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2007 Acura TL Type S



  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "Adding more horsepower to a FWD platform is, IMO, not the direction Acura should have gone. Summer, winter spring or fall."

    What did you expect for a MMC? I think Acura opened their ears a little bit and listened to what the consumers wanted i.e.
    Mirror Blinkers
    Quad exhaust
    New Taillights
    Carbon Shift Knob
    Race Pedals
    Pattle Shifters for AT
    Better Front Seats
    3 way steering wheel
    More HP
    Upgraded suspension

    I am sure there is more but the point is it is just a MMC!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes you were right, this is merely a MMC. IMO the regular TL will continue to do well because even with the slight price bump it is still the best bang for the buck in this segment. Most non-enthusiast whom don't care if it's FWD (and trust me there are a lot of them out there) won't be able to resist the complete package offered by the TL.

    HOWEVER, I personally doubt that the TL-S will repeat its success from the last generation. To me, $39,000 is just way too much for a FWD even with that stupid quad exhaust (what does it think it is? the M3?). With that price one can get a based 335i sedan (300 hp, 300 lb-ft and twin turbo), a IS350 with navi (306 hp and 277 lb-ft) and a G35 navi (with change!!). All 3 cars above have higher HP output (and no quad exhaust :surprise: ) than TL-S and most important of all, THEY ARE ALL RWD with AWD as an option (except the IS350). I am not saying that the TL-S is going to be a sales flop because I have learned not to doubt Honda/Acura. I guessed time will tell...
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "Who cut the corners in designing its flagship, Infiniti or Acura? M is also outsaling RL by several times."

    Infiniti's flagship- the Q sold a pitiful 342 units YTD in 06.

    M is definately selling more units than the RL but then again the M is not the flagship for Infiniti.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    But the M is comparable to RL doesn't it?

    Don't get me wrong, I loved the RL and Acura. However I think it's pitiful that Acura's flagship RL was outsold by the none-flagship Infiniti M and Lexus GS.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "HOWEVER, I personally doubt that the TL-S will repeat its success from the last generation."

    That remains to be seen.

    "To me, $39,000 is just way too much for a FWD even with that stupid quad exhaust (what does it think it is? the M3?)."
    Your opinion and your entitled to it. ;)

    "With that price one can get a based 335i sedan (300 hp, 300 lb-ft and twin turbo),"
    Key word is "based." Personally, I don't have the time to be taking a 3er to the shop for issues.

    "a IS350 with navi (306 hp and 277 lb-ft)"
    Nice car- quality product, luxury refinements and power are admirable- but way too small for me.

    "a G35 navi (with change!!)."
    07 G35 looks great! Definately alot of bang for the buck much like the base TL. However, I don't dig the interior/exterior styling.

    "All 3 cars above have higher HP output (and no quad exhaust)
    So? Styling is purely subjective.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    I don't want to change the focus of this discussion but to answer your question- yes!

    However, I was replying to someone ELSE'S post talking about flagships.

    M & GS have different models i.e. M35 & M45 and GS350 & GS450. More to choose from- MIGHT account for more sales.

    Will admit the RL is in some serious trouble for its own market class.

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    MMC or not, I see little real value in adding more horsepower to a FWD platform. It's 90% marketing, 5% performance and 5% stupid is as stupid does.

    I have to be careful "launching" my TL 6-speed with 258 hp. The wheel hop and torque steer under hard acceleration is significant and almost dangerous. Adding 30 +/- horsepower to a RWD vehicle (like my 911S, sorry louiswei) makes for a noticable improvement in performance. In the TL-S, I seriously doubt it will be much quicker than my 2004 TL, but it will exacerbate the wheel hop and torque steer.

    Now if they wanted to do it for free, fine. But trying to disguise the TL-S as a serious sports sedan and charging a $5k+ premium for it? I wish the Honda S2000 engineers would take the TL-S marketing folks out behind the offices and kick their butts.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    YOU might not see value in it. Others may. What did you think Acura was going to do? Implement AWD or heck RWD for a MMC?
    In the past the Type-S models have a proven track record for success. Maybe Acura was trying to take a second bite at the apple? Who knows.
    Until this car is actually fully tested and compared to the cars in this class, everyone's opinion about how this FWD will handle with 30+ hp is conjecture and at best- an educated assumption.
    I can't speak for your driving habits but surely you tested that puppy out before buying it.
    If Acura did it for free- what would it change? According to your conclusion this car has no value because it has added hp to FWD and would undoubtedly be dangerous.
    Acura should incorporate some of the engineering of the S2000 into the TL. But then again, folks will just think up another reason to dog the car.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    In addition to what ggesq said, don't forget that it is the norm for a non-flagship model to outsell a flagship. The lower-echelon (lower-priced) models always sell in higher volumes.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    like my 911S, sorry louiswei

    Nah, no biggie, if I have a 911S I wouldn't be able to stop talking about it as well. It's all good as long as you are not trying to compare the 911S to 4 door sedans like 3er, IS and G. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    don't forget that it is the norm for a non-flagship model to outsell a flagship.

    You are missing the whole point.

    RL - flagship for Acura
    GS - non-flagship for Lexus (flagship is LS)
    M - non-flagship for Infiniti (flagship is Q)

    However, the RL, GS and M are all in the same segment and comparable (as do the 5er and E-class). The only flagship sedan in this segment is the RL and I think it's pitiful that the flagship from Acura is outsold in it's own segment by bunch of non-flagship competitors.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    Since you are insistent on staying w/ this subject, let's look at some more "pitiful" flagships:

    Lexus sold 9k units of its flagship.

    Infiniti sold a whopping 342 units of its flagship.

    BMW 7 + Audi 8 combined do not exceed the market leader in the "flagship" segment of Mercedes selling 61k units.

    RL sales suck undoubtedly, but it's not the only flagship whose sales are floundering ;)

    Can we get back to talking about the TL-S now?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Last comment of this topic...

    RL vs. the competitors = flagship vs. nonflagships
    LS, Q, 7er, A8 and S-class = flagship vs flagship

    If you still can't figured out my point...too bad.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    I got your point just fine thanks. My point however is that every other flagship except the S-class is "pitiful" in sales just like the RL regardless of whether it is an apples to apples comparison or not.

    If you can't figure that out- then too bad for you too.

    "Last comment of this topic..."

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I understand your point. The RL does not sell well.

    What I can't figure is what that has to do with the TL or TL-S? I mean, the last generation RL was even less capable than the current model, but the last TL-S was a huge success.

    FWIW, the MDX has been serving as the "flagship" model in the Acura line-up since 2001. There's no rule stating that the best known or highest priced vehicle in the stable must be a four door sedan.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "FWIW, the MDX has been serving as the "flagship" model in the Acura line-up since 2001."

    Say what? A rebadged Honda Pilot is the flagship of Acura? Come on, you can't be serious. That would be a pitiful commentary on Acura. And I happen to be a happy owner of a 2005 MDX.

    I also believe that the RL is a failure as a "flagship". For whatever reason, Acura thinks they can't go too much over $50k. The RL has always been positioned well below the Infiniti Q and Lexus LS. So our next sedan is likely to be a 550i 6-speed (or equivalent in 3-4+ years) After buying a Honda S2000, TL 6-speed and MDX, Acura has run out of steam to take us to the next level. We don't want a Buick like Lexus ride, nor a funky Infiniti.

    Acura is a good company in general, but a terrible underachiever when it comes to building a true flagship. And even with low to mid $40k's pricing on the RL, the $60k+ Lexus beats the crap out of it in sales. Hell, if they didn't limit production BMW could probably sell as many $90k M5's at full MSRP as Acura sells RL's at invoice.

    But you are right, this has little to do with the TL-S, so I'll shut up.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    While I don't necessarily agree that the (current) MDX is Acura's flagship, I've always thought the Pilot is a rebadged MDX, not the other way around.

    And I've come to the conclusion that the main reason the RL does not sell well is a self-inflicted malady -- the presence of the TL. It is simply difficult to rationalize the $25K + taxes (in Canadian $$) difference between the two for someone walking into an Acura showroom. But if I were a luxury car buyer, and comparing across brands, the RL would be an attractive option compared to the forgetable Infiniti Q, and desireable but expensive $100K+ (again in Canadian $$) Lexus LS, especially in view of the Canadian weather-friendly SH-AWD in the RL.
  • scottm123scottm123 Posts: 1,501
    I vote we move the RL argument to the RL forum and get this back on the TL Type-S track. ;)
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    On that note, gave a pretty good review for the TL-S; all except for the FWD platform. The author of the article states that Honda believes 40% of the projected sales for this year (TL's) will be Type-S models. You guys think it will sell that well?
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    After the first few months, once any hype fades, dealers will be selling well below MSRP. With that in mind, yes, I think 25-30% is doable.
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