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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    Taxes, regulations, wages, benefits, lazy workers, executive salaries, lawsuits... Lots of reasons the US can't develop and build competetive cars.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    half the cylinders = half the hp/torque @ rated max rpm? The higher torque figure you quote (340 @ 2000)) is impressive but, I 'm guessing not available when the engine is operating on 4 cyls. Large displacement engines, particulary, pushrod V8s, will almost always have bunches of torque. 140 HP, however, is sorry in a 4000 lb+ car and perhaps the reason, that it needs all 8 cylinders (full of gas) to hold the speeds I mentioned (on 4 cylinders). The behavior then surprises me, it is torque that has a lot to do with any car being able to hold speeds, although in that car just a gentle nudge back into 8 cyl mode, get the engine to rev a little, buy some stock in Mobil and you are off like a rocket. Why not a V8/6/4, then, something Cadillac has a disastrous flirtation with back in the 90s.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    agreed, but Toyota, in particular is making more money than Bill Gates (well, maybe not) and they, as well as Honda/Nissan/Hyundai, all are dealing with about all those issues, except for possibly labor issues, and largely doing so in this country!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    same thing I experienced on a simple test drive, an all-on or all-off behavior - thinking this is because of the DOD.
    That said that all-on is something isn't it?
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    According to my dealer, Hyundai is offering the large rebate (aka. trading dollars) on the Azera because of the slow sales in 2006. My experience from shopping around, is that the Azera is a nuisance model for the dealers and they would much rather put effort into selling Sonatas.

    I also suspect the slowing of Azera sales might be due to the tire problems and the right front end "clunk" problem that they are failing to acknowledge and address. Many people looking at cars in this class are used to better service and customer relations. Hyundai does not seem to be interested in either.

    despite these problems I am still a happy Azera owner... but I am tempted to remove all Hyundai logos from the car!

    Brian
  • batistabatista Posts: 159
    Yes, the power of the Hemi is impressive.
    I am not sure if the DOD is causing the sluggishness when accelerating. If you have it in autostick DOD disengages.
    The electronic throttle response is probably causing this all-on or all-off behaviour.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    maybe there is a difficulty getting the consumer to 'understand' a Hyundai product with a $30k+ sticker regardless of what they actually can be bought for? Don't remove your Hyundai labels BTW, it really is a nice looking car in its own right. Part of this 'Korean' car perception problem that I mention frequently, one that it will take several years for Hyundai to overcome.
    Sonata sales, from what I understand have also slowed largely becuase fleet sales are down, but it would make no sense for the dealers push the buyer into a Sonata, the Azera should be a higher profit sale.
    Was not aware of the Azera 'quality' issues that you mention as this has yet to be reflected in any reliability ratings that I know of - but it is a new design and those things are more likely to happen. Even my 05 Avalon started with some 'un-Toyota-like' teething problems (steering column 'clunk' and an oil leak at the timing chain cover), which were corrected by the 2nd year. Of more concern (if I owned the Azera) , the continued discounting of a car that shouldn't need to be - over a normal 3 to 5 year period of ownership such things can negate the competitive price advantage the Azera obviously has.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I think you may be right. When I was looking at the Azera, I had a few people say to me: 30K for a Hyundai? Are you nuts? My response was that it was one hell of a car, and had Toyota not done what it did with the Avalon there would be one in my driveway. What will be interesting is the Genesis, I know that in 2 years when my lease is up, I will be looking at one.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well that's fine, but FYI the compression ratio for the Toyota is 10.8:1 and it runs fine on regular. It used to be that higher compression ratios would almost always dictate fuel grade, this is not necessarily true anymore with these VVTi systems in the DC (or Toyota) engines. The DC SOHC engine is a good effort, but is not close to the MB 3.5 in terms of refinement/willingness to rev. There is more to an engine than simply HP/torque ratings. And I don't believe that MBs crappy reliability stats has a whole lot to do with their engines, more likely electronic over sophistication and complication.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    now you got me curious, on a 2 year lease, which was cheaper/mo. the Avalon or the Azera? I know it sounds ridiculous, but I wonder if they were actually close???
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I am actually 1 year into a 3 year lease. I didn't get an exact quote, but when I told them the lease I was getting on the Avalon the dealer said he couldn't match it and the car was almost 4K less than the Avalon. He suggested I buy it. It was the same thing with the Lucerne, same MSRP significantly higher lease payment all things being equal. The residual value of the Avalon is better than either the Azera or Lucerne which will yield a better lease, unless the manufacturer is giving an insanely low money factor.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    surprises me that in your case anyway, that it is costing you LESS to drive the Avalon, a testimony to the effects of higher resale values as it relates to higher initial costs. Just think, you could have paid more to drive that GMarquis monthly and at the gas station! ;)
  • altazeraaltazera Posts: 51
    "Was not aware of the Azera 'quality' issues that you mention as this has yet to be reflected in any reliability ratings that I know of - "

    The poor suspension is showing up in many of the drive test reviews I have read on the internet.

    It is a nice highway car, but I don't recommend it for driving around town or anywhere there is rough or uneven pavement.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The poor suspension is showing up in many of the drive test reviews I have read on the internet.

    Please share.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Puhleeeze, there are no "poor suspension" on any but some of the early 06 Azera's, other than the occasional lemon which any model may have.

    It is not a sports sedan, but will handle virtually any task asked of it. It is great around town and handles bad roads better than most cars I have ever had, including audis, bimmers, and an avalon. At speed (at least 130+ for me) it rides/handles decently. It is not a "floater".

    If you are looking for a sports sedan the size of an Azera, about the ONLY car even close in price would be the Avalon Touring and it is considerably higher in price. I am tired of sports sedan lovers nitpicking the Azera since it isn't intended to fill that niche. Now with the coming Genesis, that may be a different story.
  • batistabatista Posts: 159
    The DC SOHC 250HP all aluminum engine debuted in 1999 but the original iron block 3.5L 24 valve is from 1994. So, obviously it won't match Toyota or MB in refinement and willingness to rev. The Toyota 3.5L is only 2 years old and the MB 3.5L is also a couple of years old.
    The GM 3.6L is the closest in terms of newness (2004) and technology compared to the Japanese/German engines.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that would be one of the few things that would stop me from buying the Azera, it does have a ride closer to a Buick or FTM the Avalon XLS/Ltd.. That is, not however, a 'poor suspension' as perhaps altazera would have you believe - instead it is the way it is designed - providing more of a soft 'luxury' ride. A 'sports sedan' the Azera is not, as many many other cars aren't, but maybe a good suggestion for Hyundai - offer an optional tightened up suspension for those of us that appreciate those kind of things...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    all true - but put that MB 3.5 in the 300 and it would amount to a substantial improvement. Besides the GM 3.6 which has been used for a while in the CTS, there is also the VW 3.6, and the relatively ancient Nissan VQs and Honda SOHC V6s all of which would represent an improvement.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    IMO, if you insist on buying a GM, the only way to do it is one or two years old. You will save a boat load of money. Leasing really can be nuts, cars with higher MSRPs actually costing less per month. I glanced at the M35/M45 leasing board and saw some nice #'s for 45K vehicles. Maybe, Hyundai should do a program on the Azera. I'm thinking $349 a month no money down (probably possible with a really low money factor). Maybe that would get people into the dealership to drive it. Once they drive it you never know.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    RE:1714
    Brian
    Other than the postings on these forums, I have read nothing of suspension problems in any articles that I have read regarding the Azera.
    I also had a suspension noise on my car, but it mysteriously disappeared after about 7000 to 10000 miles.
    I attributed the noise to out of round tires, that eventually wore to round. I find that in my car the psi must be kept to 30 to achieve the best ride. Even a 2 psi difference is noticeable.
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