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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    given my distaste for car dealers - I might even go so far as to tell you that ALL their ads are come-ons! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Sometimes I wonder if Toyota might have been better off naming the Avalon something like a 'Crown'. There remains this misconception that the Avalon is still an optioned out Camry?
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    The redesign was such a change for the car that renaming it may have been a good thing. Although the Camry and Avalon share many things, IMO, they are very different vehicles.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Captain, you know I love the Azera, but what is this with beating up on the Avalon in this group. It's a great car and hugely different from a Camry. You can't go wrong with either the Avalon or the Azera. For those that don't want a Hyundai for whatever reason, the Avalon is the clear choice for a large sedan, unless you need a police car, with bench seats.

    Two years from now, we will be sparring about the Genesis (or whatever it will be called) and the Lexus or Infinity. The people who buy BMW's and MB's will never look at anything else, even if Audi makes more sense.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    jaymagic...you're right, no matter how good a product Hyundai may put out, there are some that just won't give it any credit.

    Right now, Hyundai is hyping the Genesis to be it's competitor against the E-Class and 5-Series. That's a tall order to fill. However, that goal is attainable...especially based on what they've shown with the Azera.

    People can say what they want about Hyundai vehicles, but until they've gotten in one and driven it...they won't truly understand. Anyone that stops me and asks me about my Azera, I tell them...don't go in there and test drive one unless you're ready to buy one. You will find it very hard to not want to get it when you see how well it's put together, how it feels sitting in it, how it drives and most of all...what you get for the money.

    One thing I find funny...folks talk about how the Avalon is sportier in handling than the Azera (which is true), but I have NEVER seen anyone drive an Avalon in a sporty way! If we were in Europe, both cars would be considered touring sedans and both are QUITE capable in every sense of the term.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    jay- haven't read anything yet 'beating up' on an Avalon, there is simply nothing to 'beat on'. Think the problems that some folks have with it are those folks that value their purchases by the 'discount' they got on it, or the ultimate price they paid - not understanding perhaps that there is some truth to the adage 'you get what you pay for'.

    Would have a hard time believing that even Hyundai thinks that it can successfully target Lexus LSs/GSs, Infinity Ms etc. with the Genesis. Can imagine that Hyundai would like to be considered the 'luxury' Korean brand leaving Kia for the masses - but really, Lexus/Infiniti? GM is supposedly coming out with a whole new line of RWD V8s for 09 - maybe more likely Hyundai's target?
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...for now, Hyundai has stated that it's goal is the European offerings. However, I know you've seen the new Lexus add offering up the new 438 HP Hybrid they have...WHOA!!!

    First 8 speeds and a car that can parallel park itself (given the right parameters) and now 438 HP packed into a hybrid model!!! Lexus (Toyota) is definitely showing what it means to push the envelope!!!

    If Hyundai falls a bit short of it's target for the Genesis, I think they'll still hit a bullseye because it is an offering that will give what it seems most of the Americans want...size, power, appeal and technology. If it has decent FE, then the fact that it will be offered at the mid $30K range will make it hard to ignore.

    At 300+ HP, the closest competetior for that, price-wise would be a Hemi powered Charger, 300 or Magnum (excluding the SRT-8). I mean...anything made by Lexus, Benz, BMW or Infinity will cost you a minimum of the mid $40K range just to get that kind of HP & size.

    I know Pontiac is dropping the G8 which in GT badging will possess a 362 HP V-8 and will be priced between the mid $30K's to maybe $40K. It too offers the power, size and appeal, but...will it have everything else it needs. I certainly hoped they learned from their failed GTO.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    remember when Toyota came out with the Lexus LS back in the early 90s? Toyota already had an established and great reputation for building great cars, they come out with a new name, underprice the BMWs/MBs at the time, and delivered, of course, exactly what the market expected. A huge success complete with new dealerships that would do everything but wipe your nose for you. Would suggest to you that if Hyundai wants to compete in that market, they should try to do the same thing. Not sure that Hyundai has either the technical expertise or finances to do what you are suggesting, and that they shouldn't concentrate on what they are showing is easily done, making those "American' manufacturers look silly!
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    I guess everyone forgets how the Japanese "copied everything," not only in the auto market, but everywhere else in years' past. Not only aesthetics, but "nuts and bolts" items, such as SU and Solex carbs (Mikuni), and everywhere else mechanically. Hyundai is certainly not the first to do this, nor will it be the last.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    besides which, the 05 Avalon (at 280hp at the time) was the same size and would outaccelerate the Lexus LS430 back then - for $20k+ less. Does that make it even equal to it - NOT!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you leave out something very important - sure, they 'copied everything', you leave out 'improved everything' and not only the Japanese but now also the Koreans, the current crop of sedans available to all of us, being prime examples. And while we're at it, why not 'let' the Chinese come in an do the same thing? There really should not be a reason in the world why we can't develop and build competitive cars in our own country - it is a business we used to 'own'.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I don't think Hyundai is going after the LS (yet). The GS is a different story. I can remember when Lexus and Infinity "went after" Bimmers and MB's. People said no way. Now the build quality on the Lexus and Infinity cars is much better than Bimmers or MB's (at least in the last few years). I would take an Avalon or an Azera over many of the way more expensive tiny 3 series German cars right now (not the M's naturally, lol).

    But, like those that will not go after a Korean car, I think there are still a number of people that will not look outside Germany for a sport/luxury sedan, just based on history and brand cache. Unfortunately, we don't have Autobahns in the US. so sustained 155+mph driving is not a very real possibility. But traveling in a VERY capable lux vehicle is an everyday yearning. I think the coming Hyundai will offer a very tempting package for well under $40K out the door. And, I am willing to wait and see what the US can offer with the various zeta platform vehicles. Two years is an eternity in technology.

    I am not pro Hyundai or pro Korean. I am for the best deal on the best car I can afford, regardless of country or brand. If it is a US make or MADE (including just put together) so much the better. The better our economy the happier I am. PS, if the car I picked happened to be a hybrid or save me a few bucks and help the environment, even better.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I don't know about improving everything...there's nothing technologically superior about the 3.8 V-6 used in the Azera.

    The U.S. can still crank out power and has been able to with engines like the Hemi. However, the foreign makers are better at producing engines that offer power along with good FE (especially Toyota/Lexus & Honda/Acura).
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I have to agree jaymagic, not the LS (that's got 400+ HP, not to mention the price tag), but definitely...the GS is attainable. Power-wise...it'll be up there with the 430, price-wise...it'll still beat the 330!!!

    Same goes for the Infinity M's...power-wise it's up there with them, but will sell for less than the G.

    Hyundai hit a huge mark with what they did in the Azera. The way they were able to make a value based sedan look, feel and act like it's worth way more than it really is. I really do believe that Hyundai can pull it off.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    BTW, listened to a Hyundai press conference and the "Genesis" will be released in Korea at least 6 months before late 08 US delivery. That should help with quality control on a new model.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Isn't that how they've done all their models? I know the XG was out there before it showed up here. I'm pretty sure the Azera was out there, before it was dropped on our shores. I can also say that the Azera was delivered to some at the California HQ and given to select personnel to drive and give feedback on for a few months before they showed up in the show rooms of America.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    I am not sure about the Azera, I think it was released in Korea about the same time as US. I know the Korean version had more technology in it (NAV, etc.). I seem to recall they had the early production "clunk" in Korea, too. At any rate, I think the six months lag time will be very helpful in bringing a car to market that has to be "right" the first time.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,717
    Releasing at home for a time lets them iron out the bugs. When it comes here it's viewed as new but never developes those inevitable first-year-model problems. Hence it improves the image of the company. That's what the Japanese makers had done with some models. It actually misleads us here into thinking they never have teething problems with new models! grin. :)

    Good technique, no doubt about it.

    The Genesis is beautiful. I just saw the MT spread on it with pictures and a friend had sent pictures yesterday. Really nice shaping without the slant-eye look on headlights and taillights.

    This message has been approved.

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Well...I know GM does it to an extent. I mean...my wife went to the GM plant this past winter and she commented on how they were testing an '09 model vehicle already.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1652
    Most Hyundai buyers are unwilling to pay for too much research and design. We want a good reliable ride for not too many bucks.
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