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Comments
That's just it though, where's the space? The Town Car is an absolutely enormous 221" long, and yet it has no more room inside or in the trunk than the half as expensive, two foot shorter 500\Taurus. The Vic\GM twins are much worse, there's barely any more rear legroom than an average midsize sedan. When the TC is finally put down like Old Yeller, I'm sure Chrysler will step in with a LWB 300 for the fleets if Lincoln doesn't have a replacement.
Here's the link... link title... and here's a quote from the very last sentence in the article:
Mercedes is also rumored to unveil a new Bluetec-diesel concept that’ll feature a mild-hybrid system and is said to be a preview of a production model that’s expected to hit the market by the end of the decade.
TagMan
The difference there though is enough time has passed for people to forget just how bad the old Rabbits were. The old Taurus on the other hand only died two years ago, and when most people think "Taurus" I doubt they're feeling any nostalgia.
Actually, a long wheelbase 300 has already been announced!
TagMan
Not that you had any doubts.
Don't hate the player, Tag. Costs of doing business, for a profit. It pays to buy the best.
Just ask Edmunds.
DrFill
And... that sneaky price drop is actually a big increase, considering that so much desireable and expensive equipment has been deleted. Nasty move, Toyota.
Where's that price drop of the hybrid premium that mass production is supposed to bring? Instead, there's a big increase!! :confuse:
TagMan
Business must be mighty fine for Camry Hybrids. Toyota's end will have to wait another year, at least.
You can still get JBL sound as an option.
Maybe an investment in VSC would be better? :confuse:
DrFill
TM
The Taurus plays to my point on price/space so if you want to position it against the Town Car that's fine. Now put the Town Car AND Taurus against the likes of the LS 460L and S550 and you come up with MORE space or comparable space for a LOT less money. That's my point. That's why a lot of people buy these cars... price per cu. ft. and in. of legroom and headroom. The only place where the TC falls a little short is rear headroom but beats them handily in other significant dimensions.
DrFill
Actually, a long wheelbase 300 has been on sale since '07, although you have to ordered, not off the shelf.
A Hybrid Bluetec diesel MB does excite me already while it will take me a long while to get used to the idea of a hybrid Porsche. IMO a hybrid Porsche sounds just a bit more alluring than a stripped hybrid Toyota Camry with steel tires. Eeeeech!
I am not a spinner. I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I am just a Canuck who likes the facts.
The fact is Toyota is not making enough profit on the current hybrid Camry so they're going to strip it. It's just as plain and simple as that. Apparently Toyota's relentless pursuit in cutting production costs on the hyrbrid Camry is not going as planned.
The fact is Toyota's innovative abilitities have hit a brick wall. We were promised by Toyota that hybrids will radically improve. My question is what improvements are there if any? The spanking new generation Highlander is going to be powered by the same fuel inefficient hybrid system as the old one. THat sounds more stale than radical to me.
The fact is Toyota's PR about future lithium ion batteries have turned out to be mere pie in the sky than anything else. The pace of Toyota's HSD developments looks snail-like when compared to the radical improvements German carmarkers have recently done with diesels.
Feel free to look up the Highlanders real world economy, from owners, not just EPA. If you can find a 4300 lb, 270HP, 7 passenger SUV that can get within 5 MPG, please, let me know. Show me the "inefficiency", please.
Now you add an EV mode to the new truck, and Edmunds tested it and said economy rises another MPG.
Toyota put out Camry Hybrids to raise overall Hybrid volume. Period.
Removing JBL and alloy wheels is no deal-breaker. More than 60% of Camrys are sold as 4-cylinders without alloy wheels.
While everyone else raises prices of their family sedans, they will lower the price, matching the price of a 4-cylinder XLE. Could you use an extra 10MPG, for the same cost?
Toyota is selling 5k Camry Hybrids a month, and that will rise.
Please show where you were promised something that was not delivered. :confuse:
If those are your "facts", you might want to apply for Colin Powell's job, and show us the real "Weapons of Mass Destruction" already. Find me a Whiffle Ball bat, or somethin'. :sick:
DrFill
Feel free to look up the real world numbers for the diesels, and particularly the recent Mercedes diesel reviews, and see what they got, and you'll notice they're generally better then the EPA.
For example, the E320 BlueTec is new-system rated 26 and has an average real-life average of near 32!... even better than the old rating!!
2007 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec
Feel free, Doc, to help yourself. :shades:
TagMan
16 HL Hybrids have been evaluated, and are getting 25MPG, with 60 more HP than the gas version.
DrFill
DrFill
The Bluetec carries a preliminary EPA rating of 26/37 city/hwy mpg, which beats out the E350's 19/26 by a huge margin and even out-economizes hybrids like the Lexus GS 450h. Base price for the Bluetec is $52,325 with destination, which is only $1,000 more than a similarly equipped E350. Factor in the Bluetec's fuel savings and this premium will be offset in about two and a half years at today's (low) fuel prices. Not bad, and when fuel prices climb, the investment pays off sooner. Sorry, wagon lovers — the 2007 E320 Bluetec will only be available in sedan guise, and 4Matic all-wheel drive will not be offered.
The comparison of the gasoline E350 to the diesel Bluetec draws similar parallels among hybrids, but with a startlingly different outcome. For example, the $55,615 hybrid Lexus GS 450h is rated at 25/28 city/hwy mpg. It shares its V6 engine with the $44,865 GS 350, rated at 21/29 mpg. Adjusted for differences in standard equipment, the hybrid commands a premium of $8,565 over the GS 350. But since the hybrid only saves $150 per year in fuel costs, it will take 57 years to recoup the purchase price difference. Use real-world fuel economy numbers, and a solely economic argument for opting for the hybrid gets even feebler.
link title
You can always choose the source that agrees with you, can't you Doc?
TagMan
TM
I've been saying that since the GS450h was first announced. Its an absolutely pointless car. The measly 37hp that your $8,565 gets you over the GS350 is completely offset by the 400lb. weight gain, as is any significant increase in fuel economy. Big heavy luxury sedans just make for bad hybrids. I don't think that's going to change any time soon.
(I hate politics; can you tell?)
It's not about that. It's a matter of philosophy.
You forgot to mention that the BlueTecs don't perform as well as the gas versions of the ML or E-Class.
The Camry Hybrid and Highlander outperform their gas counterparts, plus add equipment and economy. The entire vehicle gets an upgrade! :shades:
The Lexus GS450h adds gives a V6 powerplant more power than the V8, while getting you low-to-mid 20's economy. It is faster than the GS430, and more efficient.
The new GS350 nullifies a lot of this inherent advantage, doh.
In 5 years, there probably will be 8-10 diesels in cars and SUVs, and they will save gas. And that's great. I'm all for it.
Hybrids have proven their value to Americans. Now it's diesel's turn.
If Lexus is gonna make 300Hp V6s that offer V8 performance, maybe a declawed version with 30% better gas is the way to go.
Americans can be confusing to sell to. Mercedes is just throwing power at the market, with Turbo-charged V12s. Is that the way to go? People buy horsepower. That's how the saying goes, right?
Do luxury car buyers want to lose 50HP to gain 10MPG? Maybe Mercedes can test this theory for Lexus. Could save them a ton in R&D.
DrFill
DrFill
BMW has been splitting body and drive train updates to different model years for nearly two decades now. Has their "innovative abilities hit a brick wall"? It's a measure of reducing the chance of first-model year glitches.
The pace of Toyota's HSD developments looks snail-like when compared to the radical improvements German carmarkers have recently done with diesels.
Toyota and Honda offer the cleanest diesels in Europe. I haev no idea how quickly snails do R&D, but whatever it is, if it is faster than Toyota, it's certainly faster than the German carmakers, who not only lag behind Toyota and Honda in _diesel_ development, but also have to endure the humiliation of a total wipe-out when it comes to hybrids.
Toyota is simply expanding the audience of Camry Hybrids by expanding the price range with which the buyers can option their cars.
Not only is Toyota, along with BMW, the most resepcted automaker among buyers, but they lead the league among car builders too.
Toyota not only manages their company better than the rest, but their relationships with other companies is also beyond reproach. When in doubt, it seems the other comapnies WANT TO work with, speak with, Toyota. :surprise:
GM, Ford, Lotus, Nissan, Porsche all have buddied up with Toyota.
Hyundai won't show any love. That's Ok.
'Nother qualude....
DrFill
No worries.
Conservative I am not. I don't know why people usually bend over backwards to hire me despite my admitted quirks (we used to just be called eccentric). Be glad you are not helping me look for a house. I am drawn to mid-century modern and want a 2 story library in the center. Good luck finding that combination.
If you have any more suggestions or advice, I am listening. Thanks in advance.
I didn't get that impression. Seemed to me like he had an idea of what he was looking for, but wanted some suggestions\advice from the experts around here. Trolls typically just pop in to say something incendiary, like "Lexus is just a rebadged Toyota, and anyone who buys one is an idiot", not ask for help, for in the trolls mind the troll already knows everything.
The old S80 is ok, but its only a midsize. The 2.9 was a bit of a slug, while the T6 had torque steer problems and some lag, although less than the peaky T5 in the S60. The 4-speed automatic certainly didn't help matters there. Also, the seats in the S80 were strangely uncomfortable, which is weird because Volvo seats are usually heavenly. '01-02 E430s are also cheap, and the E had more legroom and more trunk space than the S80. It also drove much better. The new S80 is a worthy alternative to the traditional German and Japanese players, but the old one was mostly an also-ran. Better than the 9-5, but that isn't saying much.
So why are all the awards going to European diesels?
So why does Toyota need Isuzu for diesel technology?
Are you referring to a Toyota Aygo with a 1.4L HDi diesel engine that produces only 54 hp? Unfortunately such an underpowered clean diesel is an engineering non-event. Obviously underpowered diesels tend to be cleaner than more powerful ones and the car companies like Toyota that sell the most undpowered diesels will ofcourse accomplish a clean diesels reputation. But I wouldn't call that much of an accomplishment.
Honda's a different story. The 2.2l diesel in the Accord and CRV are gems.
By cutting the price by $1K and eliminating thousands of dollars of options. Is that how you get a wider accessible audience. :confuse:
Conclusion: Those reduced hybrid productions costs just aint happening as planned. And as a result Toyota is worried about cannibalizing Camrys with lower margin hybrid Camrys. In order to maintain their margins they are selling instead a higher margin stripped hybrid Camry.
In 5 years, there probably will be 8-10 diesels in cars and SUVs, and they will save gas. And that's great. I'm all for it.
Hybrids have proven their value to Americans. Now it's diesel's turn.
BINGO! You're so right. It shocks me that I can agree with you sometimes.
I almost bought a hybrid Camry last year. A low profile car with a high tech drivetrain did excite me back then. And as you probably can recall (back then you were named CallMeDrFill) I was the most enthusiastic hyrbid Camry forum member at Edmunds. Unfortunately the hybrid Camry's trunk space had curbed my enthusiasm .
Oh how embarassing. A BMW brother admitting to almost buying a Camry.
(Just kidding, I admitted to liking the GS 450h, the drivetrain anyway.)
TM
(subscription required, so I'm posting the entire article for those that do not subscribe)
Buyers are bidding up prices of used vehicles with fuel-saving diesel engines, industry analysts say.
A diesel engine added about $1,000 to the roughly $50,000 sticker price of a new 2005 Mercedes E320 CDI sedan. Two years later, that option fetches $2,500 more at wholesale auctions than the gasoline-powered engine on the same model, the Black Book used-vehicle price guide reports.
"As American consumers, we're looking to get better fuel economy, but we still want that full-sized vehicle," says Black Book managing editor Ricky Beggs. "The technology is so much better today, and the versatility and the accessibility to get diesel fuel are there."
The Power Information Network estimates that U.S. consumers will buy more than 500,000 vehicles with diesel engines this year. The network predicts that figure will more than double by 2011.
Except for a few thousand Mercedes cars and Jeep Grand Cherokee SUVs, all diesels sold as new in the United States this year will be in heavy-duty pickups.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Premium diesel
Diesel engines are not only holding but increasing their value as an option on used vehicles. These are calculations of the percentage of value retained by diesel engines on 2-year-old vehicles, compared with when the 2005 models were sold as new.
2005 Model % of Retained value
Mercedes E320 CDI 250%
VW Jetta GLS 164%
Ford F-250 127%
VW New Beetle GLS 121%
Chevrolet Silverado 117%
Dodge Ram 2500 104%
Jeep Liberty 82%
Source: Black Book
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Gaining acceptance
But several automakers plan to introduce diesel-powered cars and light trucks to the United States by 2010. Strong resale values for used diesels signal consumer interest and acceptance, Beggs told Automotive News.
Of six 2005 models reviewed by Black Book, five showed increases in the value of their diesel engines in the used-car market. The sixth, the 2005 Jeep Liberty, has a diesel engine valued at $2,200 - 82 percent of its original sticker price, Black Book says.
John Blair, CEO of Automotive Lease Guide, agrees that diesel engines are appreciating but warns that could change. As automakers introduce more diesel-powered cars, he says, the growing supply of used diesel cars will ease prices.
"In the future, the value is going to be lower, given the greater volume of diesels being produced and the increased competition with hybrids," says Blair, whose company sets residual values for the auto industry.
Volkswagen of America Inc. says it will reintroduce diesel engines in its Jetta and other models next year. VW did not offer diesel engines in most 2007 models, while it modified its technology to meet U.S. emissions rules for new low-sulfur diesel fuel.
Supply and demand
Terrence Wynne, director of ana-lytical services at NADA Analytical Services Group, says VW's actions reduced the supply of new diesel-powered vehicles. That helped drive up prices of used diesels, he says.
An optional diesel engine added $1,220 to the base price of a new 2005 Jetta GLS, Black Book says. The diesel now commands roughly a $2,000 price premium for the same car as a used vehicle.
Diesels also are holding their own in the market for used heavy-duty trucks.
Automotive Lease Guide's Blair says a diesel engine typically adds $6,000 to the sticker price of a new full-sized pickup. After 36 months, he estimates, the diesel engines will keep 60 percent of their value as an option, while the trucks themselves will retain only 47 percent of their value.
Glenn Romines, a Ford-Lincoln-Mercury dealer in Houston, Mo., says he sells 7 to 10 used diesel pickups a month. This month, he says, he paid $23,000 for a 2002 Ford F-350 - about $2,000 more than its guidebook wholesale value.
Romines says he sold the truck for $24,500 - roughly $1,500 more than its prevailing retail price. He says: "It was a good deal for everybody."
TagMan
link title
TagMan
Don't get me started!
DrFill
In your dreams, Doc. (dude?)
While the current LS is considered an improvement over the previous LS, it is a long way from the distinctive styling of the S-Class.
The current LS and Camry have too much in common, from a style perspective to consider the LS a styling champion.
Vanilla is the Lexus flavor of the year.
TagMan
Isn't that a code word for "crappy"? Aren't Saabs "distinctive"?
I think the term was coined for the Infiniti J30, which looked like something the dog just left.
I hope the LS has a long way to go before it gets saddlebags. I always thought Mercedes should've made those optional. Maybe they'll drop them next year, and lower the price, to get some sales back from Lexus, yes? :P
DrFill
Tagman
DrFill
LOL...good one.
The Genesis is darn good looking, at least the pics are. I hope it translates in real life. I wonder why they chose to copy the LS rather than the S or 7? I guess imitation really is the most sincere form of flattery!!
Put a nice diesel in that Genesis, give me that nice 6 year warranty, and I am all over it!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It has a lot of make-up on. But it works.
I've fought this battle before. This car is alright, but people expecting Chrysler 300 level sales need to wake up. Hyundai needs to build their brand more, and if they want to be over $30k, they need to do it right, and get a luxury marque together.
DrFill
Houdini, you wanted to know why they chose the LS to go after here? That is because Hyundai has made Lexus/Toyota enemy number one. Look at the hugely amuzing(and somewhat cheezy) Veracruz and RX commercial adds. You have to look no further than the Azera going head to head with the Avalon, and is amazingly adept in doing so.
But with the Genesis, I also see them attacking the Infiniti M head on. I see a lot of this built into the car to. They both offer big V-6 power(altho, BMW has made 300hp the norm in the mid-lux class) as well as punchy V8's.
I do love Hyundai's newfound strength. As cocky as it may sound or look, it is paying great dividends on their behalf. The Veracruz and Azera are selling extremely well, beating Hyundai's forecast, and selling at a not-that-much off sticker from the competition. The Sante Fe is comfortable. If they touch up the Sonata with a mid-cycle refresh next year, then they'll be on the right track.
1500-1800 units a month is not worth a pat on the back, especially when Sonata sales are in freefall. The Camry redesign has clearly crippled any modest gains made by the Sonata, and that won't change in the near future.
MT takes a hit by pushing the Veracruz over the RX, having read the article. MT has made many questionable calls, maybe for shock value recently, including a 5.3 Silverado over a 5.7 Tundra, and G37 over 335i. :surprise:
Hyundai, for the last tow years, has wanted 500k sales a year, or more, and for the second straight year, sales are flat, and they will nbot reach their goal.
Hyundai needs to rethink their market strategy, and advertising campaigns. And where Genesis will take them.
Hyundai has a lot of work to do. Their line-up is virtually all-new, and sales have not responded. :sick:
DrFill
I am not surprised to see the MB E320 diesel on the top of that Retained Value list. It feels like almost every other E Class model I see is a diesel in Canada.
If Copyrightatty likes longetivity I would definitely recommend a MB E320 diesel.