not sure that it fits into the large sedan category any longer. It certainly seems smaller inside than the previous generation.

    I think one of the reasons this thread is quiet is because in general the large car market is not doing all that well. Although gas has been dropping people still are going for more fuel efficient vehicles.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The thing is, the same people who always participated here (you included :) )are still driving those large cars, to the best of my knowledge!

    I agree about the 3.9L. They should put the 3.6L/6sp in it and be done with the thirsty Northstar.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I am still driving my Avalon you are correct. I think on the reasons we all stopped is the topic got a bit stale and the cars really haven't changed except the Maxima. Don't worry, Allmet and the Captain have been having some good conversation over on the Genesis board!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    What GM needs is direct injection and electronic valves in their engines. All of them. this would give them an enormous advantage over the competition.

    Imagine the entire top half of the engine gone - no timing chain, no camshafts, no valve assembly, no having to deal with oil as well or a myriad of other problems. Keeping the air/fuel and oil separate in the engine is huge by itself - no chance of problems there. And the head can be made out of essentially un-warpable materials or the engine could be made without a head entirely(no upper gaskets)

    Lighter, cheaper, more reliable, and far better fuel economy. Valves and compression getting poor? It'll adjust the clearances on the fly - and if it's really shot, replace the module and go on your way.

    Not holding my breath, though.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    What GM needs is direct injection and electronic valves in their engines. All of them. this would give them an enormous advantage over the competition

    Funny thing is...GM is using direct injection on the 3.6 in the Outlook/Acadia. Oh...my bad, they were talking about switching to it.

    Actually...what they do have currently is the SIDI...spark ignition direct injection.

    GM Press Release
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis (and Azera) have tremendous potential, but Hyundai needs to spend the money to get the cars designed right from the ground up, insure quality and then determine the price of the car.

    I must have missed the memo about how Hyundai didn't spend enough money to put the Genesis from sketch to production; I've also likely missed the memo about its quality and correct pricing - silly me...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Joe97...you didn't miss any memos, the only quality knock on the Genesis is the suspension. I think the Koreans really don't know how to tune the suspensions of their vehicles for the North American market. What they may like over there in Korea isn't what we look for hear. Oh yeah, and the unfinished trunk lining under the rear deck. :blush:

    To be honest...the suspension has been the only consistent issue with the Genesis, yet...folks that have bought them aren't even complaining so it makes me wonder if the folks that are merely test driving them are saying it to give them something to harp on...I don't really know. When I tested one, the ride was quite compliant, confident and poised over pot holes, man hole covers and other road imperfections. I didn't have a chance to get on the highway with it, but I would imagine cruising on the highway would be a very pleasant experience.

    As far as pricing goes...I really don't know what anyone could say. The car is worth more and because it's a Hyundai, folks want to pay even less for it than what's being asked. Granted, it can be purchased below sticker, but even at $42K...the 4.6 w/tech package is one heck of a steal!!!
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,018
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  • Will say it again. Re: the Genesis, read the October issues of Car & Driver and Automobile magazines.
    Several people on Edmunds and other blogs have mentioned concerns about the ride. The posts here re: the Azera speak for themselves.
    Re; pricing, spend a little more to get it correct and then charge accordingly instead of trying to dramatically undercut the competetion on price.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    No offense Carolinabob...Hyundai has always undercut the competition on price, that has ALWAYS been their niche. Fortuntately with nearly 60K miles on my '06 Azera, I haven't experienced the problems I have read in postings here on Carspace as well as Hyundai-Forums. What Hyundai really needs to do is bring in an American consultant to work with them on the suspention tuning. They take care of that main issue and the rest is a cake walk. As far as pricing goes...they really don't have to address pricing...their cars are priced quite fairly in my opinion. Folks just need to accept the fact that Hyundai has grown up and and a $40K Hyundai exists! ;)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    So let me be more direct here, obviously I didn't make myself clear earlier :)

    You said, "Hyundai needs to spend the money to get the cars designed right from the ground up"

    Hyundai spent over 530 million dollars to develop the Genesis from the ground up.

    Re; pricing, spend a little more to get it correct and then charge accordingly instead of trying to dramatically undercut the competetion on price.

    If the Genesis price range doesn't make sense, how much were you thinking?

    As for the ride of the Genesis, there are obviously room for improvement, no doubt; nonethless, it is a good one, a very good first attempt. The Genesis has a very balanced ride, think somewhere in between the GS and the 5er. By the way, I disagree with your position the MKS rides much better than the Genesis - to me, the MKS rode a little soft in comparison to the Genesis.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    I just drove a rental 2008 white Chevy Impala LT with about 4300 miles on it for two weeks in New England on vacation. Put about 700 miles on it. Having not driven this generation of Impala before, I was curious about what GM's latest version was. For the record, I drive a 2000 Ford Taurus SES with the DOHC 3.0 V-6, with 75K miles on it. I have not read any of the 6700+ posts here.

    My impressions: On the plus side it was quite quiet, had a smooth ride, shifted and braked well, and had a large nicely shaped trunk with linkage hinges so as to make most of the trunk space useable.

    On the minus side, handling was somewhat remote, and road noise at times seemed higher than my Taurus is, though both were acceptable in my mind.

    What I really did not like were the outside rear view mirrors which were small, oddly triangular shaped, and the white body color housing was very distracting. The center console dash lights reflected in the top of the windshield at night, and the other gage lights behind the steering wheel reflected in the drivers side door window AND in the rear view mirror!

    Also the cupholders were way too far back in the console, and the armrest on the console was also too far back and poorly cushioned.

    The rear seats on this model at least, didn't fold down.

    Front seat comfort was not as good as my Taurus. My rear ached after anything longer than a 1 hour drive.

    The visors were too small and did not block sun in the upper corners.

    I detested the fake burled wood on the dash. It looked cheap.

    Most of these negatives would not be deal breakers for me, except for the poor outside mirrors, the reflections of the dash lights in the glass, the cupholder placement, the center armrest problem and the less than ideal front seat comfort. These items would definitely make me shop elsewhere.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,206
    I had a similar car in Miami several weeks ago and used to own a 2000 Taurus until I got fed up with the constant repairs once it was out of warranty. I thought the Impala road nicer than the Taurus on the highway, but the Taurus was a better driver. You are right that the seat backs are the killer on the Impala. They are terrible after a few hours. Taurus seats in an Impala would make a nice highway car if reliability improved. What's with the current Taurus - all that back seat legroom, but cramped driver's leg room further aggravated by intruding wheel wells?
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