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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison



  • carolinabobcarolinabob Posts: 495
    Thank goodness Hyundai did not buy Jaguar. Jag is pretty and runs fast, but has very low reliability and very high repair costs. It would not help Hyundai become a really big player to saddle itself with an expensive, low volume, unreliable car.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    while it is difficult to defend any British car in terms or reliability, I believe that you can point to the degree of sophistication in Jaguars (just like BMWs and MBs) as the real culprit for that checkered reliability. If there is one thing that Ford did help Jaguar do it probably is improving that reliability. Hyundai (as well as any of the other Korean mfgrs.) does not have a presence in the luxury end of things. Now they are seemingly wanting to get in that market - what better way then to call that car a Jaguar mark it up another $10 grand, and further try to insulate it from consumer reliability concerns with that infamous warranty of theirs? Win-win?
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    my thought was that they'd mostly buy the brand and its image more than the cars. For instance, the Genesis in some guise would become a Jaguar, much as the unseen parts of the VW Phaeton are now the guts of a "Bentley." It's the upmarket image of the name Hyundai needs -- not, as you aptly point out, the engineering.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    is the glass half full or half empty? The newest Ford commercials that have thrown the guantlet down and said that Ford products are equal to Toyota products in quality. Of course, that's a boost for Ford, but one heck of a knock against Toyota.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    On one of the commercials they said Honda too....No doubt Ford's quality is much better lately. I really am surprised that I am not seeing more of the new Taurus/Sable on the road. For the $$ its hard to beat.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I would agree that FoMoCo's quality is better, but equal to Toyota & Honda...that would seem a stretch. Unless they are saying that Toyota/Honda's quality is slipping a bit. I'm not sure what part of the country you're in, but here in the DC Metro see plenty of Taurus cars on the road.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I live in Southern NJ right outside Philly. I really don't see that many. More so than a few months ago, but I guess I expected more. Think early/mid 90s, they were everywhere. Heck I even had one... (or should I say I shared ownership the service department at Echelon Ford :( )

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Beauty, in some cases, in the eye of the beholder and whoever is doing the research. If FoMoCo for example is using JDP (and its variety of changeable 'made to fit' award definitions) then sure you can get me to NOT believe anything. OTH although the Fusion in particular has been doing very well and certainly the equal of the current Camry in regards to reliability - the balance of the Ford line (including the 500/Taurus) is unremarkable. Hyundai has much the same situation with the Sonata doing relatively well while the rest of the line has its worts. The problem for the Toyotas of the world is more likely that the buyer of a Toyota/Honda (and even Nissan to a lesser degree) EXPECT that superior reliability comes with the nameplate (and indeed spend more for it) , and it becomes headlines when one doesn't (like when CR makes the news for removing the Camry from its 'automatically' recommended list)- as opposed to some other manufacturers in this group that it becomes headlines when one does!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I can understand if Ford as a whole was doing that much better, but to base it on the success of t he Fusion and the Edge...that seems crazy! I can further understand if the commercial were about one vehicle, like the Fusion and they said that it equalled the quality of the Camry, but they way they are making it seem...that Ford, as a whole, rivals a whole. While I can say that Ford has greatly improved their products, it would be a stretch for me to cast them in the same quality "pool" with Toyota.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    just like 'comparos' that might 'hint' that a Sonata is comparable to a BMW 5 series - Ford can also make whatever claims it might want based on whatever it wants even if it is ONLY considering the Fusion - it is things like this that advertising campaigns feed on.
    I, for one, will believe Ford's claims once it shows me the same sort of reliabilties etc. LINE wide and probably as confirmed by some organization that is not in it for the money...
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    probably as confirmed by some organization that is not in it for the money...

    Does one really exist??

    On another note a colleague had a Dodge Charger rental recently with the 2.7 V6.... it had so little power that he argued with me it was a 4cyl. It just makes me wonder why on Earth they even put that engine in that car. Must be for the fleets.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    There YOU go again. Hyundai never brought quality into play when they made the comparisons they made. They made factual statements that can be backed up and proven. However, to jump out and say that your company has jump from quality obscurity to quality superiority, equal to the likes of Toyota!!! Now THAT would be the same if Hyundai had said, the Sonata offers you the performance of a 5-Series for much less...even I would laugh at that. They just said it had more ponies under the hood, a factual statement (depending on which 5-Series you look at). As far as what you might imply from that...I guess it depends on if you look at the sky as being partly cloudy or partly sunny.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    if Hyundai had said, the Sonata offers you the performance of a 5-Series for much less...
    But isn't that indeed what they DID say - something about the HP/acceleration compared to a 528 if I recall correctly., not to mention other claims about interior space etc - something that would technically be true if they were comparing the BMW to a minivan! The reason I mention Hyundai's ads specifically is that they (like these Ford claims) strain any reasonable definition of creditability and really just need to be laughed at. They both could use a new advertising agency.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    They just said it had more ponies under the hood, a factual statement (depending on which 5-Series you look at).

    Yeah, that a fact but a useless one just like when I say that I am taller than Chris Paul...

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    No Captain...they only said the Sonata had more horsepower...that's it. Also...about interior space...again, substantiated facts. Why are you throwing a mini-van in the mix? The 5-Series is a mid-sized sedan, just as the Sonata is...therefore, comparing interior space between the two is appropriate. You've just got a hang up on the fact that Hyundai chose the BMW to compare it to!

    Hyundai used factual information in their comparisons, where as Ford is making a claim that is substantiated by what?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, that a fact but a useless one just like when I say that I am taller than Chris Paul...

    Depends on who is looking at the information. If you were a point guard in the NBA, then it would mean something. The Sonata and 528 are mid-size sedans, with a huge price gap between the two. Simply put...Hyundai simply said you can get a mid-sized sedan with more horsepower and more interior space than a 5-Series for MUCH less.

    So...since you don't play in the're right, the information is useless. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    where as Ford is making a claim that is substantiated by what?
    possibly only by improvements in a Mexican built sedan - who knows - only their advertising agency knows for sure.
    That Hyundai should even mention a BMW anything, in any context, is a joke all by itself, is a mistake on Hyundai's part, and yes things like this are definitely a pet peeve of mine - anything (or anybody) pretending to be something it plainly isn't.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Exactly...basing something on, well...NOTHING!!!

    Here are the facts: Sonata / 528

    Curb weight: 3458 / 3505
    Horsepower: 234 / 230
    Torque: 226 / 200
    Max horsepower: 6000 / 6500 rpm
    Max torque: 3500 / 2750 rpm the hp claim has been substantiated. Can it out accelerate a 528...good question. The 528 hits it's max torque quicker, but the Sonata reaches max hp quicker and has more torque, however...the Sonata is a tad bit lighter than the 528 too.

    Now...let's talk about interior space...

    Front head room: 40.1 / 37.7
    Front shoulder room: 57.4 / 57.3
    Front leg room: 43.7 / 41.5
    Rear head room: 38.2 / 37
    Rear shoulder room: 56.9 / 57.2
    Rear leg room: 37.4 / 36
    Luggage capacity: 16.3 / 14 cu. ft.

    Once again, substantiated fact that the Sonata has more interior space than the 528...hands down! me or tell me at what point Hyundai ever said they were trying to get one to believe that they were trying to sell something like a 528. Show me where it is said that Hyundai mentions a Soanta providing the performance of a 528. Show me where Hyundai states that the Sonata offers the driving dynamics of a 528 for much less. My friend, all that has been said is...more horsepower and more room than a 5-Series for much less. A 5-Series starts out around $44K (MSRP) and the Sonata starts out around $24K (MSRP). I guess a $20K difference DEFINITELY qualifies it as MUCH less as well.

    Hyundai isn't pretending to be anything but a company that provides consumers with value based options that actually exceed what one might think a value based product should be about. It's okay to be peeved, simply because you've been brainwashed into believing that things MUST be a certain way or follow a certain order. Like I said before, Hyundai is breaking the mold of what an auto manufacturer is supposed to be...and it's making a lot of folks nervous.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    see -Hyundai's silly ad campaigns do have their desired effect - there ARE actually folks out there that want to take it seriously.
    Hyundai seems to be doing nothing but pretending these days, whether it be a be a Veracruz, Sonata, Azera, or even the 'never to be seen' Genesis, I'm not sure that they are not pretending to be a whole lot more than what they think. Maybe what they really need to do is find out what they can about the Azera as related to a 7 series ;) or an LS etc. etc. As I said, a new advertising agency would certainly help IMO.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I can take facts seriously...especially when they are found to be true!

    Wow...on one hand you give props on the Azera, but turn around and say Hyundai is a pretender. Pray tell, just what are they pretending? Is there increased success pretend? Is the whole "bang for buck" premise pretend? Is their improved quality ratings pretend? Please, tell me what it is they are pretending to be. I've had two Hyudai vehicles in the last 6 years, I put 105K miles on one in 4 years and I have around 50K miles on my current one in 2 years...neither have given me any problems or cost me any money outside of regular maintenance. I guess I'm pretending too, huh? You're funny.

    Actually...the Azera has been rightfully compared to the likes of the Avalon and Maxima. However, the upcoming Genesis has been compared to the S-Class and 7-Series...remember? More room than either! ;) It's just eating you up and you know what...I LOVE IT!!! :D

    Oh yeah, we won't even mention the Veracruz comparo that was done against the Lexus RX...successfully I might add. Yeah...that's some serious pretending. :P
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