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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,184
    > why would you want one with the 3.8 when you can get the

    The Lucerne has the Northstar V8 available in two of the three models if you believe the 3800 isn't powerful enough for your driving needs. The three models have three different handling feels also. You can't stereotype all three from the 3800 CX which replaces the base LeSabre level cars.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    IMO there is absolutely no reason to buy a V8 when the other engines in this class (2GR, VQ, Hyundai 3.8) give you essentially the same power with better MPG. Tell me this... why won't GM put the 3.6 six speed tranny in this car??? The smaller cheaper LaCrosse has it. I've said this before, the Lucerne is a very nice automobile and maybe GM's nicest looking sedan... but get rid of the 3.8 its ancient, rough and underpowered. I just can't change my feelings on this and couldn't buy a 2007 model year car that had the same running gear as my 98 Olds 88.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Probably because the Northstar looks mighty weak next to the 3.6L V6. 2 Extra cylinders and an extra liter of displacement buys what, 15 horsepower? Nobody would buy the V8!
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Good point, they would need to put the 292HP version from Caddy in. It will be in the "Super" coming out soon. The 3.6 could be standard and then the V8 could be an option in the CXS and standard on the Super. They are losing people on an otherwise nice car because of powertrain options. I know there are many people that pray to the God known as the 3800... but its time has passed.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,184
    There's a substantial difference in torque at 2000-2500, e.g. for the Northstar even in the Lucerne version.

    As for your comments about the 3800, I find it's very competent. I don't dragrace. I don't do hotrodding around corners. To each his own, but I find it nicely competent and would replace my current one with a 3800 Series II or Series III if the need arises.

    3.6 LaCrosse

    image

    Northstar Lucerne

    image
  • There is no point buying that Lucerene because the base price would be $37K. They need to at least but the 4.6L V8 320 hp engine from the new STS and XLR that comes with a 6 Speed Auto.
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Posts: 124
    Drove the 3800 for several years in a work Bonneville - acceleration was fine but certainly a bit rough.

    Have driven both the CXL with the V6 and the CXS V8 - power good for both, but the smooth powered acceleration of the V8 was much better for me and I liked the handling better.

    Have driven Honda, Toyota, etc. updated V6 and certainly they are more than sufficiently powered and I suspect in a race would run rings around the V8 Buick. But of course, these are not designed for hot-rod enthusiasts.

    For many of us that grew up with V8's there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match. This, of course, is an "old school" thing and I can fully understand why much of the younger crowd thinks we are nuts.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match"

    I know what you are saying and have driven my share of "old school" autos mostly full size Fords. Anyway, the newer V6's are so smooth you can't usually tell what RPM they are at anyway. My point continues to be if you can get almost equal power from a smaller more efficient motor that is the way to go, especially in a FWD.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "There is no point buying that Lucerene because the base price would be $37K. "

    That price is inline with the Avalon Limited and a bargain compared to some of the Luxury nameplates Buick wants to go after.

    I'll give you one better, the Lacrosse Super will get the 5.3L from the Impala SS and will be cheaper than the Lucerne what sense does that make? I know that from an engineering standpoint it makes sense (same platform) but how do you market that? The flagship car gets a lesser motor.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Posts: 124
    "Anyway, the newer V6's are so smooth you can't usually tell what RPM they are at anyway. My point continues to be if you can get almost equal power from a smaller more efficient motor that is the way to go, especially in a FWD."

    Rest assured that I have no basis to argue the smoothness of the 6 vs. the 8 - just a matter of personal preference.

    As far as FWD goes, I have found more FWD torque problems on the wife's 4 cyl Camry than on the V8 Buick. After all, GM has been making large FWD cars for many years and they seem to have that issue solved.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The graphs above show a lot, though.

    4400rpm for both engines. This is reasonably the most anyone will push their car, ever, even during really hard launches. 3400 is actually more reasonable.(they used to rate the engines at 3800rpm a decade ago, which is more realistic).

    V6: 3000rpm - 125HP/225lb-ft.
    4400rpm - 180HP/220lb-ft.

    V8: 3000rpm - 150HP/270lb-ft.
    4000rom - 250HP/295lb-ft.

    And this isn't the miserable 3.8L. Closer to 100HP at 3000rpm - it's a very sluggish engine at low RPMs, especially when pulling as heavy a vehicle as the Lucerne.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Just read in latest Autoweek that 2008 Accord will be considered a large sedan. Should/could the 08 Accord be added to this board? It will certainly be more mainstream in sales volume than any car listed in the heading of this board.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's see how it goes. A day or two ago I said let's leave in the Midsize Sedans discussion because that's where its main competitors are. I don't want to add it here, too, at least not now.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    It would make sense as Honda has no large sedan in it's stable. The Accord would compete with the Avalon, Azera, Maxima, etc. and the the Civic would step up to compete with the Sonata, Camry, Altima and the likes.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Uh...not really.

    Accord will remain Honda's entry in the midsize sedan class but with the larger interior it can steal some sales away from Avalon, Altima and Azera.

    Civic will still be Honda's entry in compact sedans.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Leave the Accord where it is... its too funny reading the Fusion VS Accord war that goes on in the midsize comparo. When is Honda going to come out with an answer to the Avalon and Azera? Seems to me they are missing out. The RL is really priced too high to compete with Av/Azera (IMO).

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Uhhhhh...really, it's the interior space that determines what class a vehicle goes into.

    So how can you state that it will remain their mid-size entry when someone else is stating it will be considered a large sedan for 2008???

    Have you noticed, the Civic has been getting bigger and bigger with each passing model year? Eventually...the Fit will grown from sub-compact to compact.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Exactly why they need to bump the Accord up. Don't see why it couldn't be a worthy competitor in the large sedan class.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes, the Civic has grown but so have its competitors. It's not like Civic is the only one in the compact sedan category getting larger, everybody is. Don't forget technically speaking Sonata is a large car too, wouldn't that make Azera kind of irrelevant? Also, Accord is a large car only when it's without the moonroof, with the moonroof Accord is again a midsizer.

    Today's compact sedan (class) is yesterday's midsizer (size) and today's sub-compact (class) is 10 years ago's compact (size). This is the trend throughout the auto industry, not just Honda.

    With Accord big enough to be a large car but also not that big to be excluded totally from midsize it gives Honda a weapon to attack both markets. Honda really doesn't need a dedicated large sedan because 1. the market is really not growing and is small compare to midsize and compact 2. Honda is really not that big enough to support another low volume sedan in its lineup. I can see Honda to field a Genesis competitor in the future with SH-AWD but then that'll make the Acura TL/RL totally pointless.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I'm not denying the fact that other makes have growing compacts, but Honda is the only one without a large sedan model. By the way, have you seen the Sentra or the Corrolla lately? Don't look much bigger than previous models. Civic...oh, it's definitely larger than the previous model.

    Actually, it was pointed out that the Sonata isn't a large sedan. It was brought up in here before and shot down because someone pointed something out about something or other, can't remember exactly what it was.

    Azera...irrelevant? Yeah, right! The Sonata can't touch the Azera!

    Again, Honda is the only one without a legitimate large sedan competitor. Honestly, it sounds like this talk is making some folks nervous!

    I say...either push the Accord up into the large sedan class, or...use the RL and make a Honda equivalent to compete in that class. Either way, Honda will be competing eventually.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I don't know about you guys but I am not giving up my Avalon for an Accord no matter what the car is considered. It is still too small. The large car market should be growing with people getting out of Suburbans and Expeditions but maybe they are just going to crossovers (AKA minivans with big tires.)

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Uh...

    The current Corolla is a 6-year-old design, I'll bet you when the new one comes next year it'll get considerably larger as well (BTW, the current one is about the same size as Civic). What about Elantra, I think it gets pretty big as well. Actually it's bigger than the current Civic in every category.

    Elantra and Civic

    So does that mean the Elantra is ready to take on Camry, Altima and its own big bro Sonata?

    According to EPA's figure, if the '08 Accord is a large car then the Sonata is as well, no matter how you spin it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    I only pointed out a fact. You may be right, it might be bigger, then again...it really hasn't grown in size much the past couple model years.

    Yes, it is bigger than the Civic, but not big enough to go into mid size sedan territory.

    No...the Sonata will remain the competitor to the Camry. You're really going too deep with all of it. I only said that it would make sense for Honda to push the Accord up so that it would finally have a competitor. That being said, the Civic could be pushed up to compete with the Camry, Sonata and Altima.

    Maybe, you need to have a talk with the EPA. ;)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    "According to EPA's figure, if the '08 Accord is a large car then the Sonata is as well, no matter how you spin it."

    Correct, especially since the Sonata is 1.5 cu ft bigger than the Accord.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match.

    You are exactly correct. The torque in my '06 Impala SS is fabulous. Nothing can touch it for extreme smoothness combined with awesome power, certainly not any six cylinder motor!
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Ummm, no. Just as the Sonata was never added here, the Accord shouldn't either. No offense to either fine automobiles.

    Just for the record, the Sonata became a large car per EPA in Q1 2005, and the Accord in Q3 2007. Which car will be next? Mazda6 is next but I don't think it will get there. Which car is up for redesign after Mazda6?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    I agree and was just pointing out that there are other mid-sizers considered large by EPA.

    On the other hand, some eyes might be opened if there were a comparison of the Accord & Azera; car for car, spec for spec, feature for feature and dollar for dollar in real world money.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I don't know how but Hyundai uses interior volume + trunk space extremely well:

    Accent: compact per EPA / subcompact in competing class
    Elantra: midsize per EPA / compact in competing class
    Sonata: large per EPA / midsize in competing class

    I don't think there is another lineup which offers the above, and to tie into this forum, despite the Azera being shorter than the Avalon, the interior volume + trunk space is the same IIRC.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Agreed.

    By the way, there are only two midsize currently considered in the large car category per EPA. The Sonata and the new arrival - 08 Accord (louiswei is it true only without sunroof?). I thought the Optima would also share the stage but upon research it is a midsize, smaller than the Sonata, to my surprise. And a sidenote, the Optima is actually more related to the Elantra than the Sonata - something I didn't think it was right until I found out myself in person.

    Back to your regular programming...sorry for the sidetrack...
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes, Joe, it is true. The 2008 Honda Accord can only be considered as a large car without moonroof. With moonroof it goes back to midsize.
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