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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Yep, bumper to bumper much more likely to be used - and to be fair Hyundai does go a bit further on that end as well. As far as allmet's statement goes - if I might alter it just a bit ;) - 'a long warranty doesn't necessarily even IMPLY reliability and if it proves anything, it 'proves' that the company (and/or the car buyer) thinks that it MUST offer it to compete effectively'.
    To me - long warranties, if anything, are a 'red flag' of sorts - probably because I haven't owned a car in the last 15 years that ever required any kind of warranty service within 100k, total mileage of those 2 Chevys, 1 Ford, 4 Nissans, and 1 Toyota over a million miles.Therefore really don't care (Knock on wood) about a lousy 100k warranty - that kind of thing should be expected these days given any semblance of proper upkeep - don't you think?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    If Hyundai (or GM/Chrysler) were to really do this, suggest that there would be a really positive impact on resale values and equally as obviously 'true cost to own'. That lack of tranferabililty is what limits the mfrg's exposure, given that most folks are trading off cars every 3 to 4 years - in effect, making the warranty 50 or 60k, not 100.
    Nobody ever accused the Koreans of being dummies!
  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    And nobody ever accused the Japanese of being dummies and they avoid 100,000 mile warranties just like our domestics.

    The Koreans know that they have had reliability issues in the past and that the reason they're offering these long warrantee to buy back business.

    I agree with the guy who's never had to do warrantee work on all of his cars foreign and domestic. I never have either and I've owned all GM and Honda.

    I'd like to see the Hyundai cheer leaders to report back at 100,000 or 150,000 miles to see what they think of them at that point.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "And nobody ever accused the Japanese of being dummies and they avoid 100,000 mile warranties just like our domestics"

    GM is offering 100K and Chrysler is offering unlimited mileage on certain models. Why? Because, no matter whether the warranty is worth anything or not its a good marketing ploy to help sell cars.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    Actually in GM's case they almost never has power train problems so very low risk warrantee for them. I think it's the only 100,000 mile warrantee they offer? Chrysler on the other hand ranks at the bottom of domestics for reliability, so they're going the Korean route buying customers.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Fully transferrable doesn't mean they stand behind it, it just means they are standing behind the orginal owner. Look at Dodge/Chrysler's new lifetime warranty...only good to the orginal owner!

    Actually...a longer warranty would seemingly make someone want to hold on to a car for a longer period of time, however...someone like me...I ran through 100k miles in 4 years, so...
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    You're right about most cars not really needing the warranty, however...it is nice to know that should something go wrong in that time/mileage constraint...it doesn't come out of your own pocket. I can tell you this...should any of those cars that don't offer the longer powertrain warranty have something that goes wrong outside of their shorter warranty periods...the cost to repair is much higher.

    I had a 96 Camry (4 cyl/ auto)and when the tranny went, AAMCO wanted $2300 to repair it...eventually, I found a shop to do it for $1800,but just imagine if it was one of the newer trannies!!!
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Yeah? Just let one of those japanese trannies go out on you after the warranty period and tell me if you're happy about paying out the nose to get it fixed. :P
  • colloquorcolloquor Posts: 482
    Re. GM's power train problems, or lack thereof . . . tell that to those who suffer piston slap in GM engines.

    I would certainly agree on GM's transmissions however, as Rolls-Royce formerly used Turbo-Hydramatics.
  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    Sorry, I meant GM's transmissions are relatively trouble free. I think they have decent engines too, but they've certainly had more issues with those.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Greetings, Martin! Now, you are obviously a man who knows a fine car when he sees one!

    I also own an Impala SS and consider it the best car bar none among the vehicles being compared on this thread. I have had exactly no - zero - problems with it during my just over one year of ownership save for the power steering assembly recall that was addressed under warranty and I must say I never did have any problems with mine.

    The car is the very best combination of power, styling, very competent handling, quality, quietness, value, excellent stereo, reasonable mileage, beautiful and serene interior along with a magnificent V-8 engine burble available on the market today. I find the leather seats to be of very high quality and I regard the Bose audio system with XM radio to be one of the best stock systems available in a car presently on the market. I also very much appreciate the fact that you can adjust the units on the speedometer along with external temperature, tire pressure, etc. to either Imperial or metric at the touch of a button; now who else offers that feature in their cars? The transmission is oh so smooth and shifts seamlessly. Who needs five, six or seven gears when four do such a superb job?! And the power of that small block V-8 is absolutely exhilarating. It puts a smile on my face every time I drive it and that is what a car should do!
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    " also own an Impala SS and consider it the best car bar none among the vehicles being compared on this thread"

    May I ask which vehicles you have driven on this thread? The Impala SS is a nice vehicle but in my opinion, GM's own Lucerne V8 trumps it in terms of Luxury and ride. Not to mention the Avalon or Azera that provide almost similar power and better FE out of a V-6, without the need for DOD or any other electronic gadgets. Lets hope these new DOD systems GM and Chrysler have don't prove to be problematic like the early ones Caddy had in the late 70s early 80s.

    I guess if all you are looking at is 0 to 60 the SS wins and is a nice "sleeper" car. However, IMO, there are too many downsides to consider it a class leading vehicle.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • 101649101649 Posts: 192
    Bose stock system the best???? Come on....You haven't driven or listened to many stock systems on other vehicles..That system is blown away by the stock systems in BMW's, Mercedes', and Lexus'...I don't think we use the imperial or metric systems in the US ....who cares about kph?? It also appears that you haven't driven the new CVT trannys.....
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I meant GM's transmissions are relatively trouble free
    while it is certainly true that the 'American' trannies have been relatively trouble free (and cheaper to fix) I submit that this is more a function of how relatively simple and outdated they are. This is rapidly becoming a thing of the past now that even Ford/GM/Chrysler are putting these newer more complicated higher tech 'electronic' trannies in their products as well. The days of the $1500 tranny repair is about over!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Suggest to you, allmet, that the average new carbuyer is NOT effectively looking for anywhere near 100k of use. They simply get tired of a specific car, are lured by something shinier (or higher tech), and therefore, as statistics would indicate, put maybe 60k on a car in the 4 years you are talking about. And then promptly take some sort of bath trading it in on a newer model! Warranty, long or short, will rarely come into play for this buyer as it might if those warranties were transferrable and we all took a more intelligent (in a financial sense) approach and bought all our cars a coupla years old.
    For my part, I also put 25-30k on my car/year and regard 100-150k as the point at which I likely want to be looking for something new - if only because I can afford NOT to have to be inconvenienced by any sort of mechanical problems. Warranty plays little role in any car buying decision I make - I look under the hoods first, FE second, resale value (as it relates to COO) third, and mfgr. history fourth - which, I guess, is how I end up in an Avalon.
  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    An excellent choice of a vehicle. I totally agree with you on 4 points of your choice. However in my case FE was not main concern since I drive mostly on highways and most cars on this forum average 25-30 mpg. Though I have Maxima and I love it but in 25-35 K I agree that Avalon is the best combination of Value, FE, resale value and reliability. The only reason I did not buy it , its not my age car and was more expensive than maxima.
    Sorry Azera lovers, but your car's only advantage is price and not Value that you get with Avalon.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Lol, if the worst analysis we Azera owners get is that the Avalon is a better overall value, somehow I am not that offended. If I had wanted to spend the additional $3-5K upfront to get an Avalon, I would be thrilled to own another one. But, I did not want to spend the extra cash and so am very happy with its closest rival, and the cash still in my pocket.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    its not my age car
    an unfortunate perception that the Avalon has going back to the days (2004 and earlier) when they really were luxed out (and certainly very tame) Camrys. As an owner/former owner of 4 VQ engined Nissans, it was the G35, the Maxima, and the TL that topped my shopping list a coupla years back - if anybody would have told me that I would end up in an Avalon - now that would've really gave me a good laugh. Anyway, the G35 was easily the best driving car (for obvious reasons) but simply too small, the Acura (believe it or not) too rough riding and too much torque steer, the Maxima, substantially less expensive but didn't like the interior (SL) and, of course, the torque steer. Didn't even know about the new Toyota V6 at the time and what Toyota had done to the Avalon - drove one (the tightened up Touring model) and the rest is history. I really do believe though that the 05+ Avalon might just be the ultimate traffic light sleeper and likely leaves some streaks in the drawers of those traditional 'geezer' Avalon owners, but I too would have told you not too long ago that is 'not my age' as well ;)
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    I have driven all the vehicles on this thread. The Lucerne, another GM offering, is an excellent vehicle and would have been my second choice but it is slower than the SS and has a floatier ride. It is also more expensive. The DOD is seamless and suffers from none of the reliablity issues that plagued the earlier Cadillac. It is truly an ingenious system and contributes to a highway mileage of 28-29 mpg on the highway in my car. For 303 hp and 323 ft.-lb. of torque, it simply has no comparison. The Avalon is plagued by transmission issues as have been well documented on the boards, at least in some cars. The SS has no such issues. The Azera I found to have a cheap interior and I am not really into Hyundai's depreciation. As for the "downsides" to which you refer, I have yet to find any in the SS.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Wrong, bud. I have indeed listened to all the stock systems of which you make mention and for the significant increased costs commensurate with the cars in which these systems appear, their superiority of sound is marginal at best. For value and overall quality, the audio system in the SS (Bose) is more than comparable.

    And yes, you do use the Imperial system of mileage in the US. Where the ablity to adjust the units to metric or Imperial comes in very handy is if you drive the car in both the US and Canada, which I and many others do, so that you can switch effortlessly between the two and this is a very great convenience. It represents yet another indication of GM's attendtion to detail.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "As for the "downsides" to which you refer, I have yet to find any in the SS"

    IMO here they are:
    Torque Steer
    Smallish Interior (compared to others in segment)
    Resale value not much better than Hyundai
    City gas mileage when DOD not engaging

    What speed is your 28 -29 MPG at? The website claims 16/24 I guess thats the new standard. My Avalon will pull at least 30 at 70-75. Not too bad either. The Impala is only .4 seconds quicker to 60 than the Avalon, shows you what the extra weight of the V8 does.

    There are thousands of happy Avalon owners without trans problems (me being one) and Toyota issued a TSB for a software reflash to correct those having a problem. I believe you will stop hearing about this issue. I hardly would call it a plauge.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    " really do believe though that the 05+ Avalon might just be the ultimate traffic light sleeper"

    Yes it is... :) Had a guy in a early 90s Honda Civic with a fart can on it try. After he got a good look at the back of the Av at the next light he asked what I did to the engine I said "Bone Stock" he said "Bulls***" I said no really it is!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Styling??? :confuse: Since when has any police cruiser been stylish? LMAO Okay, okay, okay...you ARE entitled. :P I would have to say right now, the most stylish domestic entry would have to be the Buick Lucerne...very nice styling, very lethargic V-6. Of course, this is all personal opinion!
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Torque steer is non-existent unless you drive like a maniac.

    The interior could hardly be described as "smallish" at 104.5 cubic feet. The trunk adds another 18.6 cubic feet. The Avalon trunk, incidentally, is 14.4 cubic feet while the cabin is 106.9 cubic feet. Hence, the total interior space in the Impala SS actually exceeds that in the Avalon.

    The SS is a relatively low production model and resale value should hold its own partly on that basis.

    City gas mileage is about 16-17 in my particular car. My 28-29 mpg on the highway is at a constant 70 mph on relatively level terrain. I consider this excellent for an engine with 303 hp and 323 ft.-lb. of torque. Incidentally, not only is the SS faster from 0-60 than the Avalon but it also has a higher top end speed at 154 mph.

    Consider yourself fortunate if you have no transmission problems. According to the various enthusiast boards the issue is not uncommon and also involves the new Camry and Lexus 350. The Impala SS transmission (which is a heavier duty iteration compared to the other Impala models) is as smooth as glass and gives instant response when you engage the accelerator. GM is known to build probably the best automatic transmissions in the business. I know I am more than pleased with mine.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    The Lucerne is a classy car and a viable option in this segment, tho the V-8 version is slower than the Azera V-6 and gets less fuel economy. I looked seriously at the car before buying my Azera.
    I passed on the Buick because it doesn't offer a folding rear seat and even with my discount the Buick is about $5K more.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    I had a 2001 Tahoe for 5 years ( the one with the piston slap ) and it was a bit noisy for the first minute of driving after the first start of the day. Other than that, the 5300 Vortec in that truck is a fantastic engine.
    It returned decent fuel economy ( 19.5 MPG highway and 16 overall ) considering it was lugging almost 3 tons around with the aerodynamics of a brick. It also towed a trailer weighing 10,000 pounds.
    In other words, the piston slap is not a big deal.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    Although I'm not a fan of the SS ( torque steer being the biggest complaint ) I disagree with your statement concerning extra weight of the V-8.
    The all- aluminum pushrod V-8 is not a heavy engine, in fact it weighs less than the supercharged V-6 that it replaced in a number of GM cars. 4 steel cams riding high on a DOHC engine are not the lightest of worlds either.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "The Avalon trunk, incidentally, is 14.4 cubic feet while the cabin is 106.9 cubic feet. Hence, the total interior space in the Impala SS actually exceeds that in the Avalon"

    The Avalon's trunk is a little on the small side, but who counts the trunk in interior volume???????? No one will ever sit back there unless Tony Soprano is driving the car.
    My point is sit in the Avalon front and rear and tell me which has more room. I have driven a # of Impalas as rentals, believe me much smaller.

    "Torque steer is non-existent unless you drive like a maniac"

    I'll admit to having a little fun while driving, but merging onto a busy hghway is hardly driving like a maniac.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "I disagree with your statement concerning extra weight of the V-8"

    The Impala SS is heavier than the Avalon, that weight came from somewhere. Maybe I was wrong to assume the engine. However, any more weight on the front wheels of any of these cars is not a good thing.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • alexstorealexstore Posts: 264
    Buick is now sharing same spot on reliability ladder as Lexus.
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