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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Toyota needs to fix their transmission problems on their current Avalon
    as an owner of an 05, I know exactly what you are talking about. Toyota has iundoubtedly taken a most aggressive approach to its transmission programming and likely one of the reasons why the Av's FE is superior. However, what you are perceiving as a transmission problem is not really a tranny problem at all, it is a programming problem, that undoubtedly is effecting the way the car responds to your 'commands', but is also something that is becoming a common problem with many many of these new fangled multi speed 'electronic' trannies including those on some of the cars in this group. Ford's 6 speed as it was originally in the 500 was noted and reviewed to be 'hesitant', as has Hyundai's, as has GM's, as has VW's etc etc.. It's kinda a condition of the breed that I would imagine will continue to be a problem as long as these mfgrs. chase the almighty mpg (as well as all the 'safety' features that can now be added with all the electronic/computer 'interference'). Not to excuse Toyota for its overly aggressive (IMO) programming or for that matter how they are handling it afterward, but the fact remains that the tranny (5 or 6 speed) itself has been rock solid and it is 'working as it was designed' as I'm sure your Toyota dealer has told you.
    In my case I have 'learned' to drive the car as 'it' wants me to drive it, and on that basis it works just fine, in all respects. It has been over 2 years and 60000 miles since I remember any tranny delay or hesitation even happening, although I'm sure I can 'induce' the beahvior if I wanted to.
    The whole concept of the car 'telling' us what it wants (and FTM making a decision (of sorts) on driver 'intent') does sound ridiculous, but I'm afraid is something that will get worse before it gets better, and is not at all uncommon. There are computer nerds somewhere that are definitely deciding how we should drive and what our individual capabilities are. Isn't technology wonderful?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...FE has never been Mazda's claim to fame, so it's not surprising that they are able to get a car with less HP scoot along with a car that weighs the same with more HP...Zoom Zoom baby!!! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    allmet - I betting you're not old enough to remember - but many many years ago it was quite common to take these Detroit muscle cars and do things to them specifically to improve a 0-60 times, a quarter mile time, a top speed etc. etc.. First and usually foremost on the list were rear end transplants where final drive ratios were changed from a usually 'stock' number of about 3:1 to ratios of 5:1 or even 'higher'. Improved the heck out of 0-60 times, killed FE and top speed, of course. Didn't necessarily change the engine HP of course (we had other ways to do that) but did change FE and acceleration. In the current landscape of 'family' sedans that can easily best 7 seconds 0-60, the Mazda 6 we're talking about here seemingly needed to 'gear up' a bit to simply be able to run with everybody else.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You're right, I was still in diapers around that time and my love for cars didn't really start until my teen years.

    I do agree with you. It seems that Mazda, to keep up with their Zoom Zoom image, they're doing just that instead of following along with Toyota's blue print using DI and finding a good balance between power and gearing to offer great power and FE at the same time.

    One thing I will say about the new 6, it sure looks slick! :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well there are still a few of us around that were in diapers BEFORE they became disposable. ;)
    As a testimony to how far we have come - many of the cars on this group - call them family sedans or whatever, will easily run with many of those big V8 honkers of 40+ years ago - and consume half the gas doing it!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    LOL Indeed...you are right about that!!!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the mid 70s thru the 80s were the 'Dark Ages' of the automobile IMO, sorry if you had to live thru that, particularily if you love cars....
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...I was born in 70 and my love of cars picked up around the mid-80's. My first love...Porsche 928!!!

    Okay, okay...before we get in trouble...back to the topic at hand! :blush:
  • What type of problem did you have with seats. I have a new Azera, and the seat will not keep its program. While driving, or when the car is left overnight, the seat changes position. Did you have any resolution? Thanks
  • 101649101649 Posts: 192
    Capt2

    Don't forget Holly dual pumpers, high rise intakes, Hooker headers, dual point distributors, 4:11 rear ends, solid lifters,4 bolt mains,etc....I bought a new Z 28 in 1969...$3995 with a 5 yr/50k warranty....Gas was 0.28/gallon then...ran Sunoco 260 in that beast....as you mentioned earlier...many V-6's today can out perform and out run those old muscle machines...
  • "In itself and as a measure of any car's ability to accelerate, the higher the HP
    the better the acceleration times, not necessarily the torque."


    Obviously you've not driven any late model diesel powered vehicles recently.

    Take the E-320 CDI as an example. Maximum torque for this 3.0L motor is 400 ft-lbs from 1600-2400 rpms. Horsepower is only 210 at 3800 rpm. What this means is that almost all the time, it is within that maximum torque band. In other words, at most speeds it is almost always in the maximum torque range no matter
    what the speed. There is no need to down shift to accelerate faster as you must do with the 3.5L gasoline motor to gain maximum power and acceleration.
    The gasser has 268 horsepower, but not until 6000 rpm. Torque is much less at only 258 ft-lbs
    but not until 2400-5000 rpm. 0 to 60 mph for the 3.5L gasser is 6.5 seconds.
    The diesel 3.0L is only one tenth of a second slower at 6.6 seconds.
    With the diesel, there is maximum torque before you begin to move off the starting line, and if
    you are not careful, there is much wheel spin. I don't think the gasser will spin the tires at all.
    Now what happens when you are cruising at highway speeds and you want more acceleration as in wanting to pass? With the diesel, you simply tickle it slightly, and because you are already in the maximum torque range, you accelerate faster than the 3.5L gasser will do unless you floor the gasser and drop at least two or three gears. With the diesel, there is no need to floor it or downshift it at all.
    In fact, doing so might mean you would accelerate slower.
    Not only is the 3.0L diesel motor slightly smaller than the gasser (3.0L vs 3.5L) but it has an extra 142 ft-lbs torque (a 55 percent increase) and that is what makes it more powerful and at the same time, it gets a minimum of at least 25 percent better fuel economy while doing so.

    So much for the discussion of torque and acceleration.
    If the diesel were the of the same displacement as the gasser, the
    gasser would then be slower 0-60 compared to the diesel.

    Similar figures can be found while comparing the VW gas/diesel line.
    Also in the Dodge, Ford, Chevy/GMC pickup trucks line.

    Just wait until other maufactures bring their diesel powered vehicles to market.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the CDI is a remakable achievement, it comes in a $50k car and also a notable exception - my god, a diesel that's 'driveable' (and reasonably quick). The only other diesel that even approachs the CDI is one BMW (540td) is putting in cars in Europe. But, not a valid point, if you want to talk about the relative power of diesels vs. gas engines then look at something a lot more common and accessible, not $50 or $60k cars.
    Maybe you'd like to explain why the VW TDIs have always (and continue) to be slugs relative to their gas engined bethren? Despite more of that precious torque, could it be that the diesel does not have the ability to turn into useable HP fast enough???
    But, we do agree on one thing, the diesel should make a comeback, as soon as those technologies that make things like the CDI so good (and unobtrusive) can become available in less costly vehicles - until then we'll just have to 'put up' with the VWs, I guess.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Obviously you've not driven any late model diesel powered vehicles recently.
    actually have, a MB ML320CDI SUV, and as I said it was quite remarkable and unobtrusive - in short, quite undiesel- like. The only thing that made it quite obviously a diesel - compression braking - when you let off the accelerator it's like you turned the car into a 100 mph headwind. Drivability has not generally been the diesels problem however because of all that low end torque as you say, acceleration, stink, and clatter - now those are things that should improve with these new generation 'clean' diesels as they become available. May continue to be a hard sell over here in the states though, too many folks remember those Oldsmobile 98s with that infamous 350 diesel.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Like the new 3.0 TDi diesel that's in the Audi Q7?

    Audi Q7 3.0 TDi Test Drive

    and then you have this one as well...

    Audi 5.9 V-12 TDi
  • rminorrminor Posts: 40
    "The only thing that made it quite obviously a diesel - compression braking - when you let off the accelerator it's like you turned the car into a 100 mph headwind"
    Are you saying a diesel has a lot of compression braking? Not without an exhaust brake. The air inlet on a diesel is wide open. No way to close it like a gas engine. So, very little compression braking.
  • "Explain why the VW TDIs have always (and continue) to be slugs relative to their gas engined bethren?"

    That depends on which gasoline motor you are comparing the diesel to.
    If you compare the TDI with the standard gasoline 2.5L five cylinder
    engine, that's not necessarily so.

    The just available and at your VW dealers now here in Estados Unidos is
    the Jetta Sedan and Sport Wagen with a 2.0L TDI (Turbo diesel injected.)
    With 236lb/ft torque at 1750 -2500 rpm, and 140 hp at 4000 rpm, it may be a
    trifle slower 0 - 60 compared to the standard 5 cylinder 2.5L gasoline
    engine with 177lb/ft torque at 4250 rpm and 170hp at 5700 rpm.
    Look what you need to do with that five banger gasser to get to the maximum
    hp/torque rpms. This is with their standard available gas engine.
    FE is but 20 city and 29 highway with an automatic.
    The TDI is always right there on that fat torque plateau where you spend most of
    your time, and again, there is no need to downshift to get good acceleration.
    FE is 29 city/40 highway, but members over on Fred's will give you a big discussion as to those
    FE figures being far to low when compared to what actual owners are receiving mileage wise.
    I read there about mileages in the low 30s in the city and mid to
    high 40s on the highway. Some even speak of 800 mile tanks.
    Yes, VW does have their turbocharged 2.0L gasoline 4 cylinder with 200 hp,
    but it will not achieve the FE of the TDI. It must have premimum fuel.
    Over yonder, VW has that same short block TDI producing much greater
    power, but alas, they won't bring that one over here to the N A continent.

    Drop by your eager VW dealer and test-drive one. I think you are in for a surprise.

    Regarding the infamous GM 350 diesels of 1978, I bought a new '79 Cutlass
    Cruiser Wagon (ordered it loaded) and it was something else indeed.
    Had it for two years and only 17K miles, and I did not experience the
    problems that many people had with theirs. It was a real slug.
    No turbo and no lock up T/C and only a three speed TH350 trans.
    That motor was nothing more than a halfbred. A converted gasoline engine.
    One can only imagine what a 5.7 liter modern diesel engine would be like today
    given the advances in diesel engine design. Simply look at the Duramax,
    especially the newly designed 4.4L yet to come out version.

    A not to swift diesel either was the 4.3L six cylinder GM diesel
    I had in my front wheel drive '82 Buick Century.
    Many problems with that one. Piston slap (GM replaced two pistons under warranty)
    a governor retainer ring failure in West Yellowstone. It had to be towed to
    Billings and was repaired at no charge under the emissions warranty.
    Tranny lost second speed when I kicked it down to pass in the four corners area of Navajo
    country and I drove it clear back to California with only first and third gears and lockup.
    Too much torque, as that motor had the most torque of any of the engines being put in
    front of that tranny at that time (recall the four clyinder iron duke and the 3.0L sixes?)
    Funny how GM always puts their vehicles in the hands of the public to 'prove up'
    their product. They wonder why they are in BIG TROUBLE now!

    I digress, Sorry.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    AllAvalons, I see your point and yet I don't.

    "Unfortunately telling people they should think differently just doesn't work, and yes, perception is reality in the market. Nameplates like BMW, and Mercedes earned those reputations...."

    Yeah, and now they've spent the last decade frantically un-earning them, and people have begun to notice -- which is why the dull, reliable and service-oriented Lexus brand has moved into the void so successfully. "Perception is reality"? Yes, If you're buying their stocks or handicapping their sales, yes. If you're buying their cars, no -- reality is reality. The reality of the Hyundai Genesis is big room, rear drive, full options, extreme quiet, and modern engines. There are only two parts of the physical car that fall notably short of its lux-brand competitors: the fake wood and the slanty-H logos. Which means, unless you're fanatical about timber, you're not objecting to the owner's experience driving the car -- you're objecting to the reaction of spectators. As for me, I hope they all hate it so I can drive in comfort and luxury for thousands off. Screw 'em.

    "As I said, a large V-8 is where everyone has been, but is not where everyone is going, and those folks looking for that big V-8 are the very folks that are comfortable with the Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc."

    Even accepting your premise of handicapping the popularity of the cars, this comment misses the point. When Lexus and Infiniti models like the GS and the M offer a choice between V6 and V8 power, very few buyers actually buy the 8. It's there as a halo choice, for image. You'll notice that the excellent Acura RL died like a dog, in large part because it didn't have that halo to mesmerize people who'd end up getting the V6 anyway. Hyundai fully expects, and so do I, that most Genesis buyers will choose their excellent V6. In short, in all regards EXCEPT image, the V8 simply isn't very important, and even Hyundai has always known it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    There are only two parts of the physical car that fall notably short of its lux-brand competitors: the fake wood and the slanty-H logos. Which means, unless you're fanatical about timber, you're not objecting to the owner's experience driving the car -- you're objecting to the reaction of spectators.

    Or perhaps you don't like the driving experience, which you completely left out of your "two-parts." Perhaps it should be "at least three-parts?" :)
    .
    .
    C&D had this to say about driving the vehicle:
    We mentioned the suggestion of athleticism, and that’s what it is: a visual suggestion quickly tempered by dynamic realities when the road acquires curves and kinks. As we noted in our August preview test, Hyundai didn’t skimp on the suspension, which employs multilink hardware fore and aft, with aluminum componentry. But it didn’t take long on some of our favorite back roads to convince us that the decisions made by the chassis engineers in the area of spring rates and damping could benefit from a little revision. Maybe more than a little.

    On smooth freeway stretches, the ride is creamy and quiet. But on those back roads, contoured and crinkled by Michigan winters, it was not difficult to use up all of the suspension travel, yielding hard bumps and episodes of head toss.


    They go on to say its a luxury cruiser, but not on the same page as vehicles such as the BMW 528.

    Automobile Magazine, in comparing the Genesis against German and Japanese Lux competition had this to say about the driving experience:

    On glass-smooth on-ramps, the big Hyundai takes a deliberate, slightly tail-out set, thanks in part to an enormous rear antiroll bar.

    But add a few bumps, and the Genesis takes a turn for the worse. Unlike any of the other sedans, the Hyundai falls completely to pieces on twisty, bumpy back roads. Push it hard, and pavement irregularities send the Genesis heaving and wallowing down the road with the traction control light flashing and the steering wheel shuddering. When you're hustling with a car full of passengers, its soft rear suspension crashes onto its bump stops over moderately rough roads.


    Sure, hard-core cornering probably isn't on a lot of shoppers' lists when looking at the $40k Hyundai, but I post this to say that there are definitely some places where the Genesis needs to improve besides wood trim and brand prestige.

    :)

    Best regards,

    TheGrad
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Yeah, and now they've spent the last decade frantically un-earning them

    Maybe Mercedes, but not BMW. And certainly not in every market segment.
  • "C&D had this to say about driving the vehicle:
    We mentioned the suggestion of athleticism, and that’s what it is: a visual suggestion
    quickly tempered by dynamic realities when the road acquires curves and kinks.
    As we noted in our August preview test, Hyundai didn’t skimp on the suspension,
    which employs multilink hardware fore and aft, with aluminum componentry.
    But it didn’t take long on some of our favorite back roads to convince us that the
    decisions made by the chassis engineers in the area of spring rates and damping
    could benefit from a little revision
    . Maybe more than a little. [Ah men!]

    On smooth freeway stretches, the ride is creamy and quiet. But on those back roads,
    contoured and crinkled by Michigan winters, it was not difficult to use up all of
    the suspension travel, yielding hard bumps and episodes of head toss."


    Just like the Azera. :cry:
    Hyundai's suspension engineers are not up to the task of properly designing a good suspension system.
    I know because we are on our third set of front shocks for our Azera in less than 14K miles.
    Hyundia's Mando supplied shocks simply do not last and are not up to the task, and from what some magagine writters are saying, it doesn't appear that the Sachs shocks in the Genesis are any
    better.
    What a shame. Excellent cars failing because of Hyundia's suspension engineers!

    In both cases, one wonders why Hyundai did not go to Bilstein or KYB
    in the beginning when shopping for shock absorber suppliers. :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    This vehicle is updated on Ford's website. Trim levels have been shuffled with a base SE sliding in, and SEL being equipped much like last year's SEL w/Safety and Security package.
  • Sorry to be behind the power curve here, but who or what is "Fred's" ? Thanks, van
  • :)

    No need to feel sorry Dave. What year was your VW Diesel?

    So a search for Fred's TDI or go to: www.tdiclub.com
    That will get you to a group of VW enthusiasts bar none.
    As a group, we know the VW diesel better than the dealers, I kid you not!

    I am always surprised how many VW diesel owners have never heard of this group.
    With over 64,497members World Wide of which over 18,000 are considered active,
    it has been around for over 10 years and is continually growing.

    Fred is a fellow who started that group many years ago when he didn't own a diesel
    and this group simply grew and grew. Whatever you need to know, the members
    there know the car.
  • Last year, I wrote to Lexus and told them why I did not purchase one of their cars. Within 2-3 weeks, they called me and we had a nice chat about what I would like to see on their cars. They also sent me brochures on the LS and GS models.
    I have also communicated with other manufacturers and been cordially treated.
    But, NOT Hyundai!
    08/26 sent a letter to CEO with what I would like to see on the Genesis. Most suggestions were things on the Azera, but not on the Genesis and moving some features from the 4.6 to another package on the 3.8.
    09/05 letter stamped received in President's office.
    10/02 letter stamped received in Consumer Affairs Dept.
    11/21 letter stamped received in Legal Dept.
    11/21 letter returned to me with a cover letter from assistant general counsel.

    Their letter states: "As a matter of course, all correspondence received by HMA containing suggestions for design changes, new products, marketing strategies, advertising slogans or the like, is forwarded to the Legal Department for reply. Please be advised that it is against the policy of HMA to accept unsolicited ideas from persons outside the Hyundai organization. In accordance with this policy, we are returning your correspondence with this letter. Please consider this letter as HMA's response to your August 26, 2008 correspondence."

    This is why Hyundai will not suceed as a luxury car manufacturer and will ultimately have problems becoming a major factor in the American market.
  • With most companies "litigation jumpy", I can understand why HMA responded as they did.
    A better way is to post your suggestions and concerns in a forum like this one. Hopefully they monitor these forums. If they don't then you last statement in the above post is most certainly true.
  • Thanks, I had never heard of it..(Fred's). I started with the VW Deisel with air conditioning, in '79.. I purchased it in St Louis, Mo and a couple of months later had to replace it with another, as I had the 1st one was totalled out by a tractor trailer accident. That one lasted me over 100K miles without any problems at all. Then I did a 100K servicing, and had problems from then til I got rid of it about 25,000 mi later. Over all I loved it, especially the mileage I had, for the entire life of the vehicle as I owned it, was in the upper 40's if I remember right. I did much better the 1st 100K mi, that servicing killed everything. At the time I owned it, I was moving from Ill, to FL, to AL, to AR, back to FL., where I finally sold it in 1985.
    Again thanks for the answer,
    van
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    And what does it have to do with mainstream large sedans comparo? You've already posted the exact same thing in a few other threads, are you now infecting every thread because Hyundai didn't respond to what you wanted to hear?
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    "As a matter of course, all correspondence received by HMA containing suggestions for design changes, new products, marketing strategies, advertising slogans or the like, is forwarded to the Legal Department for reply. Please be advised that it is against the policy of HMA to accept unsolicited ideas from persons outside the Hyundai organization. In accordance with this policy, we are returning your correspondence with this letter. Please consider this letter as HMA's response to your August 26, 2008 correspondence."

    Exactly what other automakers would have replied here as well. Your Lexus situation was about a purchase decision; it's different here, as it was concerning about future products. So while you didn't get what you wanted to hear, it was the right thing Hyundai did. Companies do this on a regular basis.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    image

    More on Jalopnik, at the link below.

    click here for the Taurus pics
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Overall very nice, and a huge improvement over the cheapo Nebraska-flat plains of the current Taurus.

    The only problem I see here is the chrome surfaces around the gauge pods -- they'd be a guaranteed source of annoying reflections on a sunny day.
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