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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Can you imagine a consumer looking to upgrade their Accord / Camry but otherwise pass on Avalon/Lexus/Acura.

    If someone is happy with the Accord/Camry and looking to upgrade I can guarantee that the last place they'll look is a Hyundai dealership (okay, maybe KIA).

    Mark my words.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Personally I think there will still be a place for the Azera, just as there is a place for the Camry XLE V6, which is very different from the Camry LE."

    Apples and oranges here. Its much more profitable for a manufacturer to build one vehicle different ways than to have two completely different vehicles in the same class.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "was that the Genesis would be more a 'sports sedan ' than a 'land yacht'"

    I'll believe it when I see it. I believe that it will be no tighter than an Avalon touring. Of course, the RWD and better weight distribution will help things.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    How do you go about comparing the Genesis to the Avalon or Max when it'll have about the same power (in 3.8 V-6 form), but with RWD be a better driving car than either the Av or Max. The Lucerne in V-8 form won't contend with the Genesis in any form, heck...it's a weak competitor for the Azera.

    Actually, the trim Genesis expected to have the most deliveries pumps out more horsepower than every other car discussed here recently. The V8 too, also the 3.3 @ 264hp is something very efficient.

    Hyundai will not have to sell a crazy amount of cars to be measured as a success. A modest 1K-2K/month is a good step tracking up. More importantly, the intangibles the Genesis (and the Genesis Coupe) bring to the table are impossible to quantify.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    more a 'sports sedan ' than a 'land yacht'"
    this according to that Hyundai rep. in that MT article but OTH if you look at the Azera or even the Sonata/Elantra/Amanti/Optima, the Koreans have seemingly discovered the virtues ;) of 'soft', outdoing even Toyota in that respect. That ain't easy. The Genesis - a sports sedan? Like you, I'll believe it when I see it.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    For the Azera and Avalon, I've actually found the ride quality, NVH, for example, pretty much neck by neck, with the Azera having a slight edge.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I would say it's more of a luxury sports sedan than a sports sedan. :)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai will not have to sell a crazy amount of cars to be measured as a success. A modest 1K-2K/month is a good step tracking up.
    a big 10-4 on the government subsidies if this is the case - a 'modest' 20000 cars/year is nothing relative to the development costs of an entirely new car - in this group I would guess 100000 cars/year would cover things and also provide the Genesis with some of that critical 'market presence and recognition' , that Hyundai needs in general and also something that the Azera has never had. Pontiac is hoping for 40000 G8s/year FWIU which is fine - but only because it is anything but a 'new' car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Not exactly true, and here's why. The Azera is direct competition for the Max (current model) and Avalon. I'm sorry, I don't care how you carve it up...it is. Those shopping the likes of the 300C, will more than likely put the Genesis on their "test drive" list.

    If someone can afford to pony up the $6K for the Genesis, they may opt for the Avalon instead. That way, they get the security that FWD will offer them, Toyota reliability and everything the Avalon has to offer for that extra $6K. If they are indeed price sensitive...then they will hop their happy tails in fully loaded Azera and call it a day.

    The Genesis, on the other hand...will be an offering for those that are into the RWD sedans. Considering the Genesis is using a different suspension than the Azera...I truly believe the Genesis will offer the type of ride as expected of a car of the Genesis' nature. In all honesty, if Hyundai pulls it off...I see the Genesis being the classy performer that gives you the best of the 300C and the best of the Charger R/T & G8. Basically...a refined performer with all the bells and whistles. Which, being that kind of offering...split the difference in cost between the G8 & fully loaded 300C.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    " I've actually found the ride quality, NVH, for example, pretty much neck by neck, with the Azera having a slight edge."

    I have to disagree here. The 3.8 engine in the Azera while smooth is not the 2GR especially in the upper RPM ranges. As for ride, the Azera rides softer and that may be what you are comparing it to, but that is all subjective.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    a big 10-4 on the government subsidies if this is the case

    No govt subsides. Home market. Hyundai sold at least 10,000 (probably like 12K or more) units last month, and it wasn't even a full month. Plus, the home market pricing is higher than the range here.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Pontiac is hoping for 40000 G8s/year "

    I am sure they can sell that many the question is: can they even produce that many for the US market?

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Hyundai already has one vehicle that approaces the $40K mark...the Veracruz. One thing I think that's helping it is the comparison that has been done between it and the RX350, and doing a good job of holding it's ground.

    The Genesis can benefit from the same (once it drops). If it holds it's ground well, against the cars it's competing against...the sticker won't be that much of a shock at all...considering everything you would be getting for the price.

    From the perspective of 'what you get for the money', my Azera has been more than worth every penny. I can only imagine that they learned their mistakes with the Azera and don't make the same ones with the Genesis.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the GTO was originally in high demand - Pontiac apparently limited to 'down under ' production capabilities as you suggest - and also a reason why apparently we don't get to see a RWD Impala, a car that 'sells' regularly 2-300000 copies a year but would need a new factory - that GM can't afford apparently.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I hate to use a cliche but you can literally hear a pin drop inside Azera's cabin when idle, at low speeds, or cruising; even at full-throttle, it is restrained. Hyundai has really done a good job in those departments such as NVH, ride quality.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Bob...I'm with you on this one. I was told that the Azera would run $30K when I first started looking at it. However, when I walked into the dealer and asked them to make me a deal...their very first offer sheet (no rebates or incentives) was $26,018...the sticker on the car showed $29,380. Is the car WORTH $30K? I would say yes, has anyone paid $30K for one...depending on the market you purchase one in...it's possible. However, overall...I think most are in the same situation as you and myself...ended up paying at least $3K below MSRP.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    GTO was limited in production numbers, but the revivial never caught on. There were already huge discounts in the first year (2004 IIRC) to get some respective numbers. It just went down hill from there in its three year run until 2006.

    Pity, a good vehicle.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I hate to use a cliche but you can literally hear a pin drop inside Azera's cabin when idle, at low speeds, or cruising; even at full-throttle, it is restrained. Hyundai has really done a good job in those departments such as NVH, ride quality.

    LOL The cabin is quite hushed during normal driving. At idle, I have to peek at the tach to make sure the car is even running. Heck, you don't even get any engine feedback through the steering wheel. However, under full throttle...the exhaust produces a nice, throaty growl. I'm not one for those loud raucus tuner exhausts, nor do I care for the loud, beligerent roar of free flowing exhausts on muscle cars. I DEFINITELY appreciate the sound of the Azera's exhaust under full throttle though. :shades:
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...over a year ago...the GLS model didn't exist. They orginally offered the SE and Limited, both with the 3.8L V-6. Then, for 2007...they added the 3.3L V-6 as the GLS trim level. Now...they dropped the SE model and now you can either get the GLS (3.3) or the Limited (3.8). The GLS starts out at $24,600K and the Limited starts out at $28,550K...MSRP.

    What would make you think the price would go down after subsequent model years? They may offer deeper rebaters or greater incentives than in the past, but the price usually doesn't drop unless the car is just doing pitifully in sales.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    One thing I think that's helping it is the comparison that has been done between it and the RX350, and doing a good job of holding it's ground.

    That's all good and dandy but now the question is:

    How well is the Veracruz selling compares to the RX350?

    ;)
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