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Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

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  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,786
    " It will be interesting to see if states like CA force them to 10 years or 150k miles on the battery, as they did with the hybrids. According to their website it is 3yr 36k mile bumper to bumper."

    They won't sell it in CARB states if that is the requirement. The technology just isn't there for LiIon batteries to last anywhere near that long.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    They won't sell it in CARB states if that is the requirement.

    That may have been a sticking point with the EV-1 in CA. The way I read the law on AT-PZEV is the car must maintain that level of emissions for 10 years or 150k miles. With an EV it becomes less of an emissions and more of it just won't go issue. So maybe they will let the buyer beware. It would be good to have some assurance that you will not have to replace $20,000 worth of batteries every 3 years.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    to get 240v you use two spaces on your 120v breaker box. So for 480 you would use four.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Posts: 509
    Well, they do sound like vacuum cleaners. ;)

    "Dyson (yes, that Dyson) could be looking to play a role in the next great electric automobile. Just let your brain simmer on that a moment, and see if you can stifle any forthcoming laughter. Believe it or not, the British inventor famous for his iconic vacuum designs is actually developing a "powerful lightweight motor that could enable electric cars to zoom along for hundreds of miles without causing pollution." In theory, the eventual vehicle would scoot about much quicker than the majority of sluggish electric vehicles and solar panels would be tacked on the roof for regeneration in sunlight."

    http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/25/dyson-looking-to-motor-into-the-electric-car-- arena/
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    500 electric Minis coming to California

    Posted Jul 9th 2008 at 12:39PM by Jeremy Korzeniewski

    Although there may be a very small number of BMW's Mini on American roads that have already been converted by individuals or aftermarket folks to run on electricity, now the factory is going to get in the game itself. Five-hundred Minis will come off the line in Oxford, England sans drivetrain. The powerless shells will be sent to Germany painted silver with contrasting yellow roofs... what, no green motif? Workers in Munich will convert the vehicles into battery electrics, and the cars will then be shipped to California where they will be offered for sale. Unofficially, that is, as BMW has yet to confirm these plans, though that just seems like a formality at this point. Therefore, we don't have any specifications or pricing information to share just yet.

    BMW could be making more electric vehicle plans as we speak, as the German automakers claims it is considering a line of zero emissions vehicles. What's more, rumblings have been heard of an Isetta revival as well, and those rumors also indicate a possible electric version of the smart competitor.


    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/09/500-electric-minis-coming-to-california/-
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I saw another article on cnnfn.com today stating the same thing in regards to BMW's desire to bring a Mini EV to the market in 2009. It's hard to ignore that there is currently an unprecedented movement amongst the auto manufacturers to produce EVs. Even if you aren't an EV advocate it will be interesting to see what these efforts produce.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    I would like an EV for running errands. Never having to go to a gas station would be great. Just plug that puppy in. That said my practical side always gets involved in my decisions. I do not do things to be green or blue or any other color. I spend money on something I like or need with my personal pleasure and comfort first and foremost. Well actually my wife's comfort. When they start tossing out numbers like $38k and up I start to lose interest real fast. I would have NEVER bought this Sequoia if it was not $5000 under invoice. I just do not waste my cash to be an early adopter.

    Now that Mini EV may be an exception for me. Probably not though.
  • Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You can get 240 volts because you have two 120 volt legs that are 120 volts relative to neutral (which is usually at ground potential) and 180 degrees out of phase with each other.

    You've only got those two legs; using more slots on the breaker box won't give you any more voltage. You'll need a step-up transformer or an electronic voltage multiplier to get voltages higher than 240 volts. Transformers at that power level are going to be heavy, bulky, and expensive, and a voltage multiplier with that current level would require some pretty hefty capacitors.

    Other methods are possible such as chopping into high frequency AC, say 40 Khz or something, and then using a transformer operating at that higher frequency. The higher the frequency, the less copper is required, but then you start getting higher hysteresis losses in the core so it's a trade-off.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    Now that we've gone up to $4 gas and back down towards $2, how does the arguement for/against electric vehicles change, if at all?

    (Besides, we've been focused on non-automotive stuff for far too long and we need to get back to talking about the automotive future! :shades: )

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  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    Well, I think that EV proponents may tend to gloss over the infrastructure changes needed if we all of a sudden found most of our fleet being comprised of EV's

    Not that it can't be done, but it's not going to be like flipping a switch! (pun intended)

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  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,713
    I don't think that it will appear as important right now.

    If we are smart we will continue pushing for them because gas will go up again. Better to get a head start on the solution than to be caught with our pants down.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    A reporter would like to speak with consumers who are considering BMW’s electric Mini Cooper lease. If you are interested in this vehicle or currently drive an electric car, please respond to jwahl@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Monday, November 17th.


    Thanks,
    Jonathan Wahl
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds Inc.

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    A reporter would like to speak with consumers who are considering BMW’s electric Mini Cooper lease. If you are interested in this vehicle or currently drive an electric car, please respond to jwahl@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Monday, November 17th.


    Thanks,
    Jonathan Wahl
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds Inc.

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  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    If we're counting on us being collectively smart, I'm not sure if I'm worried or not :shades:

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  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,713
    Collectively we are neither smart nor stupid as either side cancels out the other. EV development will continue as there will be people who are worried that $4 gas will be back and to stay in the not to distant future. But it won't be developed as fast if gas stays under $3.

    My bigger concern is if the current political structure is going to make it far more difficult to generate the electricity in a cost efficient manner to power a large fleet of EV's. The incoming administration has made some comments that would make it nearly impossible to create more electric power plants.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    No new Coal, No Nuclear. Wind is ok, just not in my back yard. Solar not much good for charging vehicles overnight. I think we will have to wait for a little less restrictive government for the EVs to take hold. I do think the $7500 tax credit tossed into the bailout bill will encourage some foreign companies to try and sell what they have to US.

    PS
    Collectively I would say we are dumber than a box of rocks, given the results of the last election.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,713
    Wind is ok, just not in my back yard.

    We have wind farms going up all over Northern IL.

    Solar not much good for charging vehicles overnight.

    I would think that it would be a great ideal to have some sort of solar system that would charge some sort of battery or capacitor system that you plug your EV into at night that will power up your car at night.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • Solar not much good for charging vehicles overnight.

    Excess solar captured during the day could be sold to the utilities to reduce daytime peak need and then purchased back when needed at night to charge up our EV's. I would think that this would greatly help in reducing our need for further central generation capacity.

    The only time that local power storage would be needed would be as a back up in case of a utility outage.
  • The only thing wrong with Nuclear is the cost. It's cheaper to use Coal and the current solar technology for a power plant is more like a furnace where the solar radiation is used to heat a massive boiler where the heat is used to generate electricity. That would keep creating electricity until it cooled down, long after dark and much cheaper per MW than PV panels.

    PS Collectively the population is finally starting to wise up considering the last election.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    current solar technology for a power plant is more like a furnace where the solar radiation is used to heat a massive boiler where the heat is used to generate electricity.

    The only thing I can find on that technology is the Curnutt Solar Furnace. I do not see any practical application of that 30+ year old technology. It was given lots of press in 1978 and nothing came of it. I am sure if it was practical someone like SDG&E would be on it. The electric companies are mandated to have a certain percentage of alternative energy by 2012. They run into environmental roadblocks with everything they do. The only viable alternative currently working is wind generation provided by one of the Indian tribes. They are not bogged down with state and Federal regulations. SDG&E signed an agreement for a solar generator in 2005. To be completed in 2008. It is still being held up by environmentalist. Not the current Republican administration. I think we voted ourselves into a deeper bog of environmental regulations. No two green weanies agree on anything. Here is just one of many eco roadblocks to alternative energy.

    Many environmentalists who oppose Sunrise are also sharply critical of Stirling's solar energy project. They argue that Stirling's technology is commercially unproven and say the project will take years longer to build and cost four or five times more than Stirling has estimated.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080701-9999-1b1solar.html

    I would say collectively the population has their head where the sun don't shine. :shades:
    So much for solar energy.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    We demand "clean" energy and then throw up "environmental" road block after road block. Can't have wind farms... some bird might get killed.

    At some point perhaps humans get back to the list top of species we need to ensure the survival of.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    The latest on the solar project is a 2 year environmental impact study for the BLM. That does let the contractor off the hook on the 2010 date of completion. Mean time the clock is ticking on the CA mandate for renewable energy.

    My favorite is in Hawaii where they have blocked further geo-thermal because it is an affront to Pele.

    Pele is a living deity fundamental to Hawaiian spiritual belief. She is the eruption, with its heat, lava and steam. Her family takes the form of forest plants, animals and other natural forces. But geothermal development interests see Pele as simply a source of electricity.

    http://www.namaka.com/catalog/spirit/pele.html

    So if it ain't Ted Kennedy keeping the Wind farms from blocking his view it is some other group wanting to stop US from drilling for oil. I do not think there is any form of alternative energy that is universally acceptable.
  • I recently purchased a plug-in 2007 Kurrent. I realize the American Electric Vehicle Co is out of business, but I am in desperate need of a key blank (or two). Can someone tell me how I can get the key blanks? My locksmith can't find it. Thanks.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    Ford Motor made electric vehicles a centerpiece of a turnaround plan presented to Congress on Tuesday, saying that it will introduce an all-electric van for fleet use in 2010 and a sedan in 2011.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10111091-54.html

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    This guy is having fun with his home built Datsun EV. Running the quarter in 11 seconds is not too shabby. Not sure the Tesla would beat him.

    http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    What is more interesting to me is the Smart ED (EV) being charged. Why don't we have those in the USA? We did not get the Smart diesel capable of 70+ MPG. Now other countries have the Smart electric powered by sodium-nickel chloride Zebra batteries. I don't think the US or state governments want what they say they want. Less use of fossil fuel. I don't like the meter idea either. I would not be taking off cross country in a vehicle with a 62 mile range. Drive for an hour charge for 8 hours.

    No thanks, I will charge my EV overnight in my driveway. Don't hold your breath on seeing any for a good long while. The EPA and CARB and the Tax collectors will all have a say on when they are sold in the USA.

    There are at least 10 EVs built world wide capable of highway speeds. NONE are allowed in the USA, except the $100k Tesla. Political talk is cheap. Politicians are not cheap.
  • akjbmwakjbmw Posts: 231
    Perhaps part of the problems the Phoenix has had is that they don't address the power options. As I recall, it was quite a while ago in response to my specific question, that the "show and tell" folks said that there was an "adaptor" that would allow using home power to recharge, it just took proportionately longer.

    The ride was "sporty" in nature. I guessed in response to the heavier battery load on the suspension. My old bones like a softer ride. My '98 K1500 rode smoother. Perhaps a different spring-rate.

    Still, a lot of dollars for the privilege to embarrass the hot-rodders like my '62 Comet with a 351 stuffed in it. That was a different time and a different topic...
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary said, "I think the CEO of PG&E is better qualified to answer the questions on load. You have a lot of pie in the sky optimism about alternative energy. It is not making much headway in the market place. Not everyone is going to be satisfied with an 8 hour charge time. Many of the PHEV kits for the Prius are 220 Volt. The bragging points many have made including yourself is quick charging in as little as 10 minutes. The shorter the time the bigger the load. Charging a 16KWH battery in 3 hours equal to running about 3 large AC units at the same time. More than the average house uses at any given time. It would triple my electric bill. As you know we do not get the illusive NIGHT RATES in San Diego. EVs are not going to be practical in my area unless a person installs a large solar array and charges during the day. $40K for the EV econobox and $30k for the solar array. That is about 30 years driving a Diesel SUV for me. I don't expect to be around that long."

    On your point: "I think the CEO of PG&E is better qualified to answer the questions on load."

    I don't assume that at all. I have driven an electric car, and I drive a GEM car almost daily in my job. I follow electric car news and technology almost daily. I'm sure his job keeps him occupied with other issues. I'd take him on in a "who knows the most" debate ANY DAY.

    On your point: "Not everyone is going to be satisfied with an 8 hour charge time."

    That's correct - but you can't please all the people all the time. If you want an electric car, and you can only fit into your budget the one which only uses 110V for charging and takes 8 hours, then you will settle for that car. Like any gasoline car decision - the car that meets your needs and your budget is what you will buy.

    On your point: "Many of the PHEV kits for the Prius are 220 Volt."

    True, but the technology that Toyota uses for their first USA-available PHEV will be far superior to those add-on kits.

    On your point: "The bragging points many have made including yourself is quick charging in as little as 10 minutes. The shorter the time the bigger the load. Charging a 16KWH battery in 3 hours equal to running about 3 large AC units at the same time."

    Quick charging will be an OPTIONAL component on SOME of the cars. Probably a costly one. The owners who use it will be willing to pay for the cost to get the convenience. Like anything else in our economy, convenience will cost more. Nothing wrong with that. You want more functionality and faster charging? Pony up the Greenbacks, Amigo.

    On your point: "EVs are not going to be practical in my area unless a person installs a large solar array and charges during the day."

    You meant to say: "People who want fast charging and who want to charge during the day in the San Diego area are going to have to pay more for their electricity" and that's true. That does not make it "impractical" it just makes it "more costly." Like I stated before, most "early adopters" have the cash to fork out on this technology, just like the early adopters of Hybrid cars were people with more "disposable income" than the average Joe.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    The only thing I can say is a fool and their money is soon parted. Unless a vehicle fits my needs and is practical I will either not buy it or get rid of it very quickly while it still has some value. As much as I hate the poor mileage I get with the Sequoia, it is not practical to replace it until I find a diesel replacement vehicle I really like.

    As much as I would like to go EV, I don't see it as practical in my lifetime. They will have to come up with better storage than Li-ioN batteries that are currently being tested. And I think you are wishful in your thinking on the PHEV Prius from Toyota. That could still be a decade off for the consumer. It depends on the trials with fleet owners. Notice how the Honda FCX has just fizzled out. I think they placed 5 units of the 100 or more they promised. Hydrogen is still many decades away if ever.
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