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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I am actually 1 year into a 3 year lease. I didn't get an exact quote, but when I told them the lease I was getting on the Avalon the dealer said he couldn't match it and the car was almost 4K less than the Avalon. He suggested I buy it. It was the same thing with the Lucerne, same MSRP significantly higher lease payment all things being equal. The residual value of the Avalon is better than either the Azera or Lucerne which will yield a better lease, unless the manufacturer is giving an insanely low money factor.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    surprises me that in your case anyway, that it is costing you LESS to drive the Avalon, a testimony to the effects of higher resale values as it relates to higher initial costs. Just think, you could have paid more to drive that GMarquis monthly and at the gas station! ;)
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    "Was not aware of the Azera 'quality' issues that you mention as this has yet to be reflected in any reliability ratings that I know of - "

    The poor suspension is showing up in many of the drive test reviews I have read on the internet.

    It is a nice highway car, but I don't recommend it for driving around town or anywhere there is rough or uneven pavement.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The poor suspension is showing up in many of the drive test reviews I have read on the internet.

    Please share.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Puhleeeze, there are no "poor suspension" on any but some of the early 06 Azera's, other than the occasional lemon which any model may have.

    It is not a sports sedan, but will handle virtually any task asked of it. It is great around town and handles bad roads better than most cars I have ever had, including audis, bimmers, and an avalon. At speed (at least 130+ for me) it rides/handles decently. It is not a "floater".

    If you are looking for a sports sedan the size of an Azera, about the ONLY car even close in price would be the Avalon Touring and it is considerably higher in price. I am tired of sports sedan lovers nitpicking the Azera since it isn't intended to fill that niche. Now with the coming Genesis, that may be a different story.
  • batistabatista Posts: 159
    The DC SOHC 250HP all aluminum engine debuted in 1999 but the original iron block 3.5L 24 valve is from 1994. So, obviously it won't match Toyota or MB in refinement and willingness to rev. The Toyota 3.5L is only 2 years old and the MB 3.5L is also a couple of years old.
    The GM 3.6L is the closest in terms of newness (2004) and technology compared to the Japanese/German engines.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that would be one of the few things that would stop me from buying the Azera, it does have a ride closer to a Buick or FTM the Avalon XLS/Ltd.. That is, not however, a 'poor suspension' as perhaps altazera would have you believe - instead it is the way it is designed - providing more of a soft 'luxury' ride. A 'sports sedan' the Azera is not, as many many other cars aren't, but maybe a good suggestion for Hyundai - offer an optional tightened up suspension for those of us that appreciate those kind of things...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    all true - but put that MB 3.5 in the 300 and it would amount to a substantial improvement. Besides the GM 3.6 which has been used for a while in the CTS, there is also the VW 3.6, and the relatively ancient Nissan VQs and Honda SOHC V6s all of which would represent an improvement.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    IMO, if you insist on buying a GM, the only way to do it is one or two years old. You will save a boat load of money. Leasing really can be nuts, cars with higher MSRPs actually costing less per month. I glanced at the M35/M45 leasing board and saw some nice #'s for 45K vehicles. Maybe, Hyundai should do a program on the Azera. I'm thinking $349 a month no money down (probably possible with a really low money factor). Maybe that would get people into the dealership to drive it. Once they drive it you never know.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    RE:1714
    Brian
    Other than the postings on these forums, I have read nothing of suspension problems in any articles that I have read regarding the Azera.
    I also had a suspension noise on my car, but it mysteriously disappeared after about 7000 to 10000 miles.
    I attributed the noise to out of round tires, that eventually wore to round. I find that in my car the psi must be kept to 30 to achieve the best ride. Even a 2 psi difference is noticeable.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    don't know what percentage of cars 'bought' are actually leased, but I do know that it is becoming increasingly popular and also can make some sense if you happen to be a typical low mileage driver that prefers to keep his/her options open. The problem that I would see in Hyundai (as any of these higher depreciation vehicles), with bought down lease programs is that that also has the effect of reducing resale values much in the same way as up front rebates do. Getting some folks to take a more seriuos look at it, however, good point.
  • batistabatista Posts: 159
    Your so called relatively ancient VQ and Honda SOHC V6 have been reworked at least 2 times and that is why they are more competitive.
    The DC 3.5L has stayed the same from 1999 to present day.
    If you compared the 1999 3.0L Honda to the 1999 DC 3.5L you would say the Honda is weak at 200HP/195lb/ft.
    I have driven a 00 Accord V6 and when flooring it my Charger 3.5L sounds as good or better than that engine.
    American car companies don't have the money to improve their product. That is why you still see the 3.8L in some of GM's cars. That is dated from the 50's.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Your so called relatively ancient VQ and Honda SOHC V6 have been reworked at least 2 times and that is why they are more competitive.
    The DC 3.5L has stayed the same from 1999 to present day

    PRECISELY THE PROBLEM - if you start with a solid foundation whether it be the Nissan VQ or the Honda V6, then you can modify it to smoothly and willingly to produce the extra power maybe even with improving FE. A good example of how not to do this would be the much derided Ford DT 3.0 - a reasonably competitive engine in its day, but lagging terribly in future iterations - and not just from a HP standpoint. GM, which lost tens of billions in 05, can develop that 3.6 that, apparently, is very good, Ford can come out with a 'claimed' new DT, and Chrysler is still using a ten year old engine?
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    "don't know what percentage of cars 'bought' are actually leased, but I do know that it is becoming increasingly popular and also can make some sense if you happen to be a typical low mileage driver that prefers to keep his/her options open..."

    It is interesting that in Canada the Azera is one of the few cars that is not available for leasing! I wonder if this is a hint to its future? The 2006 models are still being advertised in the 2007 brochure

    Canadian 2007 hyundai
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    Agree wholeheartedly. I also appreciate a tightened suspension, but the roads around here ( Michigan ) are so poor, that the Azera is absolutely perfect. The Jag X-type we had absolutely crashed into bumps and potholes.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I also appreciate a tightened suspension
    to me a question of individual taste, what you pick up in 'responsiveness' you trade off for a little more road noise and degraded ride. There really is no perfect balance. My Avalon Touring may be the only Avalon where you can actually 'feel the road', and even it is no sports sedan. There will always be a percentage of the population that I'll call 'the Buick crowd' that reasonably prefer as much isolation as possible. To each, his/her own and not a function necessarily of the Azera/Lucerne, in this case, having suspensions that are too soft, more a function of what the car is designed to be.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Poor suspension? :surprise:

    Where in the world did you ever hear this? The only problem that the suspension ever had was initially on the '06 models when there was the issue of noise coming from the front end when the car would enounter light bumps in the road at lower speeds. I haven't heard of this issue showing up on the '07 models.

    Outside of that, the only other thing that can be said of the suspension is that it's softer than that found on the Avalon. Which, for the type of car the Azera is...actually is a perfectly suited suspension. Personally, after driving my Azera for a year, I don't have any issues with the suspension at all.

    Poor suspension...yeah, right!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    It is interesting that in Canada the Azera is one of the few cars that is not available for leasing! I wonder if this is a hint to its future?
    maybe makes no sense? If this were true, it would logically indicate to me that Hyundai can't offer competitive lease rates probably due to the low residuals. It doesn't seem possible otherwise because in a good portion of the market these days that is how cars are 'sold', and Hyundai would be 'giving' that portion of their sales to other vehicles. If it really is possible to lease an Avalon for less money than an Azera (or a Buick) as tjc78's experience would indicate - why would anybody pay the extra money to drive either of those cars?
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    # 1716 " I am tired of sports sedan lovers nitpicking the Azera since it isn't intended to fill that niche."

    For starters, I have never been in a sport sedan! I am comparing the ride (and rattles) of my car to my experience driving the following:

    89 Ford F150 2x4 pickup,
    90 Mazda 323,
    97 Plymouth Breeze,
    99 Volvo v70XC
    02 Ford F150 4x4

    ... neither of which had a clunking, rattling suspension, or faulty tires.

    I still like the Azera but get frustrated trying to avoid every pothole, manhole cover, and other road imperfections.

    People comparing sedans have a right to this info and can make decisions for themselves!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You're right, everyone has a right to make comparisons.

    However, it would seem your suspension problem is extreme. If you feel a need to avoid potholes, man hole covers and other road imperfections...there's something wrong. I've had my Azera for over a year now and the only time I've felt a need to avoid potholes is to make sure I don't bend my 20" rims.

    I've NEVER had an issue with suspension noises when encountering road imperfections at any speed.

    Also, out of all the rides you're comparing the Azera too, the trucks are the only ones with a wheelbase that's close to the Azera's. The 323, V70 and the Breeze don't compare in any way to the psuedo-luxury ride of the Azera.

    However, based on what some in the forum (that have had front end suspension clunks) have said, try adjusting the air pressure in your tires and maybe even see if the tires are balanced correctly as well.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    to make sure I don't bend my 20" rims.
    you got to be kidding - you put 20" wheels on an Azera? Wow!
    what's standard - 17s and 235/55s?
    you would have to go all the way to something like 255/35s with 20s to keep you speedo etc. close to accurate, and should have cost yourself a little in the smooth ride dept. as well as braking performance, not to mention hideously expensive fast wearing tires. While you are claiming that the Azera is not a 'sports sedan' (which it isn't), you sure are trying to convert it into one?
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    It's not the tires. It is something loose. There are significant number of owners trying to solve the problem on this and another forum.. It looks like faulty or poorly installed struts and other front end components. I'm just waiting for my shop manual to arrive before tackling the front end. Shouldn't have to do that with a new car, but that's life.

    I'm sure I will eventually get it riding as good as the Volvo, at least. It is already an excellent ride on the highway, aside from the faulty Michelins.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Since my 07 Azera doesn't have any clunking, rattling suspension, or faulty tires, I agree it is tough for me to make a comparison with what you have. Sorry you got a lemon, but if yours is a late 06 or any 07, I would say you are in the extreme minority.

    There has been a lot written about tire pressure and how it apparently affects ride and MPG on Azeras. I suspect this started when Hyundai delivered cars with 40lbs of pressure to prevent flat spotting, and the dealers didn't drop the pressure prior to customer delivery.

    This did happen to me, since I actually bought my car within 4 hours of the dealer actually getting it off the truck. The very quick delivery prep was good but not perfect. I also still had the protective plastic cover on my heater display a month after I got it. (It wasn't until I actually was trying to clean it off that I even knew it was even there). The tire pressure was caught and corrected by the dealer the morning after I bought it, when I went back for some stuff out of my old car.

    I currently have my tires set at 36lbs. I am getting a slightly rougher ride than at 30lbs., but am getting mileage around 24mpg and I have had it over a 100 a few times (where higher pressure is recommended). I have not checked any extended mpg with my tires inflated to 30, but may give it a try this summer when the heat goes up.

    I too try to avoid potholes (but who doesn't, they aren't ideal for any car's suspension, unless you are driving an off road vehicle).

    I would encourage any buyer to do a test drive in the vehicle they want to buy. If they want a stiff sport suspension, the Azera is probably not their car (at least not currently). I have driven a Buick Lucerne and the Azera is stiffer than the Buick, but even the Buick doesn't float like the older models.

    I also know you can pick up a stiffer Azera suspension package and bushings via the aftermarket. Less than $400 total for both. If you want stiffer, you can get it.
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    "I also know you can pick up a stiffer Azera suspension package and bushings via the aftermarket. Less than $400 total for both. If you want stiffer, you can get it."

    I don't want stiffer... I just want to get rid of the rattle. Oh and it wasn't there when I test drove it...it showed up after 6,000 km.

    It is not a lemon (yet) just bad tires and loose suspension. it won't rattle when I'm done with the torque wrench!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    suspension packages are fine and can serve to stop the leaning and wallowing, but to really improve handling you are going to need some way to get a few hundred pounds off the front wheels to the rear. None of the cars in this group (with the exception of the 300/Charger V6) even approach the even weight distributions required and therefore will never be 'sports sedans' because of the 60%+ of weight over the front wheels and the understeer created by that condition. It didn't appear that the poster involved in this thread was really interested in sacrificing his 'soft' ride, in any case.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...you certainly can't change the spots on the horse, but you can change the saddle you ride in.

    Stiffer suspension would improve handling, regardless of the weight distribution. Another thing that helps too...better tires. Other than that, the Azera will never, ever be a sports sedan...it's supposed to be a luxury cruiser. At best, it can be sprightly, but not sporty (handling-wise that is).

    Personally, I believe that a stiffer suspension would probably benefit in better take-offs from the line as the car wouldn't dip as much. It would also help eliminate the body roll on curves, along with grippy tires...the car should track nicely. I say that because with my 20" wheel & tire package...my Azera tracks really well in curves (much better than stock).

    If a sport sedan is what you desire...the Charger or Maxima would foot the bill nicely!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    remember the pony car craze - stick a big hulking V8 in a 2500 lb. compact car - and then call it a 'sports car'. Except that they weren't. Despite the RWD they still were terribly nose heavy and redefined the term understeer. Ill handling and ill braking contrivances - it's a miracle we survived (and we have any oil reserves left). And even an Avalon or an Azera would outhandle them today and likely even out accelerate them. The TL may be the best example of a FWD car that tries to emulate a true sports sedan, having that tightened up suspension you are talking about, but it fails (it ain't no G35 )- again something about that weight distribution and not to mention the fact that the ride is compromised. The Maxima hasn't been anything approaching a 'sports sedan' for years, the 300 is better although the V6 models lack a bit of power when put into a 4000 lb. car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You're absolutely right.

    The Maxima is about he most affordable true sports sedan in the way of tuning and set up. It's not designed for luxury, it's not designed for touring...it's designed for sport.

    Of all the sedans we've really been talking about...the Maxima really is the one to choose for sport. Like I said, outside of the Charger (which I would take over the 300 for the sport aspect).

    When you start getting into the likes of Acura, Infinity and Lexus...well, they have the luxury sport sedans & coupes by default with rear wheel drive.

    While tightening the suspesion and putting better treads on it will help improve a couple areas, it is not a fix-all for a sedan that lacks "sport" qualities. It merely improves a point here or there. The point here isn't to make it a sports sedan, just to make it a bit more sporty than it was.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    You directed me to this forum and you are going to make me compare a Hyundai Genesis, to regular cars like the Charger, 300C, Five-Hundred, Avalon, all because it doesn't have a luxury badge ? :confuse:

    This is honestly not even a fair comparison and would be a waste of time as no other car being discussed comes close to the features, quality, power, performance of the Genesis. The Genesis, is a BMW 545i without the badge. ;) Come-on Pat, I need a little competition to evaluate the Genesis, against someone who can match up. :confuse:

    In this forum it takes the cake without a contender. Can I please move up to at least LPS's to get a challenge ????? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    It is not a luxury performance sedan, Rocky. It isn't even entry level luxury performance. We've been around this block before - email me if you want to continue, but let's not disrupt this discussion further.
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