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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'll eat your hat if any 300+ hp V8 from Hyundai and/or several mfgrs I can think of will do even half of that 30 mpg (I was talking about overall FE). This prized Genesis that you Hyundai folk are championing, figures to be be very similar in almost all respects to the 300C and the 'new' Impala including price and prospective buyers. One can only hope that Hyundai (and GM) can do a little better form a reliability and FE perspective than Chrysler has. Premium 'sports sedan' buyers (perhaps unfairly) won't give it a first look, they really want to have to spend $50k or so - and Hyundai is a long long way from being able to charge that kind of money for anything.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Go ahead and forward me your address, I'll be sure to send you one of my good hats so it won't taste too badly! :P

    Hyundai has been on the come up in the reliability department, now they just need to work on their customer service. I really don't think the Genesis is geared towards premium sport sedan buyers, rather...towards those that want a premium sport sedan and can't afford the likes of BMW, Infinity, Lexus or Benz.

    Also, considering the price point, if Hyundai is on the mark like the rest of their vehicles...bang for your buck advantage will tip heavily in their favor compared to the 300 C or Impala SS.

    However, the current trend that Hyundai has going now (customer service withstanding), more and more folks will start to actually start giving their vehicles a thought. The redesigned Elantra is a very sharp commuter/college student car, the Sonata is proving to be a worthy competitor to the Camry and Accord, the Azera is grabbing attention, and making folks that want the Avalon take a look.

    Basically, I look at Hyundai (right now) as the maker that's providing a very nice option for those that don't have the money to plunk down on something costing $10K-30K more. However, if Hyundai is going to be serious about the whole luxury thing, then they MUST get a rein on their customer service practices because folks will demand better!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    while I have no doubt that Hyundai is improving from a reliability standpoint (the Sonata started off very well and has since degraded slightly, the Azera OTH has been excellent although the jury is still out) - what is this stuff about potential head gasket leaks BTW/). But that is really not the problem if we are talking about Hyundai's acceptance into higher end markets. That problem is (and will continue to be awhile yet) that this kind of thing is NOT what the public perceives Hyundai to be - Hyundai is still thought as a manufacturer of 'cheap' cars. Back in the 60s Toyota had a similar reputation, it took maybe 15 or even 20 years for the car buyer to begin to understand that they were actually better than what else was available at the time. This may also true with Hyundai right now, we simply don't know yet, but how do you expect Hyundai to change a reputation that took them 10 or 15 years to establish with a few good cars that have only been around a year or two? IMPO they would be better off staying in the 'low end' market and simply doing things better than have instead of trying to compete in markets where they have very little chance of success.
    The 'hat' address BTW is:
    Captain2
    c/o President Hilary
    1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
    Washington DC 10001
    subject to change, of course, as I consider my move to Canada at that point! ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Being a 3 time Toyota person, its going to be very difficult for me to switch over to Hyundai. My local dealer has really treated me well over the years (they should my family, friends and Employer have the total cars over 10 in 7 years) Having said that, if Hyundai makes the Genesis I will give it a look in March of '09 when my Avy goes back. I must admit that I am not to sure that FE will be what I am expecting. I want FE similar to what my Av gets and more power. Sounds like a lot, but maybe Hyundai can pull it off. If not, I hope that the Avalon is redesigned by then!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Personally, I haven't heard anything about the potential head gasket leak. If it happens, it'll get taken care of. Will it be an inconvenience...sure. Will I fret over it...not at all. It will only cost me a little bit of my time. :shades:

    The only folks that perceive Hyundai to be cheap cars are those that have never driven them. They are people that are stuck on stigmas and what they've heard. I guarantee you that if you took a large number of folks and had them go test drive a Hyundai, their perception would change drastically IF...they were being honest.

    You say that Hyundai should stay at the 'low end' market...and to be quite honest, that's what they are doing. They are just bringing quality to that low end and those that prefer the likes of Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Infinity are nervous. What's really scaring folks right now is that Hyundai seems to be putting out a very good product with a great fit and finish, along with technology that others are selling for $6k and more.

    Everyone is quick to harp on Hyundai and their start, but folks NEVER talk about the start that Toyota and Honda had...they were NOT the reliable cars they are today. Hyundai stands out more because you have the other 2 to compare it with at this point. I think Hyundai is proving to be serious about sticking around for the long haul.

    I figured you wouldn't back your end of the bet up...you too are scared that Hyundai will make you eat your words. :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I've owned 3 Toyotas in my life as well. I've also had 3 Hyundai vehicles.

    I can never talk bad about Toyotas as far as the reliability goes. My first car was a '80 Tercel, then I had an '86 1/2 Supra, followed by a '96 Camry. All 3 cars were great!

    I've owned an '87 Excel (that had well over 250K miles when it was totaled) and the ony component that was changed was the transmission. After my Camry was totalled, I went looking for a car to replace it. I took a look at the '02 Camry and at the time, I couldn't afford the $23K they wanted. A buddy of mine told me to give the Sonata a look, so I did. Test drove it, worked the numbers and for everything I was getting in the Camry, the Sonata was only going to cost me $16,800. I owned it for 4 years, putting 105K miles on it and there were no problems. Sure, a couple of hiccups, but what car doesn't have them? When I say hiccups, I mean something that a dealer usually has fixed in about an hour. Only time the dealer kept the car more than a day was when I got the timing belt replaced, along with the spark plugs, alignment and a new bra that had to be ordered. Other than that...the car made me forget all about the Camry that I had grown to love.

    That being said...the Azera doesn't make me miss any of the cars I've had in the past...not a single one!

    The FE on the Genesis may be the only sticking point as it seems to be with the Azera for some. However, it's no worse than the FE on the Maxima to be honest. I think it is possible for them to get it around 30 mpg if they do things right. Only time will tell on this one.

    However, if you want more power and the same FE as your Avalon, why not step up and get you a GS350??? I mean...that's about as close as you're gonna get to keeping the FE you had and getting more power. I guarantee you this much, if they upgrade the Avalon to match the numbers the GS350 has...you're gonna be paying GS350 money anyway to get it.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Infinity are nervous.
    this is where we'll disagree - Honda/Toyota/Nissan (and of course 'Detroit') do need to be keeping a wary eye on those 'pesky' Koreans - Infiniti/Acura/Lexus not even in the same zip code. If Hyundai truly wants to compete with them - they need a name change and a substantial price increase, selling thru some serious 'butt kissing' new dealers. And yes, just like I said in 2342, there was a reason for the the term 'Japcrap' about 40 years ago something that had changed by the late 70s/early 80s. Rome wasn't built or reinvented in a day, and don't expect Hyundai to either.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I guarantee you if the Genesis is all it is being hyped to be...Infiniti, Lexus and Acura will take notice.

    It's already a publicized, known fact that Toyota is looking over their shoulder at Hyundai. There have even been discussions about Toyota bullying vendors into not selling to Hyundai.

    You are right about one thing, Hyundai will need to do something about their dealers. That will be the Achille's heel for Hyundai.

    Hyundai won't do a complete overhaul in a day (as you put it), but they are well on their way. They seem to have an understanding of what the consumer wants and they are giving it to them, a great price even. Take the price of the Azera for instance, it makes it pretty hard to worry about adaptive cruise control, Blutetooth, navigation and stuff like that. Hyundai has an advantage that Toyota and Honda didn't have...a blueprint to follow left by those two.

    I don't see a name change as being what Hyundai needs. Everyone will still see them as Hyundai. Eventually, I see them doing like Toyota, Honda and Nissan have done...create a luxury brand and bring true premium sedans to market under that badge. However, I think they are fine with the vehicles they have under their current badge...with the upcoming Genesis being the last one they should try to bring out.

    They've basically covered all segments except for pick-up and convertible. I mean...sub-compact economy, compact economy, mid-size, large sedan, mini-crossover suv, mid-size suv, full-size suv, sport coupe and mini van. And now they want to add full-size luxury sport sedan as well. They have every walk of life covered and offer a viable option for those that don't want to pay what Honda, Toyota and Nissan want for theirs. Simple economics in this day and age where everyone wants more for their money. That's exactly what Hyundai vehicles offer.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I guarantee you if the Genesis is all it is being hyped to be...Infiniti, Lexus and Acura will take notice.
    'hype' maybe the key word here, but you want to give me your address for my hat?
    people that spend the $50k+ on a Lexus GS, a M45, a 550, , or even an RL are spending that money for more than just good cars and therefore won't take notice. Manufacturers won't take notice until potential customers do as well.
    Kind of like Hyundai's recent run of ads comparing the Sonata to a 525 or a Santa Fe to a Land Rover, those kind of buyers couldn't care about some 'value' perception, they WANT to pay more and get a 'proper' nameplate. Hyundai should bide its time and solidify a quality reputation before attempting to bite off more than the market is ready to chew. Toyota had already done exactly that well before they even attempted Lexus in the later 80s, and even then were perceived (and priced) as a 'value' choice to a MB 'S' or BMW 7 series at the time.
    Why do you suppose, for example that Infiniti was a lot more of a problem for Nissan than Lexus was for Toyota - do you think just possibly it was because Nissan didn't start with the same 'bulletproof' reputation that Toyota had at the time? The blueprint for success is right in front of Hyundai and there is more to it than simply just making better cars and flooding the market with new models, and tongue-in-cheek ads.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Allmet why are you talking about a car , which doesn't exist yet. This forum is for cars already on the market. Who knows what will Nissan or Toyota make in 2 years. It might be a 350+ hp awd car. So lets go back to our topic of "Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison" that are currently out, not "future cars"
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "why not step up and get you a GS350???"

    The GS is not big enough. I like the size and interior room of the Avalon. Plus, I really don't think that despite the RWD layout the GS is worth all the extra money. My budget wouldn't allow for a 50K car, 35K is about where I need to be.

    As a side note, Hyundai is getting better but I really believe that the Genesis will be a tough sell for them. Let's face it, in the price bracket they are sliding it in, there are some fine cars. The Hyundai may offer more for the money, but there are going to be people that will stick to what is proven.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Actually...Mr. Smart-Alexstore...there is no rule that mentions anything about bringing up a car that is soon to be out. It is a car that would fit in the segment of this discussion. I can understand if it were merely a concept car with a slim-to-none chance of being produced, but...it's on it's way.

    Anyway...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Exactly my point...what you WANT, you're gonna have to pay that kind of money for ($50K). You want more power, to go along with the roominess and FE of your Avalon...sorry, Toyota will NEVER make it for under $35K. The next re-do for the Avalon I see it getting somewhere just north of 300 hp under the hood, the fuel economy will slip a lil bit, but not much. Wait a minute...it'll be the same layout that's in the GS350!!! Oh yeah, it's gonna cost you about $36K+ to get it too. Sorry, that's Toyota's trend.

    I do agree that the Genesis can be a tough sell for Hyundai. I think it will all be predicated on what happens with the Azera. Right now...it seems that Hyundai is starting to get behind it, but I'm wondering if it's too late. Personally, I feel that Hyundai should have done a full market blitz with the Azera until you either had folks knowing what it was or wanting to find out. Right now, I can pull up and someone can ask what it is and when I say Azera, they still have a quizzical look on their face. To me...that's bad marketing.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Hey...until it is actually seen with hard factual numbers...yes, that is considered hype. However, based on my source for the Azera before it came out (which of course he was on the money), I would believe him about the Genesis.

    By the way...you can forward your had to the same address you gave me. I would say put it in care of G.W. Bush, but he may not know what to do with it if he got it. ;)

    You are so right about those comparison commercials except for one thing...they are not targeting the BMW, Land Rover buyers. It's showing people that can't afford BMW's and Land Rovers that you don't need to buy one of them to get the features they have.

    Of course, I don't hear anyone complaining about the Ford Edge commercial talking about the Edge being faster than the BMW X5 0-60. All they are saying is you don't have to spend BMW kind of money to get great acceleration. Simple as that.

    You are right, the blueprint is in front of them. However, in order to get the consumers to buy their cars, they have to make them more appealing, and for the longest time...Hyundai cars were always quirky. Now, they look like something most anyone would want to actually drive. I'm pretty sure they are heeding that blueprint, which is why they aren't jumping out there to create a luxury badge to sell the Genesis under. No...they don't want to make the mistake Nissan made. They are biding their time and at the same time, showing that they can keep up. Only time will show if they've paid attention to the blueprint. I mean starting with 2001-2002...it's only been 5 years, if they can be consistent for another 5, that'll be a big stepping stone for them.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "sorry, Toyota will NEVER make it for under $35K"

    Huh? They totally redesigned the previous generation added 70 HP, better FE, and only raised the price about 2K over the course of the line. You mean to tell me for a modest increase in power the price will raise that much? Base model XL's can be had for 28K, and I would believe that most models go out the door between 33 and 35K. Anyway, the car is a rocket right now, even if they didn't add power I will most likely lease another one. It's just nice to think they could squeeze out a few ponies without hurting FE.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    When was the last time you saw an Avalon advertised on TV or anywhere - or even appear in a dealers newspaper ad? They don't do it because they don't need to and after 2 years in my Avalon I haven't found many folks that would identify it on the street either, even those driving pre 2005 Avalons. It is not a high volume vehicle for either mfgr. those titles go to the cars in the lower end of the lines. What Hyundai needs is more of those 'best 1st year reliability' awards like the Azera just got from CR, sooner or later - poof! - everybody will know what an Azera is. In your particular case though, allmet, you'll attract attention and logically some questions just because of those 20" chromes!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I don't hear anyone complaining about the Ford Edge commercial talking about the Edge being faster than the BMW X5 0-60.
    no, seemingly Ford is leading the pack in 'factual slant' - these Ford 'sponsored' comparos supposedly run by some well paid car publication, comparing cars (the Fusion) not equal by any stretch of the imagination in tests specifically designed to highlight the benefits of AWD ( and the lack of stability controls), hiding the deficiences under the hood and then, turning around and claiming any semblance of legitimacy for what they just paid for. That a bigger joke than the 525 vs. Sonata, but this is also something the Hyundai shouldn't have to resort to - the Sonata is not a bad ride in its own right. How's that for 'complaining'?
    The next thing I expect to see out of Dearborn's marketing dept would pit the 'new' Taurus vs. something like a 535 or 528, feeding a whole bunch of gullible mullets a steak dinner and a 'Sunday' sales pitch to a bunch of historically Ford loyal customers, that would no sooner appreciate what a BMW is all about than my long gone grandmother would have. As PT Barnum once said.....
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    I still believe that Hyundai should try loading up the Azera with all of their available toys to test a higher priced market.
    They should also vasty improve their dealership appearances to gain some more customer appeal.
    The dealerships in my local area, (Palm Beach County, FL.) look terrible compared to the competition.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    I have to disagree on a couple of your points in this post. First is the FE: cripes, I owned a 2001 Tahoe for 5 years and the overall mileage on that was in the 16MPG range - this in a vehicle which weighs about 5500 pounds, a 5.3 liter OHV V8, and the aerodynamics of a brick.
    The Genesis will weigh much less, have a more high tech motor with less cubic inches to feed, and much better aerodynamics. I would definitely expect better than 15MPG.

    Secondly, in regards to the Genesis competition, I agree that the 300C and "new" Impala are probable competitors (pricewise). However, if the interior design and materials of the Genesis are on a par with the Azera, that aspect will kick those competitors rear ends.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Heard a commercial last night about the Lucerne:
    0% financing and $1000 Rebate...

    So that made me curious about the 500:
    $2000 Rebate

    Looks like "Summer Clearance" is happening early this year. By July I wouldn't be surprised if the rebate on the 500 is over $3000.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Allmet , before you start personal attacks think twice. Both Azera and sonata look plain inside and out. My 05 silver Maxima attracts more attention even though my car is completely stock. I was driving behind yellow dodge Viper, with my music off and saw people staring at my car not viper. Do you ever get this with Azera? I have no need to replace my stock wheels or tint my windows to get compliments on how nice my car is. Maxima was already on the market when both sonata and azera came out and for some unknown reason Hyundai failed to copy internal layout and as a result both hyundai vehicles lacking in internal and external appearance. I agree that when I was shopping for a new car I had a chance to drive new avalon and it has some advantages in its dashboard look and layout but @ 27 yr old at that time, I looked older in that car. My wife on the other hand wanted avalon but when it came time to buy, I got new Maxima 8 G less than similarly equipped Avalon and it still now beats new Azera by 3G.
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    Hyundai needs the Genesis concept to continue to move upmarket and prove itself as a legitimate contender. Every wannabe needs a 'halo' car to get the attention of a large percentage of the population that will not consider that brand. Hyundai is definitely a brand that is increasingly legitimizing itself but is not seeing that legitimization transfered into sales. Enter the 'Halo' car that garners attention, enhances brand image and provides an instant legitimacy. Simply 'loading up an Azera' with all the gadgets this company possess already in their domestic market is not enough. Hyundai needs the Genesis.
    I think its important to understand that Hyundai is a multi-billion dollar conglomerate that can afford to take these risks. And as much as we wanna question Hyundai's Genesis offering, hasn't Hyundai proven itself as a company with very good judgement over the last 10 years. Sales have increased more than any other company (%-wise) and in most circles they are a growing concern and a huge success. The best predictor of future performance is (recent) past performance. I guess we'll have to wait and see but I am quite sure this is going to be a huge attention-getter.
    Oh and news out of Korea is that the Genesis will be released ahead of schedule in the home market. This could mean a sooner than expect launch here in North America. I think that would be positive as long as they have dotted the i's and crossed the t's.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    So that made me curious about the 500:
    $2000 Rebate

    down here in Texas, both the 500 and the CV are being advertised at $6000.00 off, on a nominal $25k MSRP this amounts to somewhere about $4k BELOW invoice - an attempt by Ford I'm sure to get em off the lots if and when the Taurus shows up and I guess that the CV just plain doesn't sell. In either case you 've got to feel sorry for those buyers that bought either of these cars earlier in their 'run' - they may have just lost a few thousand themselves (in resale values) and it obviously can't be good for a struggling Ford to see their products sold so cheaply.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Alexstore, there was no personal attack, what are you talking about.

    I hate to say it...I've NEVER seen a Maxima attract any attention in my area.

    Do I ever get attention in my Azera? There wasn't a day that goes by that pedestrians on sidewalks, in crosswalks, in stores and folks driving by don't gawk at my ride. And this was before I added the rims and tinted the windows. Trust me, Maximas are a dime a dozen here in the DC area, there is nothing special about them. The folks lookin at your Maxima following the Viper were probably lookin at you thinking, "I bet he wishes he was driving that slick Viper in front of him!" LOL

    I've got a neighbor that has and '05 Maxima 5 doors down from me and when I got my Azera, he drooled over it and said he wished he had held out because the Azera looked better than his Maxima. The only thing you got out the deal with 2 more HP and a tighter, sport tuned suspension. If I wanted a rough ride, I would have gotten a Max, but I wanted something that would ride nice and smooth.

    I don't know what you consider to be plain on the inside, but the inside of the Maxima isn't exactly inspiring either. As far as getting one for $3k less than an Azera, yeah right! You can't get a fully loaded Altima for less than a fully loaded Azera. We're not talkin price after incentives, down payment and rebates. Straight up MSRP for MSRP...the Maxima is more than the Azera. Nice try though.

    Even if you compare an '07 Max with an '07 Azera...both cars fully loaded, top of the line models...you aren't going to touch a Max for less than $30K. The Azera will come in around $4k-$5K less. I sure hope you weren't comparing a base model Max with a top of the line Azera! Then again, that could very well be exactly why you paid $3K less! ;)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Allmet why are you talking about a car , which doesn't exist yet

    Then we should just stop talking about all future cars, spy photos/video, developement, etc.

    The Hyundai BH is going into production this year for the domestic market. It's coming alright.

    Who knows what will Nissan or Toyota make in 2 years.

    I can tell you what Nissan or Toyota has in stores 2 years from now but the point is the BH is coming next year, not in two years, starting under $30K.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'll bite on the 'Halo' car idea - but if that's what Hyundai really wants (as opposed to a sales leader competing with those 300s/Impalas) then they need to price it accordingly - the world's first $40k+ Hyundai! if you truly want to establish the 'Halo effect' as a means to 'prove' the ability to make well built and engineered cars there is rarely anything better than a high price to 'justify' it. But, let's talk about it again when we actually start seeing some examples of real cars.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You are so right with the points you have made, but again...I bring up the poor customer service issue that Hyundai is having currently. As much as I want to see this new Genesis put Hyundai up another notch...I think the lack of attention to the customers that have purchased their vehicles will likely knock them down 2 notches instead. Personally, I get treated great at the dealership I go to, but I've read too many times in various forums about owners complaining about the crappy service they receive and this is a nationwide problem.

    If Hyundai Corp. is going to be serious about marketing a luxury vehicle, they need to work on changing the mindset of the dealers and get out of that econo-sales mentality. Dodge/Chrysler went through the same thing when they made that 5-Star service push. Since then...they've become so much better.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmm...that's easy, how long as the Avalon been around? Come on now...that's a gimme there.

    You are right though, Hyundai does need to continue with the 'Best In...' categories.

    Captain...to be honest, the car was getting attention long before the 20" chromes went on.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I've owned Suburbans and can also testify to 15-16 mpg overall on close to 6000 lb trucks (with some highway mileage thrown in there). At 250 hp (my first ones were 200 if I recall correctly) all 3 of my Suburbans were slow as molasses even relative to those more power challenged cars in this group. RWD V8 sedans this physical size should all tip the scales right at about 2 tons, and with 340 hp or so should run sub 6 0-60s - which is where all the FE goes, making all that HP - a case in point being the 300C reported to do, at best, 18-19 mpg overall and as low as 12 City.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Captain...I think we all know that we won't see a $40K+ Hyundai. I think they know there's a limit. Unless...they want to set a precedent for NOT creating a luxury brand and selling everything under the Hyundai badge. It would certainly set them apart from the Big 3.

    Only time can establish their ability to make well built and engineered cars, considering they just recently started the upward trend. The Sonata has been around for years and it's been a continual improvement. The Azera was a first time car for Hyundai from the ground up only a year ago. The BH (Genesis) will be following in another year. So somewhere between now and maybe 2010...we should know if they've been making the right moves.

    As far as real cars go...Hyundai has give us the Azera. There is nobody out there, that can be honest about cars, that can say that the Azera isn't a viable option to it's competition.
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