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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I like the idea of the Genesis... no doubt in my mind it will be a good car. Everything else aside it may make other manufacturers think "what do I have to compete with this?" I am due for a new car in just about a year and I will give it a look. However, as you well know I will not take a 4 or 5 MPG penalty compared to my Av .

    "the Azera remains a good and competitive effort in this class- likely my personal 3rd choice in this group behind the Avalon and Maxima"

    Here is where we differ a little bit... I actually put the Azera over the Max. The main reasons are the interior (smaller and I hate all the tiny buttons) and the torque steer problems. However, in all honesty I would be happy in any of them. The Maxima would definately have to be a SL model, SE a little firm for my tastes.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    If the Azera were discontinued, there would still be a price gap of about $5000. Personally...I see the 3.3 being discontinued for the Genesis.

    Captain, I never accused you of anything, I flat out asked you a question which was based on your postings and you being so pro-Toyota, that's all.

    I'm glad to see you say that the Azera is what it is, a good competitive effort in it's class. ;)
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I know a variety of magazine tests have shown the Azera to be the marginally quieter of the two, but both are like tomb, compared to most cars. If you don't hear anything, how much difference does a decibel make -- not much in my opinion.

    With either car, its not unusual to try the starter again, when the car is already running.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Yes - but the Chrysler brand is premium compared to Dodge is it not. And I would imagine that Charger sales do poach 300 sales and vice versa - that being the problem of having two full size cars to sell.

    Why can't a car company offer two large sedans?
    Would suggest to you that Hyundai can obviously market its cars however it pleases - but if we accept the premise that the Hyundai buyer is 'blue collar' - your words and is price sensitive - than his obvious choice would logically be the Azera - not the Genesis. If he is looking for a full size sedan, he wants something that will take his family on vacation, is also probably concerned with not having to mortgage his house to pay his bill over at the neighborhood Shell station or FTM his car payments. As such, the Azera would be his better choice. From Hyundai's perspective it is likely that they make more dollars selling this guy the more expensive car. See the conflict yet?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I mean...they could do Kia/Hyundai like Dodge/Chrysler...make the Hyundai side the more upscale versions.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Non-luxury makers make luxury cars, just as much as luxury makers make non-luxury cars.

    Sorry, that is just not true in the industry (apparently you are hanging out with the wrong people...).

    Ask Mitsubishi and Mazda in the 90s and VW in the early 00s about how well did their "non-luxury makers make luxury cars" thingy go.

    We've been over this many times it's time to drop the discussion. Like the host said, this is a place to discuss "mainstream" large sedans so if the Genesis is an ELLS then it should not belong here. You are welcome to discuss about the Genesis in the ELLS and luxury lounge boards but let us know how that goes...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you being so pro-Toyota, that's all
    I think you'll get me to admit to being 'Pro-Japanese' fBUT or a number of reasons: 1) a demonstrated history of producing reliable cars with decent resale values
    2) generally superior FE and drivetrain refinement and lastly
    3) the fact that some of the factories that make these cars is in the USA -keeping Americans employed important to me.
    I personally have a 'pro-Nissan' history (my previous 5 purchases) as opposed to 'pro-Toyota' one but feel that the 2GR is easily the best engine in this class including even the VQ in my wife's Altima. Haven't owned a Hyundai YET, but that may be coming soon, probably about the same time that I start keeping cars more than the 3 or 4 years (and 100k) I usually drive them ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You truly have a point on the resale value, FE and drivetrain refinement. However...Hyundai is catching on.

    As far as factories in the US...Hyundai has those as well, just not sure how many Americans are employed as the major assembly is done by computer/robots.

    I have no argument that the 2GR is the best engine in class...the numbers speak for themselves. However, if Hyundai keeps up with the improvement curve...they could soon offer what Toyota offers.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    If the Azera were discontinued, there would still be a price gap of about $5000
    Yes there would - which is my basis for this whole thread - do you really think that the current autobuyer given a choice between an Avalon for $32k or a Genesis for $32k is going to select the Hyundai product? Just because it RWD or closer to a 'sports sedan'?. You or I might,as well as most of the other posters contributing in this forum - simply because most of us can appreciate cars for what they really are. However I think Hyundai is going to have a helluva time selling the Genesis as a Toyota (or Nissan) alternate simply because with the Genesis the price hook has now dissappeared.
    Actually I believe the real mistake to be calling the Genesis a "Hyundai" in the first place - if they had thought to do what Toyota did with Lexus or Nissan with Infiniti or (on a slighly less ambitious level) Honda with Acura - then Hyundai isn't necessarily competing with itself on its own car lots - and further can now get what the market will bear if the Genesis really does turn out to be a genuinely 'underpriced' vehicle and a raging success. If things stay the way they are apparently planned, Hyundai may have no choice but to get rid of the Azera IF they want to sell any quantity of Genesis' IMO.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    do you really think that the current autobuyer given a choice between an Avalon for $32k or a Genesis for $32k is going to select the Hyundai product?

    Considering everything the Genesis offers...YES!!! If the question were the current car buyer choosing between paying $32K for the Avalon OR an Azera...I could agree with you. However, the Genesis offers quite a bit more than the Azera.

    You keep thinking the price hook has disappeared, it hasn't. They are offering what you pay$45K+ for in the premium sedans and they are offering it for the low to high-mid $30K's...how has the price hook disappeared???

    I do agree that Hyundai should have considered using the Genesis to launch a premium brand, but I really don't think they'll have a problem selling the Genesis or the Azera.

    The Azera and Genesis are two different animals, why do they need to get rid of the Azera...it doesn't make sense. One is entry level luxury, the other is near luxury...there's a difference. The demeanor of the cars are going to be different in that one is FWD and the other RWD. With the proclomation of Hyundai using premium sedans as a benchmark...the Genesis will feel like more car than the Azera as well.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    One is entry level luxury, the other is near luxury...there's a difference.

    The reality is (based on how the market works) that both of them are near luxury. The differences are one is a RWD sedan with a sporty emphasis and another one is a FWD land yacht.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay...and if you look at it that way, they are STILL two different animals.

    However, based on they way they are putting it out there...the Genesis will offer more luxury than the Azera. Whereas the Azera gives you a taste of luxury with some of it's offerings, the Genesis will seem more so.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Okay...and if you look at it that way, they are STILL two different animals"

    Yes they are.... but hypothetically: say the Taurus or Impala was a Chrysler would it make sense to have that along side the 300? Its no different than the Azera/Genesis combo. Put the eggs in one basket and let it ride, otherwise you are just competing with yourself.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    And yet...Mopar offers the 300 as well as the Charger, right? FOMOCO offers the Taurus and Montego, right? What's sad is...they are mechancially identical machines. What's the difference?

    At least with the Azera/Genesis...they may share powerplants, but other than that...everything else about them is different.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    You see allmet33, your Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300 example is exactly the reason why some of us think the Genesis should be sold under a different brand with a separate dealer network.

    Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I hate to tell you this, but there ARE Dodge/Chryser dealers selling both on the same lot.

    However, with those being the same car with differing sheetmetal and different feels, the Azera/Genesis is nothing like that at all. Why can't a car company offer two large sedans? :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?

    Don't know about you, but most dealerships around here do just that.

    Jordan Frazier Chrysler Dodge Jeep - Bessemer, AL
    Greater Birmingham Chrysler Dodge Jeep - NE Birmingham, AL
    Benchmark Chrysler Jeep Dodge - East Birmingham, AL
    Jim Burke Chrysler Dodge Jeep Chevrolet - Downtown Birmingham, AL

    All of these are singular lots, not same name / different location dealers. This may not be all, just the first four I thought of.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Why can't a car company offer two large sedans?

    Of course it can but I just think it might be better with Genesis being sold under a different brand. Apparently Hyundai doesn't agree so let's just wait and see how well will the Genesis do.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Well... in my neck of the woods there aren't any places that sell the Taurus/Sable or the 300/Charger in the same building. All makes have corporate twins. I think we are talking about two different things.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Uh, the key word in this trick sentence is "sold."
    ;)
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