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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "Doesn't sound right. C&D reached 6.5 in the Sonata 3.3"

    Thats the #'s they got when they last tested it (from their website). There are so variables when they do 0-60 and 1/4 miles that it could easily be a few tenths off from test to test.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Plekto,

    You are right that there are a # of deals in the used car market, however I wouldn't touch a 5 year old S430 with a ten foot pole. There are so many electronic gizmos in that thing I feel it would nickle and dime you to death. The last thing I want is a 18 - 20K car loan on a five year old out of warranty vehicle. I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.

    BTW a coworker has an '05 or '06 S430 4matic. He rode in my Avalon and said the ride was everybit as good. I said nah, can't be. So he let me take it for a spin. Not that much different (little more controlled and quieter). However, that vehicle had the nicest leather I have ever felt and the attention to detail is amazing. As it should for 85K.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Note - I didn't single out Hyundai. I was talking about ALL of the 20-something thousand, boxes out there. But, yes, a fancy Hyundai or Chevrolet or Mercury is still a Hyundai, a Chevrolet, or a Mercury.

    And, yes, a used luxury car without the nav and other nonsense can be a fantastic car. Even used, it drives, handles, and will be a LOT better to drive than a typical "sedan".

    ****
    I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.
    ****

    this is like saying you could buy a used 911 or a new Miata. There's a whole level that you gain with the better used car that isn't there with the new budget car. It's not just a matter of pure economics.
  • makigrlmakigrl Posts: 19
    What about the Hyundai Genesis its pose to be their first car with a V-8 engine and rwd that will start around $30,000. The low end model will have the 260 something V-6 found in the Azera and then a higher level model with a 350 HP V-8. Like there trying to make a nicely styled vehicle that is sporty and more powerful than any of the other cars Hyundai has made.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you make a number of good points here - the 'Japanese' tradition of obligation to its 'family' among them. I also have very little doubt that given a choice of supplying a part to an 'American' mfgr. vs. a 'Japanese' one most of those parts suppliers would take the latter. Putting component part suppliers on a continual bid (low price wins) basis is only an invitation to shortcuts in quality by those suppliers - something more likely to show up with age.
    As far as JDP's opinion of things go - it is a 'sponsored' award and therefore very suspect in that it ALWAYS seems to end up with those manufacturers (Hyundai,GM, and Ford, for example) that seem to NEED it the most and will pay for the use of the JDP 'trophy' in advertising campaigns etc. Amazing that folks pay any attention to it anymore!
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    I agree. In my area, most people who are going to buy used buy a three year old off-lease Lexus with about 25,000 -35,000 miles on it. This way they may have a little warrantly left and they can drive it for a few years before it hits 100,000 miles.

    I would be scared financing a car with 65,000 miles on it because I would have to spread it out over 4 or 5 years.
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    'The low end model will have the 260 something V-6 found in the Azera'

    Insiders are reporting that Hyundai will upgrade the present 3.8 V6 to 300hp.

    The 4.6 V8 is being reported to crank out 365hp.
  • tonycdtonycd Posts: 223
    Begging your indulgence -- admittedly drifting a bit off-topic here. But my personal take is that JD Power isn't the most dishonest automotive award out there.

    My impression is that JD Power does legitimate surveys. From there, they let the automakers cherry-pick the outcomes, such as creating a category of one so the carmaker can advertise "Most Appealing Entry-Level Small Midsize Wagon with Mudflaps." But at least this doesn't do an injustice to other entry-level small midsize wagons with mudflaps.

    A far worse offender is Motor Trend's Car of the Year, the award infamous for being outright bought by ad pages. How else did the molten Chevy Caprice taxicab win? I'm surprised the trophy isn't a pair of calipers with a wad of 20's stuffed in the middle.

    And worst of all in my book is the "Consumers Digest Best Buy." It's not only an award that's routinely bought, but its name deliberately leeches off the credibility of the actually credible Consumer Reports (and even the pretty decent Consumer Guide). I wish CU could sue the pants off these guys, and I'm sure they're perpetually seething that they can't. GM, naturally, sells a ton of these "winners."
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I agree- I would also guess that JDP is not the most 'dishonest' BUT any award given by anybody where the awarder receives any sort of monetary compensation (usually in the form of advertising revenues) by the awardee - must be regarded as suspect.
    It is beyond me how JDP (and the car mags, Consumer Digesat and others you mention) can claim impartiality, when they know, for example, that should they give one of those little trophies to the Taurus that Ford will put it in TV ads in a NY minute, while Toyota/Honda/Nissan probably won't - if only because those particular mfgrs have customers that expect it.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    That's what I am hearing. The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy.
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    re 2899 ; "The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy."

    Isn't that an oxymoron.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    more like technology advancement.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    "The doors sound hollow when you close them."

    Actually...the doors on the Azera do NOT sound hollow at all when you close them. Something I was quite impressed with when I took my initial test drive. When I went to replace the stock door speakers, I found out why...a very nice aluminum panel sits behind the door panel. No holes in it except for where the speaker is mounted. All window components are attached to the panel for a solid build.

    Sure...you can pick up a used S430, then get ready to pay out the nose for preventive maintenance on it! :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Makigrl...I'm definitely a fan of Hyundai at this point, but right now...the Genesis has to hit the showrooms before anyone can really get too excited about it. I mean...the Azera definitely would lead those of us that know about them, to truly anticipate the Genesis for all it has to offer, but until it actually shows up...all we can do is hope that the Azera really is a building block for Hyundai to do bigger and better things.

    I for one, am anxiously awaiting the first glimpse of the new Genesis when Hyundai finally decides to drop it on us. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Frankly, the number of airbags, was probably at least as important.

    If you aren't in North America, I will retract my statement (assuming you live on an autobahn with unrestricted speed), but if you regularly take a softly sprung vehicle to twice-legal speeds, airbags (and some common sense) should be on the top of your shopping list IMO.

    Can I ask WHY you would go 140 in a softly sprung car on a road made for speeds that are likely half that? I've just gotta know.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Please note, I do not engage in such activity to often, however I feel it necessary for the sake of knowing my car. I do this with every car I've owned, push it to find out just what it's capable of doing. You never know when you'll need to push it and there's nothing wrong with knowing in advance just how far you can.

    How often do you find it necessary to go 120+ MPH?

    I may be a STRANGE teenager (I'll be 20 in less than 2 weeks), but I've never found the NEED to go over even 100 MPH, much less 140.

    The only time I've ever gone faster than was probably intelligent was when my great grandmother had a heart attack and I rushed to the hospital across town from school. I did 95 in a 60/70 (it goes back and forth) with my flashers on. It isn't because the car wouldn't go faster, because my car is limited to 130 MPH according to Motor Trend.

    My great-grandmother is still living (95 years old and still going strong!!).

    Let me ask, have you ever blown a tire at 130 MPH? I'm guessing no, since you are here to tell about it.

    I'm not riding your case, I just can't fathom "needing" to know that my car can go 140 MPH, since there aren't but a handful of US roads capable of safely handling a car going anywhere near that fast.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Has anybody out there driven the new Taurus?

    Thoughts/feelings about this car?

    My grandmother is looking at them and I'd like to know some things to look for good and bad before going into a test drive with her.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Like I said, I push every car I own and I've owned about 9 different cars...do the math.

    If you're scared...get a big wheel! LOL

    Actually...driving that fast because your grandmother is having a heart attack is much less intelligent than you think. You're driving off of emotion and you're not thinking clearly. Trust me...I'd rather do it with a clear thinking of what it is I'm doing.

    Nope...never blown a tire at that speed. I make sure I always keep good rubber on my wheels. If I know my tread is weearing, I definitely don't engage in such activity.

    What I base as a need for me, may not be a need for you. We are two different drivers my friend. You stick to what you know and I'll keep on with what I know...hasn't failed me yet!

    Actually...there are plenty of roads that can safely handle a car going that fast, the problem is the number of drivers that can't handle going that fast.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    That's what I am hearing. The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy.
    You Hyundai guys are sounding more and more like you all come from Dearborn - expressions like 'that's what I hear' it 'will do this or that' and/or continually living in the 'next generation'. Doing as you suggest - same (or better) HP with improved FE should require some rather substantial changes in valvetrain technology, fuel control, computer and tranny control programming - none of which I've ever seen from Hyundai - engines not noted historically for either HP or FE, never mind both. Not that it can't be done - witness what Toyota did with the 2GR a few years ago. 'Promises, promises' or put another way - 'show me the money'.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    The funny thing is...the FE is really not THAT bad in the Azera. It's not the greatest, but it sure could be worse. Between that and the soft suspension...those are really the only knocks against the Azera. Two out of how many? I like those odds!

    Who knows, maybe the Genesis will have all of that to show the world that they can truly compete!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    allmet - suggest to you that 'Korean' FE issues have at least as much to do with weight as it does with what's under the hoods. It takes some engineering, lighter (more costly) materials, and money to build light AND well.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Build lighter...I'm sure they can do. Build better...oh, it's already built well.

    I'm not saying the FE can't be better, I'm just saying it's not as piss poor as some make it seem. Funny, the Maxima's FE is pretty similar in numbers and yet...nobody is making a fuss about it.
  • vic10vic10 Posts: 188
    "My grandmother is looking at them...."

    That meant to be a critique of the car???

    Didn't drive the Taurus but rented the 500 for a business trip. Lots of glass so good visibility. Seats comfortable but narrow (my size 34 filled them). Not much foot room it seemed. Depending on what Gram is use to driving, this could be a negative: In spite of the visibility, the car felt--i.e. maneuverability--like a big, rather clumsy vehicle, and that is relative to my 300C. If Gram is use to Crown Vic's or maybe a pickup, no problem....
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    The first thing to note is that many use the term "softly sprung" to mean the Azera cannot safely handle higher speeds, i.e. 100+. I would not agree with that. I think the suspension is not what you would want for a road course, but on an Interstate (Colo has a 75mph speed limit) type road or other smooth generally straight road the suspension seemed to easily handle 100+ speeds. It was very stable at 140, but again, this was a straight smooth road. I was not feeling the "float" as some call it, and that I have felt in other cars.

    As to why -- Simple, I wanted to get some idea of its high speed capability, I was not trying to get to its top speed or go over the rating of the tires -- Again, a one time thing (at least in the US). BTW, when the interstate highway system was first built back in the 50's, it was designed to handle speeds of at least 80mph, except where posted less. This was with 1950's tires, suspensions, and brakes. In fact, the speed limit on I-80, in Nebraska, used to be 80mph, back in the 60's. Of course, this was also when Nevada had NO set upper speed limit. Same with Montana. So, the idea that many roads at least in the West weren't designed for at least half of 140 is simply not accurate. 100+mph driving was not uncommon back in the late 60's and early 70's on certain routes and in certain states. Perhaps some of the older drivers on this forum who ever made the LA to Vegas run have some stories to tell about speeds they drove or encountered.
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Posts: 468
    I have driven the new Taurus three times. It's a transformed vehicle with not only more power but much improved noise, vibration, harshness. Its ride is cushy. It's no sport sedan, rather more like a Ford Avalon. I will buy one this year. . AS FOR THE SPEEDERS, i think you are quite silly and dangerous.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, some of my grandmother's previous cars are her current 2002 Accord, a '96 Accord, '91 Civic, '84 LTD (the Fairmont based sedan), a Granada, and a Torino.

    The Taurus felt huge to me just sitting in it, but I never got in the driver's seat, just the passenger. I've actually heard good things about this car as far as ride, power, and the overall experience - very smooth and cushy seems to be the theme, which would be good.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Posts: 352
    same (or better) HP with improved FE should require some rather substantial changes in valvetrain technology, fuel control, computer and tranny control programming
    I agree that some tranny control programming could help.
    I am very happy with my Azera, and the biggest gripe I have with the car is its inability to give a part throttle downshift when accelerating off the ramp and onto the freeway. They probably programmed the tranny to hold higher gears for economy, but the economy goes down the tubes when I have to floor it to get a downshift.
    Yeah, I know it has a very nice autostick, but the car is so quiet, you can't hear the engine to qauge RPM and must take your eyes off the road to see what gear it's in. That all takes too much time.
    As far as Hyundai not being noted for engine technology, neither is Cadillac, but their direct injection version of the 3.6 engine has about 40 HP more than the standard motor and is capable of higher fuel economy due to its higher compression ratio - so it can be done.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The phrase you are looking for is DI, as in direct injection. I am not telling you something that hasn't been done before - as a matter of fact, Toyota's 2GR you brought up is the perfect example, its 2GR-FSE utilizes DI.

    Believe what you want to believe, but this isn't an opinion or someone's fantasy. You will see a 3.8L V6 300hp with good F/E numbers in a Hyundai application.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    So...why don't you just switch it over to manual mode when making your grand entrances onto the highway??? You can hold a lower gear for a longer period to make sure the power doesn't drop off should you need to punch it. I think the gearing would be a little different if it didn't have the Shiftronic feature.

    As for what gear it's in...it only takes a nanosecond to peek at the dash, but I go by feel now that I've been driving it for more than a year.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Actually, THE biggest improvement in engines in the last 50 years will be electronic valve control(EVC). They will replace the entire top end of the engine with servo-controlled valves. No flywheel, timing chain/belt, no lifters, no camshaft! All of that is just GONE. In fact, most of what you put oil into a car for won't be there, or required, which will increase reliability as well.

    They expect it to increase power and significantly reduce cost and complexity in engine designs.

    http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/application.jsp?nodeId=02Wcbf56hRCrcd
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