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Hyundai wants Jaguar. Good idea?

124

Comments

  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    You know, I don't know if they will do it. I am afraid that instead of just thinking that Ford's model didnt work, that they will think Jaguar's styling is not a spot on competitior for the Germans, and they will shift it. That is the step Ford never took.

    The other thing I didn't mention, as I actually forgot as I went through my post, is that some of the decisions may not be in the hands of the company. Asian coutries tend to have a fairly large involvment with "Pride Industries" if you will. The Japanese and South Korean governments are heavily involved with Toyota and Hyundai respectively. These companies basically receive their marching orders from the government. On a political level the environment snaps back to that Japan / Korea rivalry thing.

    All of this is a sort of cursory speculative analysis on my part, but it really does represent something I don't desire to happen.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,803
    Bottom line is: It is damn hard to pull a dying make of car out of the fire...it's rarely been done successfully. Look at how much $$$ GM has put into Cadillac, (incredible sums, reallly) and that marque wasn't dead, more like "moribund". Who would spend that kind of cash on Jaguar?

    MODERATOR

  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    I really don't consider Jaguar to be "dying", sales volume now must be greater than before Ford bought them. I know sales volumes are down lately but in a structural sense yearly sales is a superfluous measure. The problem lays in Ford attempting to turn Jaguar into something which it really has no capacity to be- it really cannot be a German car. Had no structural changes been made to the brand, then perhaps I would agree. Ford needs to live with the fact that Jaguar really cannot be a mass market brand. Ford has put lots of money into Jag, but to the wrong end- so they habitually lose money.

    Ford has failed to realize that the demographic of people who drive them is not like German cars either. My experience with Jag drivers is that A) they have dynastic wealth b) they are rather sophisticated, not just educated, but the type of people who can tell you that the highest note in "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" otherwise known as the Aria of the Queen of the Night from the Magic Flute is an F6 (that being the F in the sixth octave)
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,617
    I'm not sure about that "dynastic wealth" business. In the USA most "old money" people drive understated vehicles like Volvos or even
    domestics. After all Ted Kennedy drove an Olds off that bridge. ;)

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,617

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,803
    I agree. You can buy a new Jaguar on a credit card anyway....aside from a Ferrari or Bentley or maybe a fully decked out S class Benz, a dental hygienist can finance just about any car.

    It's all very ironic for Jaguar because originally the car was conceived as a value automobile for the middle class in England. It was, if anything, a protest against ostentation and the absurd MSRP of cars like Rolls and Bentley.

    I'm sorry the company lost its way. Former Lemans winners and makers of REAL sports cars, now the company flounders about not knowing what it is and what it is supposed to be doing. I owned many Jaguars when I was younger and I can still remember my disgust when the XJ6 came out and the E-Type went away. I realize the XJ6 did save the company but as far as I'm concerned it turned out to be a bargain with the devil for the company.

    MODERATOR

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    Don't people need dynastic wealth to keep old Jags going? The maintenance and repairs on a XJS V12 has to exceed a Ferrari.

    But yeah, Jag is bourgeois even at its highest levels, not a car for the uber-rich.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,803
    Maybe Jaguar should just go back to its old formula....produce only 3 models....one a Panoz-like sports car (serious sports car), one a BMW-like 3 series sedan, and then the limited production obligatory big blivet-car to boost their prestige. This line-up served them well from the 40s through 1974 or so.

    MODERATOR

  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    I agree with the understated comment, with the caveat that a lot of the people whom I know Don't drive their Jags all of the time. (incedientally my first car was a Volvo- couldn't kill that car for all my life) But Jags are understated. There are lots of old women whom drive their Jags to Denver Country Club on the weekend- some of them have last names which should be vaguely familiar. And sometimes these people have their Rolls-Royces- which are never driven. For them Jags are an understatment. My grandparent's Jag is driven (not regularly) but in leiu of a much nicer car which they own.

    As far as the Kennedy's, we must have very different standards of "dynastic wealth"- people whom keep their names out fo the papers (the ultimate understatement) and have had money for a lot longer- and didn't aquire it illegally either. I have many friends (older than myself) who fit nicely into that category, are rather unassuming, and still make the Hilton's look like paupers. The other thing I notice, is that a large number of them drive SUVs on a regular basis, Yukons and the like.

    As far as Jag being started as a "middle class" car company that comment has no merrit. Why not go back to the beginning? Jaguar should not exist, as it was originally a side-car company before its name was changed. It is illogical, saying that things began one way is no guarantee of a similar end. Time is the guarantor of change- and their is no logical method to differentiate time- by virtue of the fact that time is on a continuum.

    Middle class...you know the Queen of England is driven around in, depending, either a Daimler (manufactured by Jag- same thing as the Super V8) or the production armoured Jag (a $400,000 car)- that is actually the most expensive Jag, BTW- it is the world's only production armored vehicle. Of course, there are national interests involved with that. Be that as it may, I really don't see how a car company that manufactured $625,000 supercars (XJ 220) can be middle class- this was even under Ford. Lately though, Jag has been cheaper which I don't like.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,803
    Well Jaguar did very well indeed as a middle class car, for 40+ years, before it became pretentious and forgot its origins I think. It's been middle class for as long as it has tried to be high class in other words.

    I never thought of the Jaguar as unassuming, but rather too-assuming. The car tries too hard to be upper class when everyone knows that its just nouveau riche....not the same thing IMO....you can buy the BMW 325i for the same effect seems to me, and you get a lot better car for your $$$. Old money doesn't buy things that depreciate like rocks off a bridge in other words.

    MODERATOR

  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    Oh please. I will say that it must depend upon the situation. Exactly how many affluent people do you know...I'm talking in the range of net worth 250 million plus? I know quite a few. You have no reason to believe me, but I don't care. Let me give you an example..although their money is not as old as some, but they have had it for about 100 years. The Coors': when Pete Coors was pulled over for not stopping at a stop sign, he was driving their Jag with his wife Marilyn (who needs to change her hair). You don't have to believe me, but their son Scott, who I dated briefly is a homosexual (obviously: the fact that he is gay is not news), and is now dating a very nice dermatologist, Scott has an Audi A8L, an Land Rover LR3, and Mercedes SL (with a CU Boulder License plate), a Jaguar XK...I think that is it (EDIT: I forgot the most obvious of all the Ferrari Enzo). Paul, I won't say his last name, lives on the 13th green of Cherry Hills Golf Course, about a year ago he attended Stuart Marcus' (of the Neiman Marcus family) Funeral in Texas. He has a Cadillas Escalade and a oh...1992 or so XJS. Then their is Mike, probably the oldes moneyed person I know (Centuries of money), his mothers maiden name starts with an R and is a VERY respected German family. He has funnily enough, A new BMW M3 (just ordered: he couldn't wait until 2008 for the redesign), Jaguar Vandes Plas, and an old oh...60 somthing Rolls has been in his family for a long time, which he never drives it is actually the one in which he was driven to school in everyday when he was young in Michigan.

    As for my Jag- it was a Christas present from my parents years ago. They actually bought their after they bought me mine.

    Cars really are of the things that have a miniscule upper limit, the demographic for a Rolls Buyer is someone whose net worth is only 30 million- that is rather minscule in the grand scheme of things.

    I have heard it said that the way in which some people shead the fetters of a commoner when they get money is by buying English cars, I believe this is primarily due to the conservative nature of the English and the fact they they have maintained at least in name their class system. The point is however, that conceptions of such things are rarely without some basis. I know plenty of people who are the very definition of old money who have jags, the above was a mere sampling.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    Disguised name dropping...always amusing. Those in the know don't blab...and Colorado money might not be representative.

    I am sure plenty of overly rich people with both legitimate and illegitimate fortunes (inheritance, old robber barons, etc) own Chevies and VWs too...not worth so much. Jag's primary buyer has likely never been anything more than the buyer of the average MB or BMW. That's the key here, the main demographic. I bet the average Jag buyer is worth a fraction of 30M....
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    ROTFLMAO !!! :D

    Rocky
  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    Its rather undisguised I would say. But otherwise we would sit here and argue until the end of time about something with is rather superfluous. In any event I really haven't said anything which difficult to find out. I am sure you can look in the news to when good old Pete was cited with drunk driving and find some web source which says it was a jag. Mike in particular I have known for a long time, and would never betray his trust.

    As far as the very wealthy, they display a broad range of tastes. People have varied tastes wealthy or not. There are billionaires that drive Lexus LS'. Jags demographic for the XJ is only slightly wealthier than the S class MB buyer (its actually statistically insignificant IMO) if I recall 257 for the MB and 264 for the XJ per annum. Although that may have changed given the new S is now a more expensive car to start.

    The only people in that list who have "colorado money" are the Coors family. Neither Paul nor Mike are from here in fact Mike now lives in Seattle. The point of all of this is the generalization that Jaguars are the tools of the newly endowed, this is obviously not my experience.

    As far as 30 M: I have never pretended or been under the illusion that a Jag is a Rolls Royce, nor shares the demographic. It Shares certain general traits with a Rolls, by virtue of being English, but that is about it.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    If it is such common knowledge, why hint and pose and drop part of a name but not all? Yes, a moot point...not really relevant. A simple "I know some very well-to-do people who own Jags" is a lot less pretentious and less likely to draw ire. Status seeking doesn't work very well online. If you don't want to betray trust, don't mention such details at all online...anonymity is never certain.

    The crux of all this is that Jag buyers have no more "dynastic wealth" than those of other luxocar brands, personal anecdotes aside. It's always been an upper middle class brand, even with the XJ and modern cars, not just 50 years ago. Jaguar won't succeed trying to play with the S-class and 7ers not to mention the newer cheaper Bentleys, no matter that some people own both cars. The X-Type was an error I agree...but the XJ will be as high as they can go on the sedan front. I'll wager an awful lot of money the market won't accept anything higher, and if they go this route they'll have the equivalent of a VW Phaeton with a leaping cat on it.

    Heck, I believe Bill Gates has an old style Lexus SC...yet his wealth could buy and sell all that previously mentioned money while he sleeps. Nobody said Jags are "tools of the newly endowed" (wow, that statement just screams trust-fundie with an entitlement mentality), just that 95%+ of their sales never went to the uber-rich. Personally, I see nothing wrong with that at all.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,803
    Rich people? Yeah, I know lots of rich people...250 million is like one poker chip in some parts of Aspen...

    Jaguar strikes me as about Lexus level in prestige, no more than that...except that a Lexus doesn't lose 50% of MSRP in three years.

    Not that I wouldn't take one if you gave it to me, mind you....

    MODERATOR

  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    ...and perhaps a little pissed with myself for letting myself say what I did

    If it is such common knowledge, why hint and pose and drop part of a name but not all?

    I did. My response was simply because I was accosted on the matter. I already said that my experience was several posts ago.

    As for the rest I can only laugh. I mentioned only first names with those whose trust I don't desire to betray. I can honestly say, that I have absolutely no fear of anyone here finding out who they are. I am not told everything, and I don't tell everything about them or myself.

    Nobody said Jags are "tools of the newly endowed"

    It was said: "Nouveau riche" (newly rich in french) means the same. It is a generalization: I.E. an illogical conclusion. I hope that I have not insinuated that Jag is for the uber wealthy either: what I have said is to address the fact that those with very old money are perhaps just as prone to drive them as those without.
  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    parts of Aspen? ..I would say most of Aspen...minus the trailer parks and condos full of workers.

    As one who knows the wealthy so well and colorado none the less, which billionaire is it who drives his Lexus LS around? I am sure you could even guess it.
  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    You know what? I'll give you an out, I don't care to know. This is by far the dumbest conversation I have ever had...

    Why should I, of all people, have to consider defending myself against such people. The problem with the internet is that you cannot choose..
  • I think a lot of consumers are in a similar position.

    They like Jaguar but there isn't a Jag sitting in their driveway.

    I really like the XJ and the new XK but where, oh where has the XKE gone!?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    Keep laughing...I'm laughing too. This site is for news and amusements. You know the wealthy well and have obviously been given a lot, so I am sure you know how to have a good time.

    All high status cars are mostly sought by the nouveau riche....simply because there are more of them than the significantly wealthy, and it's more of their MO. Some Jags like the old XJS really seem to have had that appeal when new, in my eyes. It's not some kind of an insult, being nouveau riche isn't exactly a bad place to be. There's really no car so expensive as to be exclusive to those of significant (let's say healthy nine figures plus) wealth....well maybe a Bugatti Royale.

    I'm not being down on Jag...I like some of their cars, esp some prior models, as I am old before my time. Give me a 3.8 or an XKE, although I wouldn't turn down a new XK or XJ.
  • cdokecdoke Posts: 14
    Your message lets me know that I probably should have kept my mouth shut..too late now.

    I agree with you about status cars and the nouveau riche, there is a sort of insecurity there and I have seen it. I had a neighbor until recently who obviously had acheived a windfall monetary sum (at least that is what I think), as he moved in and purchased 3 brand new cars (all of which were white): a Land Rover, a new (meaning redesigned) S-Class and a Bentley Continental. He didn't live there for more than 6 months, and I never spoke to him.

    Nice car by the way. I am sure you don't need me to tell you that that.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,617
    that Jaguar should build a real sports car and a top notch small sports sedan but cars like the XJ6 have been a part of Jaguar since the glory days of the 50's. Surely you haven't forgotten the bloated, pretentious Mk. VII/VIII/IX/X series.

    The original XJ6 was the successor to the Mk.X and a pretty good improvement at that.

    Us old timers have to realize that neither Jag nor anyone else will ever build a car that is as good-looking and sweet to drive as an E-Type or a Mk. 2 sedan...er..saloon. ;)

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    Funny, most of the old-monied people I know of drive older S-Classes and Cadillacs. They don't blow their money on depreciating assets like new cars. Hey, that sounds like us!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    I'm not rich (nor nouveau riche), but somehow I'm just not tempted to buy new. I guess that's another reason why all status cars including Jag have long attracted new money...I guess when you hit a certain level to have to spend to prove yourself. Insecurity as cdoke mentioned.

    I only personally know of three families who have sizeable means, and it isn't as big as nine figures. One has 2 late 90s Lexus LS and a ca. 1990 E-class. The other has a Chevy truck, an even older E-class, and whole bunch of old cars the husband of the family tinkers with. And the third has a small fleet of pretty normal cars, the priciest being another LS. Of course, these aren't really old money either, not more than a generation. Around here, I do see a Jag now and then parked at a very nice (maybe 3M+) house (an XJR comes to mind as those are seldom seen anyway), but lots and lots of plain cars too, Honda Odysseys being popular.. There are nicer cars in the garage of my apartment building than at many of these big houses. That might say something. I also do spot a few rich old widow-looking types driving older S-class.

    A white W221, a white Bentley and a white Rover...oh the humanity. More proof that taste and wealth can be mutually exclusive!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,803
    Anyone see the recent Jaguar documentary on the show "Automobiles"?

    I know it will sound self-serving, and I don't mean it to, but the show was partially narrated by the official historian for Jaguar....and I'll be darned if he didn't emphasis that Jaguar's popularity after WW II was based mainly on the fact that "the XK120 was as fast or faster than very exotic cars selling for more than twice the price".

    Which is true. It was an absolute bargain for the time.

    And again, when the historian discussed the new E-Type in 1961, that the most sensational thing about the car was that "you could go 150 mph for about 2,000 English pounds"....so in essence, the fastest production car in the world cost you less than 1/2 the price of the nearest exotic competitors.

    He then discussed how the V-12 E-Type was somewhat defeated by emissions regulations...it had more power but lost it to weight and emissions, and the E-Type "lost its purity".

    I had the sense that 1948--1974 was, to the historian anyway, the Glory Days of Jaguar..when it was something unique and full of value, excitement and prestige (what with the Lemans wins and the fact that the E-type was, and still is I believe, the only car to sit in the Metropolitan Museum of Art as a permanent part of the collection.

    Probably, to get a sense of what that means, we moderns would have to think of Ferrari and how that car captures people's imaginations....Jaguar used to do that very same thing, hard as it might be to believe looking at today's Jaguars.

    Anyway, if the program comes up again, be sure to watch. It had some great footage of the factory fire in the late 50s (ouch!).

    MODERATOR

  • by Jerry Flint in the current issue of Forbes about the PAG and the future of Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin.

    He estimates Ford has $10B invested in Jaguar so far and $5B tied up in Land Rover - big money by any standard. The only PAG company that has been a success is Aston Martin, going from 42 sales per year in 1992 to 4,400 in 2005.

    Flint suggests Ford take advice from Ulrich Bez of Aston Martin on what to do with Jaguar and Land Rover. Bez is already at Ford and has a good track record at Aston Martin.

    http://www.forbes.com/business/2006/08/10/ford-jaguar-land-rover-cz_jf_0810flint- - .html
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Very interesting conversation going on here to say the least!

    M
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Well, there's two ways for it to go, if huyndai buys jag:

    1) Huyndai gives jaguar its platforms and has it build jags from it.

    2) Hyundai gives jag money to build its cars. Even if jag loses money, hyundai gains prestige, and hand-me-down technology.

    1=bad 2=god
  • in the game any more (can we change the title?) but it sounds like Ford still has Jaguar up for sale.

    Right now JCB, a British company that makes construction equipment, is rumored to be considering Jaguar.

    I wonder if Ford will consider letting Ulrich Bez of Aston Martin try to turn Jaguar around.

    On edit: that idea looks dead! Ulrich Bez wants to buy Aston Martin now that Ford has officially said it is for sale. He is engineering an employee buyout and will be a major shareholder. See following link (3rd item down w/two green arrows).

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml
This discussion has been closed.