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Comments
If reliability is your pricipal goal, go with a CRV or a RAV4. They have the best resale too.
I told myself I would buy a different vehicle when this one dies. As much as I am pulling for impending doom, it just won't die. Oh well, the downpayment for the next car keeps getting bigger every month
I went to the PA Auto show on Friday and crawled over tons of cars. I ruled out the Corolla, Vibe and Matrix. The lack of telescoping steering wheel makes it too tight for daily driving over the next 5 or so years. Here are some of the choices still on my list:
Accord SE/LX
Civic LX
Camry CE/LE
Mazda 3 (2.0)
Mazda 6
Fusion/Milan
Nissan Altima
Nissan Versa
Nissan Sentra (???)
Hyundai Elantra (???)
Hyundai Sonata (???)
I had forgotten about the Mazda 6 since it is a slow seller. The general manager (he actually sold me an Accord back in 94 and remembered me.. or at least acted like he did) was willing to drop the price of the car by $1500 plus there is $1000 rebate plus another $1000 available for financing with Mazda, I believe. So $3500 off without any negotiation. The Versa surprised me with the available space.
I wanted to get some opinions on these vehicles considering my needs. BTW, no hybrids please. Never recoup the initial cost. (???) means these are at the bottom of my list.
Overall, I'm leaning toward the Accord SE (heard deals can be made on this vehicle) or the Civic (best gas mileage and plenty of room in the back seat for two kids).
But, you might also consider something domestic or a certified import, because $20K, or even $14K, buys a lot of used car.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail/photos/multiPhotoPopup.jsp?paId=219102680&t- racktype=usedcc&aff=national
Pontiac Grand Prix. $14K - only a few months old. Sure, it's an ex-rental, but it also has a 100k warranty on the drivetrain(2007 model) and with the GM 3800 engine in it, it's a blast to drive - lots more power than any 4 cylinder. Plus, it gets good mileage - 29 or 30mpg highway, IIRC)
I wanted to like the Dodge Caliber but the interior.... Let's just say, Chrysler has some serious problems ahead of them. At least Ford has the Fusion, Edge and Milan that should help sales.
Someone at work suggested a certified pre-owned Accord. Buying used may be the way to go. But I do need to test drive these cars. I'm thinking or eliminating the Mazda 3 from the list because of the tight pedal area. My size 14 shoes will have a hard time maneuvering between the accelerator and brake.
As for 4 cylinder imports, the second best combination is an Accord with a manual transmission. Shifts great and is a joy to drive - well, for what it is. It's still a commuter-box.
The best for the money is a Celica GTS. Superb transmission, loads of fun, cheap to maintain, and shoot, they didn't cost $20K to begin with, so used, they are easy to find for 12-14K or so. By great transmission - a newbie could learn stick in it in under a week it's so much better than any other greabox for the price.
Other than that, it's tougher. The older Volvos - the models before Ford started killing them - are nice, and so are some of the Saab 9-5s(IIRC, 2002/3 or so is when GM started cutting corners. The way to tell Swedish vs GM or Ford is if the headlights are glass or not. That's the first thing both companies did to cut costs.
I'm also partial to older Mercedes. The older *square* non-plastic ones, that is. It's more money to maintain, to be sure, but 12-14K on a late 90s S420 is hard to beat. Big, beautiful, and built to last half a million miles.
Or you could always screw MPG and get a classic car.
Like you I am pretty big 6'6" and the Mazda 6 with a telescoping steering wheel made it very comfortable. Plus the headroom with out a sunroof was huge.
I had the Wagon with the V-6 and my mileage averaged around 22. I would have liked the 2.3l 4cyl but the wagon only came with a V-6. I would expect the 4 to do about 28 to 30 on the highway.
My second choice would be an Impala because of the size and pretty good gas mileage. But if you are looking for a change from GM I can understand that.
I was at an Auto show on Friday and crawled through all the GM offerings. Again I will state, there is nothing that GM offers in it's car lineup that appeals to me. I like my Intrigue but I put up with some of its issues because I got a phenomenal deal on the car. If I had bought this new at over $22k, I would have traded it a while ago (flickering headlights, torque converter, ISS, burning oil, poorly designed hub assembly, etc.). I need a break from GM. Maybe in five years when their models have turned over.
I will stay away from used Saabs and Volvos. Too much to maintain after warranty is done. buying a 5-7 year old vehicle for over $12k is not my idea of money well spent esp. with the mies I will be putting on it. Good friend of mine has a 98 Volvo. Nice vehicle, nice ride and power but at least $500-$700 each time to the dealership. And he has been visiting the dealership quite a bit lately.
Keep the suggestions coming.
Another choice is a couple of year old CTS. Nice car - probably the only GM you'd like. The 3.6 is very nice to drive, especially with the sport package, which helps handling greatly. It's like two Malibus crammed into one much better car.
Or you could just go all out and get a 2003/2004 certified C230K Sedan. Maybe $15-16K. Note - this is the 4 door sedan with the 180HP 4 ylinder supercharged engine. With manual, it's inexpensive and nearly indestructable(just don't get a sunroof or the nav system and you should be fine). Quick, too. 35-40mpg highway is common, since it's a very small displacement engine.
It's also on my short list for next fall.
Have you tried the Civic ? I know you can get one for under $20k , and it's still going to have value after 5 years and 100k miles.
My cousin has a WRX(another good car, btw) - and it's nothing like the commuter boxes you see running around. Decently reliable, agile, fun, and yes, it has a rear seat
Oh - a 2003/2004 CTS is under $20K, believe it or not. They don't hold their value much better than the other GM stuff - and certainly less than the imports. Bad for the first owner - good for you.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=216200146
A typical 2004 with the 3.6 VVT engine. I'd *so* much rather have this compared to a Civic or Camry.
Who could ask for anything more!
The Sandman
(P.S....I think I've found some great Civic wheels to put on my baby. I'll know tomorrow afternoon. Wish me luck!)
The extra insurance, extra registration, and extra in taxes and payments will far FAR outstrip what you would pay in maintainence on a used 3-4 year old car. And you'll get things like ABS, side airbags, a nice stereo, and so on in the midsize/slightly sporty/better car that was originally in the 20-30K range when new than a bare-bones $15K car.(because with taxes and such it'll be out the door at closer to 19K)
My recommendation if you like the Scion is to get a Celica. Better car, same feel, same reliability, and it's cheap to insure and maintain. The GTS is sweet, but either is fine with a mnual transmission. No - really - it's a seriosuly fun car to drive stick in.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=211066530
Going to be hard to beat this - and a more realistic price is closer to $12-13K(he's asking full retail like several dealers are)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/270253583.html
Here's a typical GT.(I chose San Fransisco because it has the largest number of ads)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/268518217.html
Or this - a typical price - closer to low bluebook, which is about what most cars actually sell for these days.
tidester, host
I bought my Prizm back when I was only driving 10 miles each way to work. The highway manners didn't bother me at the time. Now I'm driving 30 miles each way to work plus a few hundred extra "work" miles during the week. The car is a horrible freeway cruiser. The new civic and scion may be better, but you may want to consider something larger.
Cliffnotes:
College Grad
USED Car $20k or less
At least 4 seats
Gas mileage no issue
Options, Decent Power (better than my current 120hp)
Probably keep for 3-4 years or so
Prefer Stick, but Auto not out of the question
Thoughts? Thanks.
In no particular order:
- The IS300 Sportcross with stickshift is a hard car to beat. I'd put it on the list. Yes, it's technically a wagon, but it's a hell of a car.
- A new base Mini if only because it holds its value incredibly well. You can sell one 3 years old for maybe $1000 depreciation per year.(one of only two new cars I'd consider)
- A Wrangler. The new redesign is sweet and it's amazing how it holds its value. Get this 1-2 years old and you're set. The 4-door/unlimited model is obviously the choice here, though it may run you close to 20K.
- Skip the GTO and get a 2004/2005 Cadillac CTS with the 3.6 engine and stick. This should run about $16-18K. Maintainence is reasonable, since it's a GM car - and it's a lot better to drive than a GTO, which is pretty miserable in twisties. Skip the sunroof, nav, and other bling to keep the maintainence issues to a minimum. Stickshift is tons cheaper - like 2-3 thousand cheaper to fix as well. This is the #1 reason I always get a manual transmission. $600-800 for a clutch I can afford. $3500 for a fancy mega-speed automatic? Yeah... not so much...
- RX-8. You can get one new for about 22K. This is the other car I'd buy new because it requires maintainence like a motorcycle or old classic car. You can't abuse it or neglect it and need to let it warm up before pounding on it. But it drives like absolutely nothing else for the price. Stickshift, RWD, and seats 4. Probably the closest to your ideal, though slightly over budget. Hold their value pretty well.
- A 2-3 year old Celica GTS. FWD, but it's an incredibly sweet ride and way, WAY faster with its manual gearbox than your Accord ever was. $12-$14K is a typical price and it's worth every penny. The only FWD car I actually loved to drive.
- A 1996-97 Mercedes S420. This is a noteable exception to the rule if only because this was the last hand-assembled Mercedes built to go 500K miles. $12K should buy you a near mint condition one and easily have enough left over to deal with maintainence costs. This is the only high-end luxury car that I'd recommend.
- Something classic. $10K will buy you a hell of an old used BMW or Mercedes or even most Muscle cars. My co-worker bought a Porsche 968 for $10K(plus 3K in fixing it up) last year and he's never EVER been happier Or you could always get an old Land Cruiser.
For a replacement for the Jetta we need the following:
Good driving experience for me (5')and husband (6')
Excellent comfort for two kids, 5 and 10 in the back seat, with the usual family friendly stuff (drink holders etc.)
Good (if not great) gas mileage
Low noise ... we want to take more road trips
Above average visibility (ie, NOT like the HHR)
We'd like the following:
Option for seating a fifth or sixth person for when Grannie comes to town (although we may just use the Protege for that)
There are two caveats that have made my search harder: hubby will not consider an SUV (of any size) or a minivan. I can't get him to even consider the vue hybrid.
So ... at the Chicago auto show I did get him to look at the Mazda5 and we might go that route (although the MPG and reports of road noise aren't good; and he thought visibility when looking rear right or left for changing lanes was poor); he liked the Versa (I did not like the back seats for the kids). The Fit also did not meet our needs. We didn't know then about the Rondo or we might have checked that out. He was too tall for the fusion. And while the kids loved climbing in and around the F350 and the ice cream truck, neither of those will work
We are also on a tight budget and need something under 20K (and if possible under 18K). Oh, and we want to get something that we can hold onto for about 10 years ... we'll probably put on roughly 9500 a year on the car, so this should be doable. It does, however, mean that buying used might not be our best option.
Any guides as to other cars we might want to look at? We are talking probably 4 months out, so we may be looking at some 2008s by then.
Thanks.
1) I like the Versa which is comfortable to me - and I am bigger than your husband. However, four people in that car is very tight.
2) The Rendevouz is an interesting vehicle but try it out first. Some people equate it with the Lexus Rx330. Others just plain hate it. You might be able to get one for around $20.
3) We have a 2007 Impala which I think is a great car for families BUT ... the back seat is not all that comfortable.
4) The Mazdas are popular, I have been driving the Mazda 3 for the last three weekends and have found it underwhelming and very loud. And the mileage has not been great/
5) The Ford Five Hundred is quite a bit larger than the Fusion and might work.
6) Many of the Chrysler sedans would work. The space in the back seat is really pretty good **BUT** I am worry about the
quality after about 70-80k miles/
No, seriously. Get a Lacrosse CXS. It seats 5 comfortably enough, and has the same engine they put in the Cadillac CTS. Very un-Buick like in how it drives.
And they depreciate like a rock the first two years, so a two year old one can be had for about $20K. Now, they aren't unreliable, so much as suffering from the rest of GM's dreck-like image. The GM engines are nearly bulletproof and the 4 speed automatic, while older technology, is also the least expensive automatic to fix currently. $1200-$1400 is common versus $3000-$4000 for the 5 and 6 speed automatics that are coming out.
2007 models will have the 5/100K warranty, which is dead simple to pay a little to extend that to 10/100K or simmilar if you don't drive very much. Expect to pay $18K or so for a one year old loaded model - and it's NOT BAD inside, either.
If you really need 6, you can drop to the 3.8L V6(one of the top 3 engines on the planet for reliability, btw), which is a little less fancy than the CTS engine, but that's closer to 15-16K used. Personally, I love the bench seat as it gives you nice space up front, but the CXS handles by far the best of any of GMs midsize sedans(other than the CTS that is -
I love the 3.6VVT engine because the torque curve plateaus at about 1600-1800rom and stays ruler flat all the way up to nearly redline. There's no throttle-lag. IT just... ZOOM - you're gone. Beefed-up suspension that's actually competant of once and.. it's a fun car to drive.(yes, I'm not smoking anything - lol)
The only other real choice would be this:
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70MEC021A0&restor- e=false
No, seriously - load it up, add two-tone paint(so it doesn't look like a government car), add traction control and such... and you get $18,900 delivered.
Now that's NEW. when the 2008s come around, you'll be able to get a 2007 model for closer to $17K out the door. No, really. $17,000.
That's a lot of car for not a lot of money. It seats 6, it's perfect for keeping for ten years and not driving many miles, and it's cheaper to fix than almost every car out there, and fits every criteria you listed except for "fun to drive" - but then again, I never found it boring, since it drives really well - big V8 sound and loads of torque.
i think wagons are great, and i can see them coming back into style in a few years anyways...
subarus are good cars too!
-thene
The biggest problem with BUYING a used Buick is finding a used Buick.I went to at least eight GM dealerships and found perhaps six buicks, mopstly Century models.
Just type in "CXS" in the search field (advanced options, IIRC on Aututrader) and enjoy. I highly recommend the dark grey over the lighter colors - it makes it look a bit beefier.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=216265119
Here's a perfect example. Low mileage, CXS package, and all the goodies. And not flat white.
Still looking up the grand marquis ...
(the overdrive gear is so tall that it consistently gets better than rated highway MPG - a nice feature of the GMs)
Leg room - well, it's not a Towncar or Lucerne. But it's the same size as a typical midsize car as well, which means that it's good for 5/6 in a pinch AND not a whale around town doing it.
Check out the reviews of the CXS.
Edmunds and most of the others hate Buicks as a rule, so their saying that the CXS roughly is equal to the Lexus ES is essentially saying that it's twice as good as the previous generation models.
Yet - You can't get a one year old ES for $20K.
Note - you could always spend 4-5K more and get a one year old Lucerne CXS, but that's probably too big. LOads of rear seat space, though.
I read your post and felt I absolutely must respond to it!
Test drove the '07 Kia Rondo LX this weekend and LOVED IT! It is built on a car platform, i.e., a crossover vehicle, so I don't think your husband will mind it at all. It has tons of headroom, great features and an optional 3rd row seating area. If you need an mp3 player hookup, you need to upgrade to the EX model and the 3rd row seat is also available on that with a V6 engine.
Overall after being at the Chgo Auto Show and falling in love with the Dodge Caliber, which I then test drove and was not in love with it as much since I hit my head getting out of the car (low sloping side to the car), I had also made note of the Kia Rondo. Have done considerable research on this vehicle and does not seem to have the challenges that say the Mazda5 has listed on their boards.
Seriously, go to a Kia dealership soon and test drive one. Just save an EX model for me since you are in Chicago!
Over the last few months, I have been renting a car nearly every weekend (Hertz Local Edition for $36 for three days outside the city of Chicago under the "FIFTY" promotion). In this time, I have had two Kias (with under 100 miles)which have been the worst vehicles that I have diven in recent memories.
I thought that the Caliber was an interesting vehicle and rented one in Las Vegas in January. While it handles well, I found that the gas mileage (at about 25 mpg in mostly highway driving) was fairly disappointing given the size of the vehicle.
Personally, I would look at the Toyota Matrix/ Pontiac Vibe in that category. I averaged 32 mpg for a week and the car handles well. At first, I hated it ... but all in all, it was one of the better vehicles of that type.
If the second row can really handle three people (which usually translates into me and the kids, which is why I have a very vested interest in how comfortable the second row is), we wouldn't neccesarily need the third row; although I hear that with the third row installed the second row has greater for/aft movement (to accomodate the third row, I guess).
Well, since we are maybe looking four months out, your Rondo Ex should be quite safe :P
Thanks for the suggestion. Spending a few bucks now versus backache/headache/etc later is sooo worth it.
Thanks!
The Mazda 5 is a nice car but make sure you test drive it with the whole family in it. It's low on the hp but high on the utility. The perfect car for is probably a CRV, RAV4, Escape, etc. Good space, decent gas mileage, etc. Matrix/Vibe is a good choice but again test drive it with everyone in the car.
Also reconsider which car you trade in. While the Jetta may be a money pit, I can't see the Protege lasting too much longer. You already got 17 years on it...
I recommend driving cars for a minimum of 300 miles so that you get a very good sense of the strengths and shortcomings of the vehicles. You can jump in vehicles at an auto show BUT until you put the car seats in, feel how you fit in a vehicle, and notice how it rides, you cannot make a good decision.
Example: I wanted to check out the Mazda 3. Cool car. Until I drove it. Cramped leg room, hard to reach the pedal. Loud, lots of road noise. Decent not great gas mileage. That one is off my list. The 2006 was a more comfortable than the new 2007 that I drove last weekend.
I like the ford freestyle as well ... great space, easy to get in and out of, decent gas mileage. It looks more like a large station wagon (don't all "crossovers"?). Cost is above what I can pay, and I'm unsure about reliability 10 years out. I'd have to check the price points on the RAV4, CRV, etc.
Thanks for the suggestion (and sorry for my error ...)
I see quite a few used 04-06 Mazda MPVs offered, for very reasonable prices. 06 ex-rental LXs go for between 13 and 15k at the dealers, and that's the asking prices. The ex-rentals usually don't have the side airbags, if that's important to you (MPVs did not have side curtains available.)
Decent room, somewhat nimble, appear fairly reliable, mediocre mileage but ok for a non-commuter vehicle. 4/50000 warranty helps. If I needed a 3-row vehicle on a 15k (or so) budget, that would be my choice.
If you like the freestyle, then the CRV, Escape, Santa Fe are all about the same MPG. And they may be a bit cheaper.
If you are really stuck at that price point, then the Mazda 5, matrix and Vibe may be the way to go.
Another option is a leftover MPV (I know, I know it's a minivan) Gas mileage on line with Freestyle. Those can be had for under $20k.
Good luck.
Jlawrence01 suggested the Mazda 3 and yes, I think it is a cool car. But perhaps not for you, your hubby and two kids. It is definitely a smaller car, but their hatchback version is really cool looking. I did not find it cramped, and at 5'9" I actually had to move the driver's seat forward. Steering wheel also telescopes out, which is an upgraded feature for this size of car.
As an alternative, you might want to consider the Mazda 5 as I think it is just above the Mazda 3 in price range. However, while it is built on a car platform and is like the Kia Rondo or Toyota Matrix or Pontiac Vibe, its rear doors actually slide shut like a mini van and my husband did not like that as much.
By the way, I currently own a Toyota Matrix and I have loved that vehicle for the last 4 years. Our lease is up and silly to say it, having a plug in for my iPod on the stereo is a must for my next vehicle, so that is the only reason why I'm not getting another Matrix. Toyota is not bringing the Matrix back b/c they are making a similar vehicle for '08 that is smaller, but similarly styled. Their Scion XB has done well for them so no more Matrix. But I can honestly say it is a GREAT vehicle. Probably my most favorite vehicle I've ever owned. Now let's see if the Mazda's come out favorably as a replacement when I test drive this weekend. They have my much sought after iPod connector.
Best wishes!
I DID **NOT** recommend a Mazda 3. In fact, I said that it was one of the most disappointing vehicles that I have driven this year, even if it is COOL,
I recommended the Matrix/Vibe twin,
And I said to avoid the Kia due to the bad reputation.
My current car is a 95 Maxima, and I really like the ride.
My perfect car is a BMW 3 series, I drove one for a weekend a while back and liked everything about it.
So here are some of the things I'm looking for, in order of importance...
1. Cost needs to be 30k or under OTD. But cheaper is better, if I can still get a decent car.
2. I'm 6 2, 185. So I'm pretty tall, medium build. But some cars just seem not to tailor my shape, and this doesn't depend on the class of the vehicle. For ex, I thought the Acura TL's cockpit was too confining up front width wise, but didn't have that problem in the Civic, due to the center console design being different.
3. I prefer new over used.
4. Ride is very important to me. To give a general idea what kind of ride I'm looking for, the 3 series is the benchmark. But I'm willing to compromise obviously. I thought the Lexus IS250's ride was fine enough. But a Hyundai Azera's ride was a tad soft for my taste.
5. I want a 4 door sedan.
Any suggestions?
Vibes are usually a better deal over the Matrix, and are identically mechanically.
My current car is a 95 Maxima, and I really like the ride.
My perfect car is a BMW 3 series, I drove one for a weekend a while back and liked everything about it.
Any reason you're not looking at an '07 Maxima? They're phenomenal cars, and if you're careful you can get one for under 30k. An '07 Altima with the V6 would fit the bill as well.
BMWs are nice, but personally I just can't stomach the maintenance/repair bills with German cars. Did that once, will never do it again. I'll stick with my Maximas.
It seems like Nissan slated the Altima in the position that my old Maxima used to be in.
I have given the Altima some serious thought, but I don't like the previous generation as much, so used is out. And I'm worried since this is the first model year of a redesign, along with a new CVT technology, it might be wiser to wait a year or two if I was to get an Altima.